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Do you have to stop HRT before FFS?

Started by NataliaDoll, March 01, 2016, 02:20:11 PM

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NataliaDoll

Hey everyone I plan on getting a few FFS procedures in a few months I didn't schedule it yet so I haven't asked him all my questions yet but I want to know from your knowledge/experience if you would have to stop hormones prior to surgery? If so how long I've heard a week and I've heard two weeks. I know it's not a long time but I'm scared to go off hormones before surgery but I heard it can raise blood clot risk during surgery. I don't want anything to get masculine on me. I got a nosejob 6 months ago and didn't go off hormones.
  •  

Dena

As always, you need to ask your doctor about hormones. Being off them a few weeks should have little effect on you if you have been on them for a long time. Blockers may cause aesthesia issues and HRT can cause dangerous clots or cause complications in healing. If the doctor isn't concerned about HRT then you don't need to stop.
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  •  

archlord

My surgeon made me stop cyproterone acetate 15 day before surgery and estrace 10 day before surgery ,

Follow doctor reccommendation like always
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NataliaDoll

Oh okay :( I'm just dramatic also so I would be thinking about not taking my hormones everyday lol. I've been on them for over a year now
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KayXo

Risks are present if immobilized for some time.

Bio-identical estradiol taken non-orally negligibly affects clotting (ciswomen undergo operations including Caesarian and produce estradiol non-orally, sometimes in very high amounts as during pregnancy). Spironolactone may interact with anesthesia and affect electrolytes adversely if mineral infusion during and post-op.  Cyproterone acetate slightly affects clotting. Bio-identical progesterone, dutasteride/finasteride, don't. LhRh agonists also don't.

I continued taking progesterone, finasteride, a small dose of sublingual estradiol and bicalutamide. I stopped cyproterone acetate 4 or 6 weeks before SRS.

Best bet is to check with a hematologist who should be the expert in these matters.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Paula1

#5
Hiya,

Some surgeons say you should, some say you don't need to. Also all depends on the type of surgery you are having.

When I had my original FFS in 2004, I came off them 2 weeks beforehand.

When I had my revision FFS in October 2014, I reduced the amount I was applying from the usual 2mg a day to 1mg a day for the final two weeks and then stopped altogether 4-5 days before the surgery.

BUT as I am having much longer surgery with Facial Team on April 6th, I asked these questions. When I have their reply, I'll let you know. I am having complex forehead reconstruction and complex revision rhinoplasty.

Mod edit: No dosage information, plus Levothyroxine is a dangerous drug so don't go giving out dosages on that either. For all issues relating to HRT and surgery people should follow the direction and advice of their endo and surgeon only.
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Christine Eryn

I think HRT thins your blood, so it might be a good idea to double check with your surgeon. My first FFS I was under for 8+ hours. I went off HRT for 2 weeks prior per my surgeon's orders and didn't notice any side effects. I followed all instructions to a T and I turned out great.  ;D
"There was a sculptor, and he found this stone, a special stone. He dragged it home and he worked on it for months, until he finally finished. When he was ready he showed it to his friends and they said he had created a great statue. And the sculptor said he hadn't created anything, the statue was always there, he just cleared away the small peices." Rambo III
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KayXo

Quote from: Christine Eryn on March 02, 2016, 07:17:44 PM
I think HRT thins your blood

The opposite. It increases clotting of the blood, hence raising risk of thrombosis BUT, as explained earlier, this depends on what exactly you are taking. It's important to differentiate.

My opinion and in my experience...most surgeons DON'T seem to differentiate between what poses a risk and what doesn't. They group everything together and will often recommend to stop everything without any further thought about it. I think this is unprofessional, selfish and harmful to the patient as some can certainly continue taking and not have to suffer through the withdrawal effects. Think of ciswomen who have estrogen in their bodies and undergo surgeries. When one takes estrogen non-orally, we are equivalent to ciswomen.  This is why I recommend talking to a hematologist as they are the experts in these matters.

I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Debra

Yeah it really depends. For a few of my surgeries the docs weren't concerned about the Estrogen but they were concerned about baby aspirin and if I was taking the baby aspirin to counter-effect the clotting of estrogen then I would have to stop both.

But otherwise, the estrogen alone was fine.

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NataliaDoll

I see that some of you have continued the hormones prior to surgery. I just really don't want to worry about coming off them every time I get a surgery. I take estrodial and spiro. I'm having ffs about 5 surgeries at once so I'm sure it will take a long time.
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KayXo

I also continued taking them through gallbladder surgery. Doctor wasn't concerned after I explained it to him.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Rachel

I was told to discontinue E, T, aspirin and vitamin E for 2 weeks prior the my planned FFS. I stated I am on E IM on a 10 day cycle (I stated the dose) and asked if I can take my IM 2 weeks before. They will get back to me.
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NataliaDoll

Hmm interesting how some have continued and some have discontinued. It seems that doctors just pay attention to it more than others I don't know. Also I wonder if the way you take hormones would determine the doctors decision. For example pills injection patches
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KayXo

#13
Quote from: Rachel Lynn on March 05, 2016, 04:31:32 PM
I was told to discontinue E, T, aspirin and vitamin E for 2 weeks prior the my planned FFS. I stated I am on E IM on a 10 day cycle (I stated the dose) and asked if I can take my IM 2 weeks before. They will get back to me.

Think about it. Ciswomen have E in their bodies. Their E is secreted directly from within. Does your situation differ? If not, why can they still undergo surgery and you cannot unless you stop E? Something doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying to go against what they advise but just to think about it...it's important to question things in life. :)

Quote from: NataliaDoll on March 08, 2016, 12:00:18 AM
Hmm interesting how some have continued and some have discontinued. It seems that doctors just pay attention to it more than others I don't know. Also I wonder if the way you take hormones would determine the doctors decision. For example pills injection patches

Yes! But many doctors don't understand this. When E is taken non-orally, it need not pass through the intestines, portal vein and liver first before ending up in the blood. It is directly delivered to the blood. The problem with having to pass through the intestines-portal vein-liver is that when estrogen streams down the portal vein, it triggers clotting factors, modifies the production of proteins with the net result of increased coagulation although this effect is much less in the case of bio-identical estradiol because it is less likely to pass through the portal vein a second time and a third time before it is eliminated by the body because it is easily metabolized by the body VS non bio-identical estrogens that have a more complex, unfamiliar molecule structure, harder to metabolize and thus being more likely to stream through the portal vein AGAIN and AGAIN, modifying clotting factors several times so that coagulation is much more significantly affected.

E taken non-orally, does eventually return to the liver but two things must be considered:
1) only a small fraction of it goes through it
2) it enters the liver through a different vein where clotting factors are not triggered BUT it can be reabsorbed with the bile in intestines, and then stream down the portal vein (called enterohepatic circulation).

In the end, non-oral E has a negligible impact on clotting. This is why studies in which men with prostate cancer (aged 49-91) were administered high doses of bio-identical E non-orally found no increase in risk in thrombosis, this is why DVT risk remains so low in pregnant women despite extremely high levels of E, up to 75,000 pg/ml, this is why in a study with transsexual women, despite 17 women being on a high dose of intramuscular E, no occurrence of DVT was observed, this is why despite my high levels in the range of 1,000-4,000 pg/ml through intramuscular injection, my clotting factors remain NORMAL.

The longer you are immobilized, the higher the risk of clots gets. Thinking that all estrogens are the same, despite their different molecular structures or route of administration, they assume estrogen will further add to this risk. So, it's asked to be stopped. 

Non-oral E is duplicating the way in which ciswomen get their E. The molecule is identical and makes it directly to the blood. So, if we take non-oral E, and if ciswomen can undergo surgery with E inside of them secreted, why are we told we must stop the E while ciswomen haven't this dilemma? Because, I am sorry to say, of some doctor's ignorance about this matter. As always though, follow doctor's instructions. You can however try and bring this to the doctor's attention. Perhaps, they will concede you are right but fear clouds the mind...fear of getting sued if anything goes wrong, fear of complications that is not justified if this part of human physiology is understood and common sense is adhered to.

Hope this clears up things. :)



I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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KayXo

Minerva Endocrinol. 1989 Jan-Mar;14(1):41-4.

"One example of a drug whose action varies according to the mode of administration adopted is offered by the estrogens which may be given orally (estradiol valerianate, estriol, conjugated estrogens, etc.) or parenterally (estradiol valerianate intramuscularly; conjugated estrogens and estriol vaginally, estradiol as a skin gel, by subcutaneous implant or transdermally). Blood concentrations of estradiol and estrogen after the same dose vary considerably according to the administration mode adopted so that doses may have to be adjusted in order to achieve the same levels of the circulating hormone. Having no first pass effect on the liver, parenteral administrations have less influence than oral ones on the synthesis of certain proteins by the liver (increased SHBG, CBG, TBG, transferrin, ceruloplasmin, angiotensinogen, clotting factors VII, IX, X and X complex; decreased antithrombin III and anti Xa) and on lipid metabolism (increased biliary cholesterol, triglycerides and HDL, especially HDL2; reduced LDL). In particular, it has been found that estradiol (differently from other estrogens) when administered transdermally is able to relieve menopausal symptoms at doses which do not influence the liver synthesis of proteins."

Prostate 1989;14(4):389-95

"Oral administration of synthetic estrogens has profound effects on
liver-derived plasma proteins, coagulation factors, lipoproteins, and
triglycerides, whereas parenteral administration of native estradiol
has very little influence on these aspects of liver function.
"

Here, oral administration of synthetic estrogens means non bio-identical estrogens taken orally.

Thromb Haemost. 2001 Apr;85(4):619-25.

"In summary, oral estradiol increased markers of fibrinolytic activity, decreased serum soluble E-selectin levels and induced potentially antiatherogenic changes in lipids and lipoproteins. In contrast to these beneficial effects, oral estradiol changed markers of coagulation towards hypercoagulability, and increased serum CRP concentrations. Transdermal estradiol or placebo had no effects on any of these parameters. ยป

"the oral route of estradiol administration rather than the circulating free estradiol concentration is critical for any changes to be observed."

Interestingly, oral E had some paradoxical effects, on one hand, increasing fibrinolysis which is the process whereby clots break down and changing other markers towards increasing coagulability. Improving atherogenic markers and worsening some others.

Maturitas. 2008 Jul-Aug;60(3-4):185-201.

"Non-orally administered estrogens, minimizing the hepatic induction of clotting factors and others proteins associated with the first-pass effect, are associated with potential advantages on the cardiovascular system. In particular, the risk of developing deep vein thrombosis or pulmonary thromboembolism is negligible in comparison to that associated with oral estrogens."

Obstet Gynecol Clin North Am. 1987 Mar;14(1):269-98.

"The amount of estradiol leaving the liver following oral administration is substantially less than that which enters it through the portal vein. The systemic administration of estradiol avoids this initial hepatic metabolism. Furthermore, only 25 per cent of nonorally administered estrogen will go to the liver at each pass, and nonhepatic tissues would be exposed to a greater extent than after oral administration. Thus, peripheral administration of estradiol reduces the exaggerated hepatic responses in comparison to nonhepatic actions."

Climacteric. 2012 Apr;15 Suppl 1:11-7.

"There is a wealth of evidence to suggest that, unlike oral estrogens, transdermal estradiol does not increase the risk of venous thromboembolism, probably due to its lack of effect on the coagulation cascade, including thrombin generation and resistance to activated protein C, and does not increase the risk of stroke."

Rev Prat. 1993 Dec 15;43(20):2631-7.

"Until now, the possible risk of thrombo-embolism has limited the prophylactic use of hormonotherapy and imposed contraindications. This risk is due to imbalance in hepatic (procoagulant effect) and peripheral (fibrinolytic effect) stimulations and therefore is to be feared specifically with oral oestrogens and their hepatic first-pass effect."

"On the other hand, there is no known theoretical risk when oestradiol is given parenterally"

Prz Menopauzalny. 2014 Oct;13(5):267-72.

"Observational studies have not found an association between an increased risk of VTE and transdermal estrogen treatment regardless of women's age and body mass index (BMI)."

It is important to realize also that oral estrogens referred to in studies most often refer to NON BIO-IDENTICAL estrogen.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

JLT1

Congratulations KayXo.  You have just quoted more literature studies than most surgeons will ever read in their 30+ years of practice....

You are absolutely correct...

Hugs

Jen
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
  •  

NataliaDoll

Quote from: KayXo on March 08, 2016, 03:08:33 PM
Think about it. Ciswomen have E in their bodies. Their E is secreted directly from within. Does your situation differ? If not, why can they still undergo surgery and you cannot unless you stop E? Something doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying to go against what they advise but just to think about it...it's important to question things in life. :)

Yes! But many doctors don't understand this. When E is taken non-orally, it need not pass through the intestines, portal vein and liver first before ending up in the blood. It is directly delivered to the blood. The problem with having to pass through the intestines-portal vein-liver is that when estrogen streams down the portal vein, it triggers clotting factors, modifies the production of proteins with the net result of increased coagulation although this effect is much less in the case of bio-identical estradiol because it is less likely to pass through the portal vein a second time and a third time before it is eliminated by the body because it is easily metabolized by the body VS non bio-identical estrogens that have a more complex, unfamiliar molecule structure, harder to metabolize and thus being more likely to stream through the portal vein AGAIN and AGAIN, modifying clotting factors several times so that coagulation is much more significantly affected.

E taken non-orally, does eventually return to the liver but two things must be considered:
1) only a small fraction of it goes through it
2) it enters the liver through a different vein where clotting factors are not triggered BUT it can be reabsorbed with the bile in intestines, and then stream down the portal vein (called enterohepatic circulation).

In the end, non-oral E has a negligible impact on clotting. This is why studies in which men with prostate cancer (aged 49-91) were administered high doses of bio-identical E non-orally found no increase in risk in thrombosis, this is why DVT risk remains so low in pregnant women despite extremely high levels of E, up to 75,000 pg/ml, this is why in a study with transsexual women, despite 17 women being on a high dose of intramuscular E, no occurrence of DVT was observed, this is why despite my high levels in the range of 1,000-4,000 pg/ml through intramuscular injection, my clotting factors remain NORMAL.

The longer you are immobilized, the higher the risk of clots gets. Thinking that all estrogens are the same, despite their different molecular structures or route of administration, they assume estrogen will further add to this risk. So, it's asked to be stopped. 

Non-oral E is duplicating the way in which ciswomen get their E. The molecule is identical and makes it directly to the blood. So, if we take non-oral E, and if ciswomen can undergo surgery with E inside of them secreted, why are we told we must stop the E while ciswomen haven't this dilemma? Because, I am sorry to say, of some doctor's ignorance about this matter. As always though, follow doctor's instructions. You can however try and bring this to the doctor's attention. Perhaps, they will concede you are right but fear clouds the mind...fear of getting sued if anything goes wrong, fear of complications that is not justified if this part of human physiology is understood and common sense is adhered to.

Hope this clears up things. :)

Hi KayXo thanks so much for explaining that. you are so right it totally makes sense. I have heard someone mention that non Oral E runs differently in the body. I also think that the doctors are ignorant about this topic and just demand you to come off hormones because most don't know this information. I will follow my doctors instructions obviously but I really don't see a reason with coming off hormones and will for sure switch to injections if that's the case.
  •  

KayXo

Quote from: NataliaDoll on March 08, 2016, 10:19:27 PM
I have heard someone mention that non Oral E runs differently in the body.

How so? Studies have shown non-oral E to have much less effects on coagulation and that when given, even in larger doses to men with prostate cancer (and transsexual women, including me) clotting risk is not increased. The evidence is out there, one just needs to be aware of it. ;)
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

michelle82

Facial Team did not require me to stop E or spiro. They did inject me with a anti-clotting medicine prior to the surgery.


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  •  

NataliaDoll

Quote from: michelle82 on March 10, 2016, 06:49:28 PM
Facial Team did not require me to stop E or spiro. They did inject me with a anti-clotting medicine prior to the surgery.


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That's great and makes much more sense Michelle. Can I ask you who your doctor was?
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