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Forehead surgery recovery and bald trans woman concerns

Started by Ruth Ruthless, April 06, 2016, 06:19:53 PM

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Ruth Ruthless

So I saw a thread about FFS recovery in general, but I was wondering specifically about forehead surgery.

In two weeks I'm finally getting my forehead surgery done, my first surgery ever.

Later on trachea shave in July, and if I manage to get coverage for my nose surgery I will have it in December.

It took me half a year to get health insurance to cover the forehead surgery, and I'm both excited and afraid to have it. Excited by the possability of getting some real change to my face, afraid that there won't be enough change or that something might go horribly wrong since I've never been under the knife.

I live in Israel and am doing the surgeries here in Israel. Forehead is with Dr. Ran Yahalom. It became eventually apparant to me after some previous confusion that he knows type3 reconstruction, and in fact uses it most of the time, titanium screws and all.

I am not doing any chin or mandible work because it's pretty feminine to begin with and I'm trying to do as little surgery as possible while hopefully pushing my overall facial balance to be more feminine than masculine.

So my question is... how long does it take to recover in different levels from the forehead surgery specifically?

Different levels meaning things like, when do you stop looking like you had a car accident? when do you look presentable enough to not produce shock and horror when you're seen?

Then the next level would be say seeing 80-90 percent of change?

And then I understand full recovery to see final result is 1 year, but hopefully I don't look like after a car crash for 1 year...

I know everyone's mileage may vary, but I'd like to get a sense of the range of experience and to find out what's the minimum and the maximum and what to expect for... you see, I'm hoping to go a while seeing as few people as possible while I recover, because I can't bear being seen without my wig on and I'm afraid I won't be able to put it on while recovering due to possible swelling and/or to avoid infection of the incision area while it heals. The doctor said it's okay to put the wig whenever I want, but I somehow still think it's probably a bad idea to put a wig which inherently cannot be sterilized over my head for several hours at least until the skin in the area seems sealed up.

So how long does it take for the skin over the incision to reasonably "seal up"?

Also, I frequently shave my head to reduce my dysphoria when I'm without a wig (I hate seeing the male pattern of my baldness) but I'm afraid to shave while the scar is still healing. How long do you think until I can shave again without disturbing the scar? Again once the skin over the scar is "sealed up" or longer and how much longer?

Thanks!
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Obfuskatie

I'm pretty sure it's easier for the doctor to do the nose and forehead in the same surgery because of how they connect at your brow line, but it really depends on your monetary constraints.

Most swelling for me was not very noticeable at the two week mark for my forehead, my chin and nose took about 1 - 2 months for the swelling to go down. I didn't have much bruising, so it only lasted about a week.

During the healing process, I was getting a lot more tension headaches especially in the afternoon. I was more tired than usual, and got winded easily. Any time my heart got going a bit from light exercise, I'd start to get dizzy and need to sit down for the first few months. But I was able to walk around a day after my FFS surgery.


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If people are what they eat, I really need to stop eating such neurotic food  :icon_shakefist:
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Ruth Ruthless

There are seperate specialists who know how best to do the forehead/chin/mandible work and specialists who know how to do the nose surgery, and specialists who know how to do the trachea shave. That's just how it developed here in Israel that each division has their own people who specialized in different parts of facial feminization. Beauracratically, they still give out seperate surgery appointments, and that causes whatever beauracracy from the health insurance that do their best to weasel out of covering the surgeries to be tripled.

They are working on creating a collaboration between the different divisions and when that happens perhaps they will do combined surgeries, but for now due to beauracratic reasons it's not possible and not known when it will be possible.

So my nose surgery is set on a seperate date and I'll have to wait for it seperately (also still not known for sure if they will cover it).

Could the forehead surgery without nose surgery create imbalances in my face and I'll look in some weird bad looking in between limbo state until I get my nose surgery, or will it probably be an improvement even without the nose surgery?
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Ruth Ruthless

How about being able to walk around? I'd like to be able to prepare my salads myself as soon as possible and avoid the hospital food completely. How long could that take to be able to do that?
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Dena

They will be using a general on you and depending on how long you were under, it can take a day or two to get all the stuff out of your system. Here in the United States, hospitals can be ask to adjust the menu in advance for any special diet needs you have. I would expect that to be very true in your country as well considering that diet is often tied to religion even more so than here.

Also consider that you may desire something soft for a few days after some of the surgery if they get near the mouth area. When I had my voice surgery, I would have paid well for a bowl of soup but there was none to be had. Instead I had to work my way through undercooked carrots and over cooked chicken.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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Ruth Ruthless

I asked them, and they wouldn't have even a vegan option for me, let alone a whole plant food diet option. For example, I asked them how many fruits I could have a day, and they said they serve 1 or 2 fruits a day.

I think that's a disgrace to be honest, when it is known that the recommendation to the general public is to have at least 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day that in a hospital of all places where you are supposed to get well and for that I'd assume you'd need to eat healthy you can only get 1 or 2 fruits a day. Also, I don't know how many servings of fruits and vegetables a day I have, in addition to whole grains, legumes and mushrooms, but I would guess it's around 20 or more.

Anyway, they have a fridge and freezer where I can store my own food and label it as my own and then it's supposed to stay reserved for me. I guess I could go a couple of days on cooked food only that I cooked at home before surgery and put in their freezer and just have them warm it up in the microwave for me, but by the third day I should be able to cut my own salads?

They won't be doing any jaw or chin work, only in the forehead area, orbital rims, brow bossing, etc.

I have planned nose and trachea shave surgeries, but they are done seperately here in Israel, with different departments and different specialists.
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Dena

With the type of surgery you are having, the time it takes you to become steady on your feet will range between a few hours and a couple of days so I would think by the third day you may still be hurting but you will be moving around pretty freely. As your doctor and the hospital about how much food prep you can do because you may not have access to a full kitchen.

With my nose, I needed to stay in a care facility because I didn't have anybody to drive me home after surgery and I was to dopey to do it myself. As I recall I spent a second day there as well because the pain medication made me sleepy and again, I didn't want to drive. The third day it was time to go home and the people in the parking structure give me a funny look because they though I had abandon my car.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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KayXo

Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on April 09, 2016, 03:00:45 AM
I think that's a disgrace to be honest, when it is known that the recommendation to the general public is to have at least 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day that in a hospital of all places where you are supposed to get well and for that I'd assume you'd need to eat healthy you can only get 1 or 2 fruits a day. Also, I don't know how many servings of fruits and vegetables a day I have, in addition to whole grains, legumes and mushrooms, but I would guess it's around 20 or more.

JAMA. 2006 Feb 8;295(6):655-66.

"Randomized controlled trial of 48,835 postmenopausal women aged 50 to 79 years, of diverse backgrounds and ethnicities, who participated in the Women's Health Initiative Dietary Modification Trial. Women were randomly assigned to an intervention (19,541 [40%]) or comparison group (29,294 [60%]) in a free-living setting. Study enrollment occurred between 1993 and 1998 in 40 US clinical centers; mean follow-up in this analysis was 8.1 years."

"Intensive behavior modification in group and individual sessions designed to reduce total fat intake to 20% of calories and increase intakes of vegetables/fruits to 5 servings/d and grains to at least 6 servings/d. The comparison group received diet-related education materials."

"Over a mean of 8.1 years, a dietary intervention that reduced total fat intake and increased intakes of vegetables, fruits, and grains did not significantly reduce the risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD in postmenopausal women and achieved only modest effects on CVD risk factors"
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Ruth Ruthless

Or you could read this article that links to many other articles that demonstrate how fruits and vegetables are very healthy and take a look at the overall results when you search for research on fruits and vegetables and you'll find how much overwhelming research there is in favor of fruits and vegetables...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4644575/#B1
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KayXo

From study:

"Sufficient intake of fruits and vegetables has been associated with a reduced risk of chronic diseases and body weight management but the exact mechanism is unknown."

Association does not equal cause and effect. They can't pinpoint mechanism.

"Various reviews have associated low intake of fruits and vegetables with chronic diseases such as cardiovascular diseases, blood pressure, hypercholesterolemia, osteoporosis, many cancers, chronic obstructive pulmonary diseases, respiratory problems as well as mental health (2–6)."

Association does not imply causation, there are confounding variables. The study I provided was a randomized controlled trial where things were more controlled.

"Sufficient intake of fruit and vegetables (F&V) has been related epidemiologically with reduced risk of many non-communicable diseases."

Related epidemiologically does not imply causation. Cause and effect still remains to be proven.

"Several studies have highlighted the CVD risk-reducing potential of F&V whereby their intake were strongly associated with lower cardiovascular risk factors such as lower blood pressure (BP), cholesterol and triacylglycerol thus preventing premature cardiovascular disorders (2)."

Association again. No cause and effect.

"Moreover, fibers found in F&V have been shown to reduce intestinal passage rates by forming a bulk, leading to a more gradual nutrient absorption (10) hence preventing constipation. They can be fermented in the colon, increasing the concentration of short chain fatty acids having anticarcinogenic properties (11) and maintaining gut health."

When looking at supporting evidence for this, here is what I find:

"Epidemiological and clinical studies demonstrate that intake of dietary fiber and whole grain is inversely related to obesity, type two diabetes, cancer and cardiovascular disease (CVD)."

Again, no cause and effect.

"Generally speaking, dietary fiber is the edible parts of plants, or similar carbohydrates, that are resistant to digestion and absorption in the small intestine. Dietary fiber can be separated into many different fractions. Recent research has begun to isolate these components and determine if increasing their levels in a diet is beneficial to human health. These fractions include arabinoxylan, inulin, pectin, bran, cellulose, β-glucan and resistant starch. The study of these components may give us a better understanding of how and why dietary fiber may decrease the risk for certain diseases. The mechanisms behind the reported effects of dietary fiber on metabolic health are not well established. It is speculated to be a result of changes in intestinal viscosity, nutrient absorption, rate of passage, production of short chain fatty acids and production of gut hormones. Given the inconsistencies reported between studies this review will examine the most up to date data concerning dietary fiber and its effects on metabolic health."

"Recently Habauzit et al. (12) reported that fruits containing a high amount of anthocyanins, flavonols and procyanidins, such as berries, grapes and pomegranate are effective at decreasing cardiovascular risk while citrus fruits and apples had a moderate effect on BP and blood lipid level. "

I don't know how they came to this conclusion, whether the evidence for it is solid. Don't have access to full study.

"An increased consumption of carotenoid-rich F&V maintains the cholesterol level in blood since they reduce oxidative damage and cause an increase in LDL oxidation resistance (13)."

Cholesterol level has been shown not to be a consistent predictive factor for heart disease and some with heart disease, atherosclerosis have low levels while others have high levels. The findings are mixed and there is no strong evidence for its causal relationship.

"An increased consumption of cruciferous vegetables was also reported to cause a decrease in the risk of intestinal, bowel, thyroid, pancreatic and lung cancer (4)."

Let's see what this is based on

"There have been several reports in recent years which have reviewed the epidemiological evidence that increased consumption of fruit and vegetables reduces the risk of cancer[2]. Of 156 publications reviewed, 128 showed a statistically significant positive correlation between increased fruit and vegetable consumption and a decreased risk of cancer. Further evidence was presented in a comprehensive review[3]."

Correlation does not equal cause and effect.

"In this review, increased consumption of cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower, etc.) was correlated to a reduction in the risk of intestinal, bowel and thyroid cancer. Carrots, fruit and cruciferous vegetables were correlated with reduced incidence of pancreatic cancer, and carrots and leafy green vegetables were protective against lung cancer. The reductions in relative risks are summarized in Table I."

Same as above.

"F&V have also been suggested to prevent osteoporosis in adults mainly for their rich sources of calcium and other vitamins which are vital in bone health (3). The high fiber content of F&V may play a role in calcium absorption and reduce the 'acid load' of the diet (14) enhancing bone formation and suppressing bone resorption which consequently result in greater bone strength (15)."

Speculation, nothing more.

"Moreover, phytoingredients in F&V such as gooseberry, curcumin, and soya isoflavones have shown to be protective against lens damage which occurs due to hyperglycemia (16) and certain flavonoids such as quercetin can prevent oxidative stress in the pathogenesis of glaucoma (17)."

Based on the following research:

"The present scenario indicates that the majority of research uses experimental animals and in vitro experiments. Foods or phytoingredients such as gooseberry, curcumin, and soya isoflavones have shown promising potential in the control of lens damage occurring because of hyperglycemia."

Not convincing at all. Should be tested in humans, in vivo.

About the flavonoids, again, this is based on in-vitro studies and not tested in humans.

"Also, a high intake of F&V was inversely associated with the risk of COPD and respiratory symptoms (5). Higher total fruit and vegetable intake is also associated with lower risk of cognitive decline hence proved beneficial for mental health (6, 18). "

Always associations, nothing more.

"Based on available evidence, a clear relationship between F&V and diseases has been well established"

Relationship but no causal relationship which is really what we need to determine to get at solid and conclusive facts.

"Green leafy vegetables, rather than fruit, were suggested to have a genuine protective effect against lung cancer (19)."

Speculation.

"further studies are warranted."

Indeed! I agree.

And it's the same old stuff, repeated again and again, in the next section. In-vitro studies looking at factors in isolation and associations/correlations.

Here is an interesting statement:

"Hence an increased FVI can help to ease weight loss and this can be achieved when F&V displace high-energy-dense foods such as saturated fats, sugar (30) so that the overall energy density of the diet is reduced (31). "

Grouping together saturated fats and sugar when clearly their effects on the human body differ significantly. Plenty of studies have shown that in the presence of higher saturated fat and lower overall carbs, people lose weight and health improves significantly. This has been shown time and time again, since the late 1800's. One need just think of the Masai, the Inuits, the French and the Swiss who despite eating more saturated fat than their American counterparts, are, on average, thinner and in better health.

Another one:

"Fibers also form a gel-like environment in the small intestine, resulting in reduced activity of the enzymes involved in the digestion of fat, protein and carbohydrates (29)."

And that's a good thing?? Reducing macronutrient and nutrient absorption??

"It is also understood that fruits and non-starchy vegetables are very low in energy since they contain high amount of water and fiber and can be consumed in a relatively larger amount contributing to increased satiety to maintain normal weight (28)."

Consumed in higher amounts, the energy consumed goes up so you end up ingesting as much calories. You just need to consume much much more relative to other foods but the end result is the same. Too much fructose in fruits can also lead to buildup of fat in liver, beware! Today's fruits are sweeter than before and poorer in nutrients. Genetically modified.

"High consumption of fructose in F&V is related to obesity in rodents but no effect has yet been demonstrated in humans (34). FVI in over-weight and obese people is much lower than the recommendation since they tend to restrict intake of these F&V when trying to lose weight."

The rest is about phytochemicals and other substances found in fruits and vegetables tested in isolation. Not quite applicable to real life effects where the concentrations might differ and overall results might prove to be quite different.

All the rest are associations.

So, overall, not very convincing at all. We need stronger evidence, controlled trials, one of which was provided to you above.

It's important to take the time to really read the full study, check the references, look at details before jumping to conclusions as you might be surprised at how weak the evidence is for establishing those recommendations.

Show me cause and effect in human beings and at least we have something more solid to work with. :)





I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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