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Femme

Started by Jonathan L, March 30, 2016, 11:22:00 PM

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Jonathan L

So I've noticed over the years trying to figure out my gender that I don't really fit the typical transguy narrative. I've always preferred hanging out with girls/women (although I did have a lot more male friends when I was a kid), I loved a lot of typically girly things as a kid (Disney movies, barbies, floofy dresses, fairies) and as an adult a lot of my interests are still very feminine and, while I've always loved menswear, I also like dresses and skirts and corsets (I think if I wasn't so shy I would love to do drag someday when I can pass as male). I also did/do like a lot of things that are considered more stereotypically masculine, but I think my femininity has always been more noticeable to people. Anyway, I just think of myself as a fairly femme mostly gay transman and I've had enough years of physical and social dysphoria to feel pretty confident that I am indeed trans.

My problem is that other people don't necessarily get that. Specifically, I'm worried about convincing parents and family members. I came out to my parents last week and they accept me, but my mother especially is having a hard time accepting that I'm really trans because I've always been so feminine. I've been wanting to find my parents some info about transmen so they can learn more, but all the narratives I see describe transmen as hating feminine clothes and toys and activities and gravitating towards masculine clothes and toys and activities. So I guess I'm afraid that if I show them any of this info they'll just see this as further proof that I can't really be trans because I don't look or act like a more masculine transman. Does that make sense? I guess I'm just wondering if other femme guys have struggled with this and have any advice. I really wish the majority of information on being transgender didn't focus so exclusively on gender stereotypes :(
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Elis

I'm the same way. I loved Disney when I was little and dressing up as an angel in a school Christmas play. And I still like dresses and skirts. I live with my dad at the moment and am very cautious about acting fem around him because he might question the way I identify. I can't wait until the T makes me look undoubtedly male so I can be as fem as I like.
As for your parents I'd tell them that some cis guys are femme; so why should it be any different for trans men. That should stop them in their tracks. There are also some fem ftms on tumblr so you could show their blogs to your parents to let them know there are others like you.
They/them pronouns preferred.



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Peep

If they met a cis guy who was into Disney, would they tell him that he HAD to transition to female? Probably not... most people do eventually accept that the way things like colours and movies are gendered are more social constructions than anything else
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FtMitch

I like femme stuff.  Always have.  I also like masculine stuff--my parents didn't try and press one or the other on me.  I was allowed to love My Little Pony and Teenage Mutang Ninja Turtles.  I loved clothes and dresses.  I honestly don't think it's that uncommon.  Doesn't mean you're not a guy--it just means things that our society would like to define as feminine entertain you.
(Started T November 4, 2015)
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MercenaryElf

Quote from: Jonathan L on March 30, 2016, 11:22:00 PM
I've been wanting to find my parents some info about transmen so they can learn more, but all the narratives I see describe transmen as hating feminine clothes and toys and activities and gravitating towards masculine clothes and toys and activities. So I guess I'm afraid that if I show them any of this info they'll just see this as further proof that I can't really be trans because I don't look or act like a more masculine transman. Does that make sense? I guess I'm just wondering if other femme guys have struggled with this and have any advice. I really wish the majority of information on being transgender didn't focus so exclusively on gender stereotypes :(

It makes perfect sense -- there's no one way to be a guy, but that can be hard to explain to someone who may not believe that you're "really" trans because you don't fit the stereotype.

I naturally have a lot of masculine mannerisms, have always adored menswear, and was thrilled in my teens to pass my collection of Hot Wheels on to my baby brother, which he played with while we watched Batman and Sonic cartoons together.  But I also didn't violently reject every aspect of being raised as a girl.  I have some guilty feminine pleasures (my world stops when the ballroom scene comes on in Labyrinth).  Also, I went through a misguided year just before coming out to myself where I tried to "cure" my sense that I'm not a woman by looking very feminine, which is something I haven't seen so far in the transman narratives I've been finding, and has been brought up as a strike against me by everyone I've come out to so far.

Maybe our best "proof" to others that we're trans is in how we carry ourselves through life as we transition.  I keep telling myself that one day, I'll have the experience and story to help make things a little easier for other guys struggling with the issues I face now.  Until then, I wish you luck (I'm really glad to hear that your parents accept you), and would be interested in knowing if you find any relevant narratives that help.
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Dena

You need to understand that while there is a common thread in being transgender, everybody has a different story. You may not have seen stories about trans men attempting to burry their feeling by being more feminine but I have seen a few. The mirror image of MTF has stories were men marry, body build or get tattoos to appear more masculine only to finally yield to their femininity. You need to make this decision on what you feel and not what you think. Logic will tell you you are safer staying where you are but if you do, you will never have the happiness that you deserve.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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FtMitch

Quote from: MercenaryElf on March 31, 2016, 10:39:09 PM
Also, I went through a misguided year just before coming out to myself where I tried to "cure" my sense that I'm not a woman by looking very feminine, which is something I haven't seen so far in the transman narratives I've been finding, and has been brought up as a strike against me by everyone I've come out to so far.

I definitely agree with Dena--I have actually met quite a few trans guys who went out of their way to be more feminine to try and "fix" what society was telling them was a fault.  You are not alone!  I wasn't hyper feminine in the way I acted, but I definitely dressed in a way that was hyper feminine in hopes that it would make me feel less "dude-ish" (which is how I always described how I felt before I figured out I was trans), though it never did.  I don't think it's uncommon, though.  I think that it's simply easier societally for AFAB individuals to take on masculine traits and not face discrimination before coming out as trans than it is for AMAB people, meaning that fewer AFAB individuals resort to trying to "up their femme quotient" prior to coming out as trans in order to make themselves feel as if they fit a mold than might if there was the same kind of stigma on female assigned people wearing pants as there is on male assigned people wearing dresses.
(Started T November 4, 2015)
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AnxietyDisord3r

Jonathan,

Your post reminded me of the environment when I came out 17 years ago, when everyone who identified as trans felt the need to justify themselves to everyone: the straight world, the gay world, and the psychologists who controlled the gates to HRT using a perverse, outmoded, and downright cruel set of guidelines. I was trying to pass without hormones which really sucked for me and wondering if I was 'really trans' because I hadn't been suicidal and committed to the psych ward like my friend who was on hormones.

I have a theory that when toddlers name their gender identity and find out about what they means, they tend to go into a phase of "rah, rah, team, go!" Some adults have never left this infantile phase. What I mean is that "boys are supposed to do this", "girls are supposed to do that". Who came up with these stupid rules? Read Maxim or even Men's Health and it's dripping with this sort of insecurity that if you don't man right you'll be a loser or a girl. (Insecurity sells goods and keeps magazines in business.)

As trans guys we have a totally legitimate fear of being exposed and hurt by bad people, but trust me, plenty of cis males are so invested in "I'm a member of a TEAM!" that they spend precious hours of their life stressing about whether they "pass" as "normal" or "good enough".

MercenaryElf,

What you said about attempting to reject the masculine is amazing to me because I have definitely heard trans women talk about doing this. And in fact, Caitlin Jenner faces a lot of talk from ignorant people about how "he was such a manly man"* yadda yadda. (So was Rock Hudson and he was gay, remember that? D'oh.)

*-the misgendering is part and parcel of this discourse

FTMitch,

I think you're exactly right. Our society elevates masculinity (when it's not flogging it as the baseline, "normal", benchmark) and denigrates femininity. I was in STEM for a while, so you know where I'm coming from. (I'm a bus driver now. More ugly, open sexual harassment, yet, oddly, less implicit assumption that women can't drive. Even feminine women.) I was usually perceived as more on the masculine side by others and experienced that privilege. (Not implying that I passed, it's more that I was rewarded for reflecting society's Platonic ideal of a person by dealing from the masculine deck.) On the flip side, I had friends in college and now who were AMAB but very feminine or effeminate and punished for it a lot.

My wife and I have another theory about why trans people and bi people are looked at askance by society but in different ways for AFAB and AMAB. If I have time I might come back and expound on it.
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Kylo

Yeah, I heard it's a common problem for people, from their therapists not saying they're masc enough (mine asked about my hair and I countered it by asking her how it should look and she didn't want to stick her neck out and say) to people looking for behavioral "justifications" for transness all the way back into one's childhood. The same sort of people who would perhaps not even question the behavior of a gay or campy cis man, questioning the behavior of someone who has what is essentially a kind of hybrid brain due to the developmental effects of transness and is quite likely to display a variety of behaviors because they have a variety of biological influences acting on them. 

But - it's your life not theirs. If they don't think you're masc enough... well, it's not up to them.

I'm not especially fem in look or what I do, but even I get accused of acting it if I run my hand through my hair or something. Honestly I think it's just other people and their issues, you don't have an issue. You are what you are, and you know what you are, so it's their problem not yours.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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graspthesanity

Hey, you can show them me! Haha. I loved Disney, I would be dressed up as a princess to Halloween all the time, I loved the dresses and I still do. I've also thought about drag once I transition, because I still do make up, I still wear dresses and skirts and whatnot. Also, I had an unhealthy obsession with dolls which I still until this day. I wanted to be a fashion designer, but when you think of it, it all falls under gay stereotypes, so that's what calms me down. I loved the colour pink so badly as a child that I would dress up in entire pink outfits, I'm not kidding. Yet at the same time I desperately wanted to be a boy. So, you're surely not alone in this!

Jonathan L

Quote from: Elis on March 31, 2016, 04:38:32 AM
There are also some fem ftms on tumblr so you could show their blogs to your parents to let them know there are others like you.
I was actually thinking of making a list of some of the more feminine transguys out there so she could see some examples, lol. I don't know if it'll help, but at least she'll know I'm not an anomaly ;)

Quote from: Peep on March 31, 2016, 08:03:47 AM
If they met a cis guy who was into Disney, would they tell him that he HAD to transition to female?
That's a really good point!

Quote from: FtMitch on March 31, 2016, 10:25:13 AM
I was allowed to love My Little Pony and Teenage Mutang Ninja Turtles.
Hah! I loved both those shows too. :)

Quote from: MercenaryElf on March 31, 2016, 10:39:09 PM
I have some guilty feminine pleasures (my world stops when the ballroom scene comes on in Labyrinth). 

Maybe our best "proof" to others that we're trans is in how we carry ourselves through life as we transition.  I keep telling myself that one day, I'll have the experience and story to help make things a little easier for other guys struggling with the issues I face now. 
Oh god, I love that scene in Labyrinth! I think that's one thing that makes me feel more accepting of my femininity, wanting to help make things easier for other guys. As in, I can be the kind of man that I want to be instead of being what other people want, and by doing so maybe others can look at me and say, "Well, he's doing it. So why not me?"

Quote from: Dena on March 31, 2016, 11:04:14 PM
You need to understand that while there is a common thread in being transgender, everybody has a different story. You may not have seen stories about trans men attempting to burry their feeling by being more feminine but I have seen a few. The mirror image of MTF has stories were men marry, body build or get tattoos to appear more masculine only to finally yield to their femininity. You need to make this decision on what you feel and not what you think. Logic will tell you you are safer staying where you are but if you do, you will never have the happiness that you deserve.
Yeah, I've heard that story a lot too. I was actually just talking to a transmasculine friend about that. I do feel like there are things I did to try to "be a woman" and certainly there are things I did because they seemed to make me more attractive to men (even though I hated that they were attracted to me as a woman not a man). But, on the other hand, I do feel like most of my attraction to femininity was because I legitimately liked those things. It's funny because as I get more comfortable in my own masculine identity I feel more comfortable with my more feminine expression because suddenly I can like the things I always liked and know that it doesn't make me a girl, lol.

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on April 01, 2016, 04:31:34 AM
As trans guys we have a totally legitimate fear of being exposed and hurt by bad people, but trust me, plenty of cis males are so invested in "I'm a member of a TEAM!" that they spend precious hours of their life stressing about whether they "pass" as "normal" or "good enough".
That's a really good point too! I think I've been lucky in that I grew up doing theatre and music and in environments where there was definitely more variety to masculinity. Even my dad, who is as straight as they come, likes a lot of things that could be seen as more feminine. And surprisingly he seems like he's having an easier time accepting this than my mother, lol.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 01, 2016, 03:14:27 PM
I'm not especially fem in look or what I do, but even I get accused of acting it if I run my hand through my hair or something. Honestly I think it's just other people and their issues, you don't have an issue. You are what you are, and you know what you are, so it's their problem not yours.
Ugh, yeah, it seems like sometimes people are just looking for some way to put us in a box no matter what we do.

Quote from: graspthesanity on April 02, 2016, 08:09:18 AM
Hey, you can show them me! Haha. I loved Disney, I would be dressed up as a princess to Halloween all the time, I loved the dresses and I still do. I've also thought about drag once I transition, because I still do make up, I still wear dresses and skirts and whatnot. Also, I had an unhealthy obsession with dolls which I still until this day. I wanted to be a fashion designer, but when you think of it, it all falls under gay stereotypes, so that's what calms me down. I loved the colour pink so badly as a child that I would dress up in entire pink outfits, I'm not kidding. Yet at the same time I desperately wanted to be a boy. So, you're surely not alone in this!
Haha, awesome! Yes, the gay stereotype thing is sometimes the only thing that keeps me sane. I've spent much of my life wondering why people didn't see that I was flamingly gay and not a girl. It's a mystery to me, lol. I mean, when I was in 6th grade I wore my stepmother's pink, poofed sleeve bridesmaid dress to school and declared myself queen. And I was madly in love with Freddie Mercury. And I pretty much love all things camp. So there you go! I'm a stereotype ;)
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Elis

I'm in love with Freddie Mercury too; you have wonderful taste ;)
They/them pronouns preferred.



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arice

I'm not particularly femme but I hear you on some of these things. I too am confused how no one saw me as a gay guy rather than a straight girl... especially since I admitted that to some people. I also handle feminine things much better when I am treated as a guy.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

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Jonathan L

Quote from: Elis on April 02, 2016, 04:11:48 PM
I'm in love with Freddie Mercury too; you have wonderful taste ;)

Thanks!  <3

Quote from: arice on April 02, 2016, 06:02:07 PM
I'm not particularly femme but I hear you on some of these things. I too am confused how no one saw me as a gay guy rather than a straight girl... especially since I admitted that to some people. I also handle feminine things much better when I am treated as a guy.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk


It's a very disconcerting feeling, especially since so many of my female friends (who were all more masculine than me) would joke about being a gay man in a woman's body. I think that's actually what held be back for a long time, thinking that was just the way lots of girls felt. But, no actually. They were quite happy being girls and I was not.
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arice

Quote from: Jonathan L on April 02, 2016, 11:18:02 PM
Thanks!  <3

It's a very disconcerting feeling, especially since so many of my female friends (who were all more masculine than me) would joke about being a gay man in a woman's body. I think that's actually what held be back for a long time, thinking that was just the way lots of girls felt. But, no actually. They were quite happy being girls and I was not.
That's exactly it. At the end of the day, they like being women... and I wish I'd wake up in the morning with a male body...

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

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Kylo

My mother has a hard time accepting my "trans-ness" because apparently she describes herself as a "man without a penis" as well, but not to the extent that she'd ever do something about that lack of penis.

This is where she and I have a problem because she claims to understand the "issue" of feeling or acting like a man, but because she isn't actually trans and doesn't need to transition she assumes nobody else 'needs' to either. Clearly it doesn't bother her enough to be a problem, and I am merely attention seeking because she doesn't understand this problem I have. Or only semi-understands this. And she is a scientist - a person who has to be objective and supposedly logical every day for her job. It's things like this that threaten to cause me to spontaneously combust due to irony overload.

The joke-y "I'm a gay man in a woman's body" or "I'm just a guy without a penis" thing I've heard many times before and it's really not the same thing as being trans at all for these people. If it was, they'd very soon come up against obstacles and difficulties just functioning or conforming in a normal environment. They're more like passing quips, complaints, jealousies or whatnot for them, and do not interfere much with them leading pretty normal lives and having children and so on. In comparison I could show them a veritable spaghetti junction of issues I have with normal life and having children and the reasons I'll never have either due to the condition.

I face some of the same problems the OP does because I've several interests not considered typically masculine, my two jobs are not considered especially masculine and are fields dominated by women (BL comics and sculpting) and the response from some people is confusion that I don't intend to bulk up like Arnie and get a crew cut, et cetera. Honestly if there's confusion over what trans is from the get go there's going to be confusion about its mechanisms and why not every trans man is falling over himself to be overtly macho and masculine at every opportunity. But an understanding of the biology of the condition and how it frequently allows for things like bisexuality and an identity that can permit behaviors 'in the middle' of male and female typical (not to mention the effects of being socialized as a female) wouldn't go amiss for them if you want to educate them. I wouldn't hold your breath for miracles, though. My mother's a scientist and she can't be bothered to read any of the science associated with trans research, and instead went to her father to be satisfied with the explanation "______ always was a bit weird, weren't they," but if you can possibly get some of the science into your parents' hands it might be worth a try.

To be quite honest I don't see a whole lot of things or activities as gendered, to be avoided or gravitated to for that reason. If I like something, I like it. Right now I happen to be wearing a pair of pink socks. I don't especially like pink, they came in the packet of black and teal socks though, and they're comfortable so I'm wearing them. Yesterday I saw a man in a pink shirt walking up the street and he didn't seem to care about his pink shirt either. Some people see these things as gendered and some don't, but if your parents do it might just be easier to simply explain yourself as a gay transman and leave it at that.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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MercenaryElf

Quote from: Dena on March 31, 2016, 11:04:14 PM
You need to understand that while there is a common thread in being transgender, everybody has a different story. You may not have seen stories about trans men attempting to burry their feeling by being more feminine but I have seen a few. The mirror image of MTF has stories were men marry, body build or get tattoos to appear more masculine only to finally yield to their femininity. You need to make this decision on what you feel and not what you think. Logic will tell you you are safer staying where you are but if you do, you will never have the happiness that you deserve.

I've found that I relate to that part of some of the MTF stories for that reason: the attempts to try to "look the part", but eventually yielding.  I'm always seeking out new stories and information, and am fascinated by the patterns and similarities that emerge.  It's reassuring to find the common threads among the stories.

Quote from: Jonathan L on April 02, 2016, 04:05:50 PM
Oh god, I love that scene in Labyrinth! I think that's one thing that makes me feel more accepting of my femininity, wanting to help make things easier for other guys. As in, I can be the kind of man that I want to be instead of being what other people want, and by doing so maybe others can look at me and say, "Well, he's doing it. So why not me?"

It has masks and David Bowie.  What's not to love? :)

Seriously, that's what keeps me going a lot of days lately.  The funny thing is that I've always been a very quiet person who wanted nothing more than to stay in the background and not be seen.  But because having access to other people's stories (even when some of the elements in those stories didn't necessarily resonate) helped give me the ability and courage to come out and accept myself, it only seems right to one day pass along whatever might help others in their journey, too.  You never know who might find that your story resonates with them.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 03, 2016, 03:52:42 PM
The joke-y "I'm a gay man in a woman's body" or "I'm just a guy without a penis" thing I've heard many times before and it's really not the same thing as being trans at all for these people. If it was, they'd very soon come up against obstacles and difficulties just functioning or conforming in a normal environment. They're more like passing quips, complaints, jealousies or whatnot for them, and do not interfere much with them leading pretty normal lives and having children and so on. In comparison I could show them a veritable spaghetti junction of issues I have with normal life and having children and the reasons I'll never have either due to the condition.

Yes...sometimes hearing those jokes tossed around over and over by people who don't appear to actually struggle with functioning because of it gets infuriating when all you're trying to do is just make it through the day.
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steyraug96

Quote from: MercenaryElf on March 31, 2016, 10:39:09 PM
It makes perfect sense -- there's no one way to be a guy, but that can be hard to explain to someone who may not believe that you're "really" trans because you don't fit the stereotype.

I naturally have a lot of masculine mannerisms, have always adored menswear, and was thrilled in my teens to pass my collection of Hot Wheels on to my baby brother, which he played with while we watched Batman and Sonic cartoons together.  But I also didn't violently reject every aspect of being raised as a girl.  I have some guilty feminine pleasures (my world stops when the ballroom scene comes on in Labyrinth).  Also, I went through a misguided year just before coming out to myself where I tried to "cure" my sense that I'm not a woman by looking very feminine, which is something I haven't seen so far in the transman narratives I've been finding, and has been brought up as a strike against me by everyone I've come out to so far.

Maybe our best "proof" to others that we're trans is in how we carry ourselves through life as we transition.  I keep telling myself that one day, I'll have the experience and story to help make things a little easier for other guys struggling with the issues I face now.  Until then, I wish you luck (I'm really glad to hear that your parents accept you), and would be interested in knowing if you find any relevant narratives that help.

Hello, Elf,
Wanted to borrow your comment here, because I think it's a great lead-in.
I have come to the conclusion that we are ALL pretty good actors.
And that no one on the outside "gets" that. I don't know why; even others who have been abused, and learned to act certain ways to avoid the abuse, don't understand the issue here. Or, more accurately, the ability we have to pretend to be something and someone we are not. We KNOW we are at risk, and that acting "that way" makes the risk drop. Like a child with an abusive parent, they learn to hide, to find escapes, to deflect and dissemble. To minimize risk, to be elsewhere at the "bad times."

But somehow, that doesn't translate to the transgendered, regardless of activity. If a male wants to dress up like a Disney princess, he's "queer." If a girl wants to roughhouse and climb tress, she's a tomboy... (Funny, already, the male is marginalized and pigeon-holed, but the girl is not...   Maybe some of that is my bias, being MTF and having watched my sister and my best friend's sister grow up, getting showered in special goodies all the time.) Which one is more at risk, though? The male, I think, as dad might try and beat the gay (or the devil) out of him.
So the child learns to act in the "appropriate" ways, to avoid being beaten.
Method actor, anyone?

I was there, I think it's pretty correct.
No one wants to find out if I'm a big talker, or there's a reason for the 43 stitches I've had... It's just not worth it. This is the fallout of being someone who has LITERALLY cried over spilled milk. Over breaking an icicle. who wanted to get his fingernails painted as a kid. Who didn't WANT to play football, or baseball, or basketball. Who didn't think girls were "icky" right off.
But I learned real fast, ya know?
So the goatee and the weightlifting and the interest in martial arts...  I guess that's not stuff a girl would do?  (My sister has engaged in female "beard" competitions. WTF, really, they exist, using created beards. So - if she can do that and is still a girl - why can't I react to childhood injuries and abuse by hiding who and what I am? Can't be vulnerable to my parents, can't be honest with them, can't be honest with my sister, my friends... Why is it so hard for those on the outside to understand we're consummate actors in this particular role, because we HAD to be perfect? Because a mis-step could get us abused, or even killed?

Perhaps you are not aware; the Tarzan story is a REAL story, and in fact has been backed up in other instances, too. Mowgli was real, too. Tarzan was a young child when the plane crashed, and he was adopted by apes, as I understand. He imitated apes, to the point of walking like them - no human to imprint on. So he walked their way and understood their (body) language, but couldn't talk as a human. Mowgli lived with the wolves, walked on all fours, and acted like a wolf. Had either of them acted like an outsider, they'd likely have been killed.

And this is before we address issues of religion (Born into staunch Irish/Italian Roman Catholic family here, only son, only child even. My sister's adopted.)

But no - we couldn't have learned to act contrary to who we are, just to make sure we don't get damaged...

-Dianna
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Kylo

The narrative will change over time as medical science and finally the public learn more about what the condition of being trans really is.

100 years ago "being gay" was considered either wilful deviance, mental illness, or even a third sex. They've got to the point now where at least they are willing to research it and have come to understand there may be all sorts of factors at work that are none of these. As long as civilization keeps moving forward, the views on being trans cannot move backwards overall.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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steyraug96

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 04, 2016, 09:47:28 AM
The narrative will change over time as medical science and finally the public learn more about what the condition of being trans really is.

100 years ago "being gay" was considered either wilful deviance, mental illness, or even a third sex. They've got to the point now where at least they are willing to research it and have come to understand there may be all sorts of factors at work that are none of these. As long as civilization keeps moving forward, the views on being trans cannot move backwards overall.

Gotta disagree...
Look where we've been "reclassified" in the latest DSM.
>:(
-D
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