Can we separate femininity from female and masculinity from male?

[Tessa James]

As a non binary trans person I am sometimes troubled with assertions that suggest behavior or mannerisms or clothing validates being a transgender female or male.  Hopefully we all agree that our gender identity is ours alone to validate.

Gender identity is distinct and separate IMO from gendered roles and behavior.  Being part of the LGBTQ community for all of my adult life has introduced me to fabulously feminine men and masculine women who are gay/lesbian/bi and straight but not transgender. 

Because I appeared to be a sissy boy in my youth or played with dolls, or sit when I pee is not some sort of proof of being transgender.   Being a transgender woman, man or none of the above, allows us the freedoms to present as we will.  This is the core of creating and honoring diversity.

My personal vision of being female is very inclusive and yet shaped by my own stereotypes too.  Gender Identity is so intrinsic that most of us have trouble describing what that means without describing cultural gender roles as validation.

So how do you look at femininity and masculinity in respect to being transgender?  Does it matter?

[Emily.P]

It is a difficult question, especially for non-binary people. I try to be natural yet, I have certain upbringing and skills which will remain with me, no matter what. At times, I hate the gender roles - and about a year ago I could not imagine myself to conform to them - now, I would not say that I conform 100% but I tend to take them into consideration. Another thing might be that I am quite tomboyish in my expression, yet it still feels natural and allows me to blend in.
I would say, try to work out a compromise for Yourself, see what the HRT will have to say about it (because it does, even if we dont want it to ) and... try to enjoy?

[Peep]

I 100% agree that clothes/interests and mannerisms don't have anything to do with what makes you a certain gender and I am pretty tired of being asked what kinds of toys i played with as a child. i played almost entirely with animal toys but that doesn't make me a lion

However I do have a lot of associations with very binary ideas of ~male and ~female that can contribute to/ help to soften my dysphoria, and just today I didn't buy running shoes cause the only ones that fit me were in what i felt would be seen as 'girly' colours (pastels) despite the fact that I actually like those colours. It's less that I believe that as a male I can't wear them, but more that i won't be SEEN as male if I wear them, and I'm not comfortable being seen as female.

I'm more male by default of being sure that I'm not female, but I'm also not happy with the non-binary label, and i feel that only using the label because it would make others more comfortable if i decided i wanted to wear a dress or decorate my room with flowers isn't productive

[Lynne]

I have struggled with that topic a lot. I tried to inspect gender identity from all angles possible when I tried to make sense of my feelings and in the end I didn't have any solid foundation to base anything on which held me back greatly as I was in doubt for years.

What I mean is if you don't use any stereotypes and generalizations to define your gender you will end up in a place where you cannot strictly tell what is really feminine or masculine. These labels are made up by humanity and have very little sense if you really think about it.

You can only say that most males or females tend to be like this or that, they tend to look and present themselves a certain way as certain biological and social factors tend to strengthen certain characteristics.

I cannot even tell what is a woman or if I'm one if I take away every social construct, every feature a woman's body may have. If I have to choose, and currently I do have to choose for my own sake, I'd like to be recognized as a woman even though I don't really know what that is exactly but neither does any other women, they just live and never think about it.

Making this whole big deal about gender is silly. I shouldn't even need to really 'transition' in an ideal world as these harsh and dividing gender roles would not exist at all. Of course there are some biological facts that act as barrier for some things but why not just look at them that way and separate gender from sex completely?
But these stereotypes and labels have their roots embedded so deeply that I'm not sure if they will ever disappear completely.

[cindianna_jones]

A great kiss tells me all I want to know.

[suzifrommd]

So how do you look at femininity and masculinity in respect to being transgender?  Does it matter?

My gender generally pushes me in the direction of femininity. Being feminine feels good, I think because my brain wants me to be female, so it looks for signs of femininity to validate that I've gotten there.

I don't know if cis women feel the same draw. I often wonder that.

[RobynD]

I totally agree its separate and the most feminine person in the world can be a man and the reverse too. Our brains and the brains of the less gender aware in particular crave categories because it is a less tiring thought process than nuance.

I think i am fairly "tomgirl" like but my wife thinks i am very feminine. Different people perceive the same person as different things too.

[Peep]

My gender generally pushes me in the direction of femininity. Being feminine feels good, I think because my brain wants me to be female, so it looks for signs of femininity to validate that I've gotten there.

I don't know if cis women feel the same draw. I often wonder that.

I've read about/ heard some cis women talk about feeling affirmed by their curves, breasts, underwear, motherhood, etc... it's only when trans women talk about these things do they start to find a problem with it

[2ghosts]

Think I'm split down the middle or 65/35 (not sure which side wins). would be amazing if society had that kind of shift but certainly not holding my breath this decade

[Jacqueline]

Think I'm split down the middle or 65/35 (not sure which side wins). would be amazing if society had that kind of shift but certainly not holding my breath this decade

Tessa James,

Sorry to hi jack for a moment.

I wanted to welcome 2ghosts.

This is a supportive site with people who have a lot of experiences and ideas to share.

I am posting some links that include welcoming information and the sites rules. If you have not had a chance, please look them over:

Things that you should read

Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By	Standard Terms & Definitions	Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar)
Reputation rules	News posting & quoting guidelines	Photo, avatars, & signature images policy

Welcome to Susan's. Look around, ask questions and continue to join in. Hope you find what you are looking for here.

With warmth,

Joanna

[arice]

My gender generally pushes me in the direction of femininity. Being feminine feels good, I think because my brain wants me to be female, so it looks for signs of femininity to validate that I've gotten there.

I don't know if cis women feel the same draw. I often wonder that.

They do. That was one of the first things that clued me (and my family) in to the fact that I wasn't a cis woman... All the things that other girls delighted in, I despised in myself. Puberty was a cruel lesson in self loathing for me but the girls around me were joyful about it.

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[RobynD]

I have noticed that some forms of my feminine expression that definitely destroy dysphoria are not ultra-feminine things by many estimates.

Just a simple one like shaving my legs was big for me, even before HRT.

[Peep]

They do. That was one of the first things that clued me (and my family) in to the fact that I wasn't a cis woman... All the things that other girls delighted in, I despised in myself. Puberty was a cruel lesson in self loathing for me but the girls around me were joyful about it.

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I felt this too, but it was muddied by the fact that society also expects teenage girls to hate themselves and I did

[Tessa James]

Thank you for these fascinating insights.  I imagine many of us tire of the expectations, voiced or implied that our level of femininity or masculinity keeps us out of the game.  No doubt there are millions of cisgender people who also feel less than enough of something to be that stereotypical man or woman.

I just love strong women and sensitive men.  We use all kinds of descriptors and qualifiers to share our identity.  I was at a concert last night that featured a block long line for the women's restroom.  Talk about diversity on parade!  And then one of the women just smiled and boldly walked in to the men's room with no line.  One of the guys explained how she walked in, smiled and shut her stall door with no problem.  Gee maybe we can get a bit more sophisticated about this?

We have heard concerns from many trans people on these pages about feeling rejection due to the fact that "i ride a motorcycle, wear plaid or am too big to be a girl or not tall enough to be a man".  Rubbish to not reinforce!  there is room and love enough for all of us.

Joanne I like the tangential take offs that happen here and am always happy to see new members

I deal with my own stereotypes frequently.  I am a trail hiker and need some new hiking boots but will not look at anything less than pink or purple options.  I know that's silly and doesn't really make me anymore male or female but it's part of finding my sweet spot in the spectrum.  Peep explained that nicely.

Cindy Jones would you really kiss and tell?  After reading your book I imagined you as so very discreet   Like Lynn, I had enough doubts about all of this that it too held me back, for decades!  And dear Suzi, so glad we connected. 

I greatly appreciate hearing from the guys here and love to get your perspectives.  Thanks all!

[Asche]

As someone who never did get what "male" or "female" meant beyond anatomy, this is in one respect a non-issue for me.  For myself, I just want to be myself and do what I enjoy and avoid stuff that rubs me the wrong way, and to me it's a no-brainer that other people would want to be who they are and do what they enjoy, etc.  When I'm by myself, I mostly don't think about associating things with "male" or "female", other than anatomy.  For this very reason, I have always needed a lot of time away from other people.

In another respect, though, I have to deal with a society that has all kinds of weird and messed-up associations between anatomy (innie vs. outie) and all kinds of stuff, and can make your life rather unpleasant if you cross the arbitrary lines they've set up.  My inability as a child to be the person that everybody required me to be, based on my anatomy, was their excuse to make my life hell (a hell that I haven't yet managed to completely leave behind me.)  So, at least for most of my life (which I lived as male), I haven't so much avoided "feminine" stuff as avoided getting caught doing feminine stuff.

But especially in the last 10-20 years, I started experimented with doing individual "feminine" things where other people could see them, so I could see just how much I could get away with.  If people aren't going to make my life hell for it, I don't care whether it's "masculine" or "feminine."

I'm more or less familiar with what society calls "feminine" and "masculine," and I've noticed that a lot of what I like is labelled "feminine" and a lot of what I don't is called "masculine."  So, for me, a big part of transition is about having society pigeonhole me in a box where there are fewer things I like that I have to fight society over.  And a box where people who I want to relate to will feel less inhibited about relating to me the way I'd like them to.

Basically, in my mind, I don't link "femininity" and "female", etc.  But I'm too old and have been through too much to want to fight society to get them to loosen up their definitions.