Acceptance vrs. Tolerance

[HappyMoni]

   I would like to start a discussion on the levels of acceptance that transgender people face when coming out. Of course, self acceptance is most important but not the subject for this thread.
   With personal relationships, there is a continuum going from hostile/rejection, to tolerance, to acceptance, to joyful in the reactions that we may receive when we come out. I think these levels change depending on how real the transition is for the other person. In my situation, I have out of state people who I don't see me very often. They heard my "news" and said "We just want you to be happy. We are good with it." Since they don't see me, their reality of my transition is more abstract, not concrete. A positive reaction is easier for them. I don't think they or I know if it is true acceptance or just tolerance. In a sense their feelings have not been tested.
   My son, who is around a lot initially gave me the "I just want you to be happy." reaction. I was elated! As my appearance has (gradually) progressed, I think the visual reality has contributed to a shift from acceptance to tolerance. He is more distant. I saw him taking a long, sad look at one of my "old self" pictures. Obviously, I will reach out soon to see how things are and find out how I can support him.
   What I am looking to discuss is do people who have transitioned for a while see a move from acceptance to just tolerance as transition gets more real? Maybe there is a mourning of the loss of the "old self" that happens. (My other son says this is spot on.) Once the change is established as the new reality, is there maybe a return to acceptance?
   Furthermore, I am interested to know if others who have transitioned recognized the need of someone close to them to mourn that "old self" and give them space to do it. For me, I think it would be a shame to just say,"This is me. Get used to it." to someone who is mentally trying to adjust. I wouldn't want it done to me. Any thoughts?
Moni

[Kylo]

I've been "out" to family and friends about 3-4 years now. That's not exactly long term compared to many here and I myself am only beginning to get on the road. But I am watching and gauging my family and friends' reactions carefully.

Funny thing is ever since I was a child my family (and friends) regarded me as strange without ever clicking that I was transsexual (not that that was the only thing that was strange about me). Not in a hostile way, just in a way of being the "black sheep", the one who isn't like everyone else or into the things everyone else is into. They had to accept this degree of strangeness from day one, or this lack of "fitting in", because that's just my personality. As time passes, I'm not sure much will change. A bunch of them have affirmed "well _______ always was strange, eh?" and shrugged and leave it at that. As if they're satisfied that somehow my trans issue had a definite and trackable root and they're used to my eccentricity so it really means little at all for them to readjust. I think I'd call it acceptance, although I'm not really sure whether I was ever accepted or just tolerated. It's very hard to access what people really think about you and whether those who don't have much choice about putting up with you in the past allowed themselves much of a difference.

I don't think they're mourning anything by their reactions. Nobody's said anything that gives that idea away. More like "oh, so you're trans are you" or "okay then" and little more. Mostly it's been ignored, because mostly I have always been rather ignored, I guess.

The only person who is mourning is my s.o.. He is going to need a lot of space for that. Hopefully I can just make myself a more fun person to be around than I have been to offset a bit of it. Not sure what else I can do. I have tried to express that he doesn't need to start denying or erasing our past because I'm embarrassed or angry about it or something. I told him those memories he has are his and his alone; he can have them and do whatever he wants with them... I'm not going to demand otherwise or say "that me never existed!" That me didn't really exist for me, but I understand it existed for him and that he had a girlfriend and not a boyfriend. That's fine. I'm used to thinking on dual levels anyway about most things.

[StillAnonymous]

I haven't come out to any friends or family yet.  Would I prefer acceptance over tolerance?  Absolutely, but I can accept tolerance too.  It's a really difficult thing, and even for myself.  If I can hardly accept myself, then how do I expect others to do it as well?

[suzifrommd]

   Furthermore, I am interested to know if others who have transitioned recognized the need of someone close to them to mourn that "old self" and give them space to do it.

My daughter wouldn't go out in public with me for weeks after I went full time. Part of it was anger, part of it was shame at being seen with me. We went out for a birth day dinner about a month later and she realized that this is how life was. Maybe I didn't pass perfectly, but everyone treated me with respect. From that time on she got onboard. Today we're closer than ever.

[LizK]

When I came out to my younger brother he did the "I'll support you and it changes nothing" routine. I did notice over the next 3 months he did change and at one stage, all but avoided me. He has kind of gone from Acceptance to Tolerance and is moving back into acceptance and starting to take an active part in supporting me. This has happened over about a 12month period.

Someone commented that you can never really know what others are thinking and I agree with this wholeheartedly. Until my brother told me of the difficulties that he had with me being Trans I would not have known and I know him really well. Being family their first instinct is to support you but once the reality starts to sink in then the difficulties arise and things move into more of a tolerance mode and hopefully on from there.

Elizabeth (Liz) K

[HappyMoni]

So the theoretical "I'll accept you." that people give at first might be chalked up to the fact that they don't really think that it will affect their lives. When they realize that it might take some effort on their part or change something in their life, that's when they back off a bit. Maybe some need time to realize that if they do withdraw, they will lose or damage the relationship with us. Chances are that the transitioning person is not gonna do a 180 degree turn, so then they may realize they may need to change some.

For people really close to us who are backing away, do we approach them to try to get past the difficulties? I am not really satisfied with tolerance especially with family. Like Elizabeth says she didn't know the trouble her brother was having with her. Maybe it is wrong for us to assume that those around us will get okay with us by themselves. Suzi, did your daughter come around on her own or did you help the process by initiating conversation?

As for the other people who are not so close, I can live with tolerance I guess. I do need to find my "thick skin" soon.  I come out to coworkers (a big bunch of folks) next week. I know I will see every kind of reaction including hostile. Will admit to being a bit scared!
Moni

[suzifrommd]

For people really close to us who are backing away, do we approach them to try to get past the difficulties?

There's nothing you can do to get them past the difficulties It's their journey to take.

There are two things you can do.
1. Educate them: Make sure they understand what it means to be trans and why you're doing what you're doing.
2. Insist upon respect. They must refer to you respectfully and treat you decently. Feel free to put distance between you and anyone who reveals themselves to be a toxic presence in your life by showing you disrespect.

Prayer helps. I'm not really into God, so I pray to my inner strength and it works just as well. I pray to accept that people will figure out how they feel in their own time and I have no control over it. I pray for peace while that process is going on and I pray for the wisdom to know how to deal with them when they connect.

[LivingTheDream]

I think I have experienced all of em at one time, some have changed, some have not (yet at least).

An aunt of mine is the only one I know who has flat out rejected it and me. Used to see her at least once a month, haven't spoken or seen or since..

I think the majority of people were tolerant or accepting of it for me. My bestie was pretty accepting when I first told him but I'd say has now switched to tolerant. We used to talk and hang quite a bit b4 but as things progressed, we kinda stopped. It's kinda mutual I think, idk how comfortable he is about me and I distanced myself because he said he would continue using old name/pronouns and stuff...

I've had others start off tolerant or accepting and move up too. Some people have said things like, I look much better as a girl than I did as a guy..been told I am more social, outgoing, fun to be around, open, stuff like that as well, people have said they like me much better now than before too.

I never really did have many friends and was never close to much of my huge family so this is only a small sample size atm. A lot of people I am not sure about, some may not even know yet (people I see regularly do know) so this could change later on too.

I haven't gotten the feeling that anyone's had the need to mourn my old self from anyone (yet).

[HappyMoni]

 Insist upon respect. They must refer to you respectfully and treat you decently. Feel free to put distance between you and anyone who reveals themselves to be a toxic presence in your life by showing you disrespect.
From Suzifrommd

Thank you Suzi, you are exactly right. I will keep reminding myself that I don't deserve to be disrespected. After years of trying to live life as everyone else wanted me to, I have accepted shame and self disrespect, thinking I deserved it. No more!

I've had others start off tolerant or accepting and move up too. Some people have said things like, I look much better as a girl than I did as a guy..been told I am more social, outgoing, fun to be around, open, stuff like that as well, people have said they like me much better now than before too. (From Lining The Dream)

When we are ourselves we are better people, so we are nicer. Open minded people can see  it. A number of people say they prefer the new me as well. Thanks for sharing.
Moni

[SofiN]

For me it started off as what sounded like acceptance but it quickly slid to tolerance and even lower when I came out to my family. I've been out and full-time over 6 months now and very little progress is being made.

Have mentioned it here before I think but basically at first everyone was telling me how they support what I'm doing and that I'm still loved etc.

Within days all effort goes out the window from them - I understand this is probably denial or something but essentially my transition gets frowned on a lot now.

Fast forward to today and I'd say its hovering between disgusted / barely tolerating. My dad entirely avoids speaking to me and will happily deadname and use "he" to other people behind my back. The rest of my family deadname and say "he" to my face or when I'm around... I've overheard quite a lot of nasty comments too =(

As far as I can see they don't question what I'm doing directly but are making it very clear that what I am trying to do is wrong. I even got told that it is a "choice" at one point even though it really isn't.

Luckily most of my friends had no problems accepting me, only a few seemed a bit put off but also are doing their best to adjust. Wish my family was like that.

I envy most of you here who have been able to slowly work at this with your family / friends. Maybe this post will show you that even if they aren't accepting you fully yet, it is still a blessing to be tolerated.

[Emileeeee]

It started as a near perfect record of total acceptance. Within a month about half of them gave me the old "we're supportive, but that doesn't mean we have to participate" line, so I stopped speaking to them. Just last week one of my parents called me and addressed me as my deadname on the voicemail. I returned the call with questions and addressed myself on their voicemail as my new name. I have yet to receive a call back.

With others it does seem to be slipping the further along I get. They were so confused about how slowly I was transitioning, probably be Ms Jenner seemed to do it so suddenly. During that time, they were 100% supportive. Changing my name officially seems to have caused some distancing. Them seeing the physical changes has caused some more.

And people wonder why we get so depressed. We do the one thing it takes to make us happy and half the people we love get angry and try to cure us. The ones that remain show initial support, then take it away, with a few exceptions.

[HappyMoni]

Thank you for sharing Emileeeee. I had heard that the journey of transitioning meant the loss of some people while gaining others. At first I thought that acceptance was permanent. Now I wonder if it is like a marriage where you really have to put the continuous effort in to make it work. Even then people drift away or mutany from one's camp of supporters. I am not there yet but I think the people we get to know as our true selves may be more reliable since that's all they have known. It makes a strong case for making new friends. I went to the Keystone conference last weekend. It was wonderful to be surrounded by people with similar experiences. I felt a trust there that is lacking in too many other places in the world.

[Andie73]

People are funny creatures.. I dream of complete acceptance by everyone who matters, but that may not be realistic. If I can at least be tolerates, I'll take it.
I also find it can take a good deal of time for people to work out their own thoughts in their head about me, and I am very patient.
My wife supports me, but I can still see she is struggling. She seems super worried about the negative possibilities for me from work and our community.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

[HappyMoni]

I just came out to about 80 coworkers two days ago. It is  a very accepting place in a very accepting state Maryland). I went to great pains to describe why I was doing what I was doing, how much pain it caused to live a non-genuine life, and that I respected them enough to tell them face to face. My wife also works there and spoke about how we are stronger together than ever. We got a standing ovation. We got a lot of hugs. I am so lucky. If there is a lesson I would take from it, it would be to try to be respectful to the people being told. Let them know how awful it would be to continue to live a lie. You will show your vulnerablity, but I would let them know how much mental pain is involved. After that it is something you can live with because you presented it fairly, honestly and the best you could. I fully expect to see the drift to tolerance when people see the reality of my change (at least for some). At least I have a great start.
Moni

[Denise]

I just came out to about 80 coworkers two days ago. It is  a very accepting place in a very accepting state Maryland). I went to great pains to describe why I was doing what I was doing, how much pain it caused to live a non-genuine life, and that I respected them enough to tell them face to face. My wife also works there and spoke about how we are stronger together than ever. We got a standing ovation. We got a lot of hugs. I am so lucky. If there is a lesson I would take from it, it would be to try to be respectful to the people being told. Let them know how awful it would be to continue to live a lie. You will show your vulnerability, but I would let them know how much mental pain is involved. After that it is something you can live with because you presented it fairly, honestly and the best you could. I fully expect to see the drift to tolerance when people see the reality of my change (at least for some). At least I have a great start.
Moni

Moni - That's fantastic.  I really like that you and your wife were up there together.

[HappyMoni]

Thanks pj. She is amazing. I don't know where I would be without her.

Congradulations to you on starting Spiro. Testosterone was my nightmare. Good luck.

Moni

[Amy1988]

For me, I started transitioning pre teen somewhere around 2000 so most people who know me have never known me as anything else.  So far I have never been mistreated or met hostility but I got lucky in that I am very passable and I have a pretty face.  That goes a long way as any cis gender female will tell you.  I'm treated like a girl and it's great and I thank God for being so fortunate.

[Soli]

hmmm yea, I got a taste of that yesterday.

Reading a very long email from my sister who was actually reacting to me telling her I'm now on HRT... What seemed to be plain acceptance at first, I mean very sincere, like it doesn't matter what you are... started shifting towards a total lack of understanding the very nature of my life-long uneasiness with life and myself.

To the point that I was thinking... usually people with that reasoning are hostile to trans. She is not, but not supporting either since she's telling me that she doesn't understand why one would want to change role, have less testosterone (and she thinks get weaker, but hey I feel stronger now), that she's never been very attractive and just learned to live with it.

I guess she's right in a way, I remember telling that to my therapist just last year: we can live through anything, some people live through wars... some humans live through very rough times... my situation can be looked at as quite lightly problematic... in some regards. I guess I could go on being a man, I told my therapist (surely I could have, so I guess my sister sees it as some kind of a choice)

So that's my sister. Anyways I don't care. At all. There are only two humans I care about the reaction and what they think: my daughter and my son, freshly adults. Great acceptance at first, supportive... It really wasn't a surprise to them so they didn't actually have any shock. We'll see... Light discussion yesterday about the fact that I will remain his father... trying to explain how I actually never felt like a father, much more like a mother... but yea, no troubles, I will remain a father. (humans are so binaries)

I guess for my sister there seems to be a line where one cannot ask help from science. If your back hurts so much you can't walk (her case), you can take drugs to get relief and walk normally, but if you've been crawling and your whole life has been bouncing all over the place your not entitled to seek a solution. Live with it. I must say I can't see the line... think it's moral (even if she claims to be atheist)...

started an email to react, and then... after all why react? I'm tired of trying to explain my chaotic life. No more explaining, I just act. Feels good. For once. I feel my breasts growing as I type, touching them by mistake with my arm since I'm not used to type with breasts... hehehe 

[HappyMoni]

Soli,
     I am not able to be at a point where I don't care what people think. The best I can do is put out an explanation of where I am coming from and try to feel satisfied that I did the best I could do to explain. If they reject or give lukewarm support, I don't have control of that. The most effective thing I have done is to explain the choices I have for the rest of my life. One, I can continue to be angry, withdrawn emotionally, and uncomfortable with myself the rest of my life(staying "male".) Or two, I can try to be who I think I really am, risk being shunned or physically attacked and risk losing everyone in my life that is close to me. Now, they can call that a choice, I guess, but do they think I would opt for number two given all the risks, if it was really a choice? I don't actually see being transgender in this negative way, but to someone on the outside, this is what it might look like.
     I totally relate to how you feel about your kids. I told my grown boys that I would always be their "Dad."  Even this much of being considered male is hard for me. I will do it for them though.
     Ahhhh! boob touching, very different, very nice!
Moni