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This really SUCKS

Started by Sara, January 18, 2006, 08:53:39 PM

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Terri-Gene

Good evening Sara.  Sorry to be almost half a year late.  I just ran across your reply to me after almost half a year,  I'm way behind in catching up with the progress of the board for this year, I've been somewhat distracted and not highly communicable with people I haven't had any relationship with.

Yes, you are what you believe you are, regardless of what anyone else has to say about it.  Nothing wrong with wanting to look nice to others.  I'm that way myself in a rough sort of way.  I'm heading toward 60 and not much of a >-bleeped-< or any of that, but I do like to look as nice as possible in my own rough sort of way, I believe most people are like that.

I do believe though that one must follow what they believe and be true to it, for better or worse.  It is one thing to like or not like men for companionship, they can be excellent friends, but on a close personal type of relationship, I have no desire for them and do not want them being any closer then arms length from me. 


Acceptance is something I want and must have, but only if I am accepted as a female with a females wants and needs.  This will sound strange, but while recovering from the stroke I had a couple of days after you posted your reply I find a lot of acceptance from people I never would have expected it from.  It seems there is so much in the world that we never truely learn to see in it's full form.

Always keep the bigger picture in mind, but look as nice as you can whenever you can.

Terri
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taylor

Leigh,

Simply put tg encompasses anyone who is or could be considered gender varient.  DQ 's to post ops, cd's to someone who wears clothes or the opposite gender as a fetish.   

I absolutely disagree with this claim.  And just because it is beginning to be accepted in some circles does not make it accurate at all. 

Gender is NOT Sex.. My sex status may have been questioned but at NO time was my gender anything other than masculine. I do not, as many others that I know personally, fit into the transgender category we oppose it with passion!  So while the term may be used this way in here and some other places it is not a firm definition that is used everywhere... so before you state that someone else is "wholefully uninformed" you may want to check a bit further with such an assumption! Take a look at resources below.


Back when I first transitioned, this term was NEVER used in such a matter and it really bothers many of us that it has began to be used in such a poor and conflicting manner! And to say for those of us that are well past a Transitional phase of any sort in our lives are still under the Transgender term is even more insulting. Nope, sorry it does not work that way, your assuming me to be something that I am not!Sources:

Transgenderism
Nancy R. Nangeroni,
Transgenderism is the practice of transgressing gender norms. A Transgender person is someone whose gender display at least sometimes runs contrary to what other people in the same culture would normally expect.

Transgender
The word "transgender" is a broad term that describes all people who feel that their anatomical sex does not match their gender identity, and/or whose appearance and behaviors do not conform to the societal roles expected of their sex.
http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/sexinfo/?article=activity&refid=035

Next Source
A change of gender would essentially mean the death, or annihilation, of one identity, one personality, and the replacement of that personality with a new one.  Since the new personality would be a new individual, it can be argued that no transition has occured...just a replacement, following the destruction of a previous state.

Since the term "trans" defines a "transition" (this word itself derived from the root), and such transition is contradictory to the term "transgender" itself, the term 'transgender' is essentially meaningless...a paradoxical word devoid of definition.
Unlike 'transsexual' which clearly defines a condition, 'transgender' is a null term.

Attempts have been made to play with the word and force meaning upon it. An example would be to suggest that it somehow represents 'the whole spectrum of gender expression', as in 'across gender', but this is not a valid interpretation of the latin roots. A proper term for this concept would be "pangender" or "pangenderism", which would in fact mean "all gender".

It is essentially inescapable that 'transgender' is a poorly crafted attempt at terminology.

It has been suggested that the value of the word "transgender" may lie in the fact that it is meaningless, so that it forms a comfortably vague label to unite various kinds of people who exist outside cultural gender definitions but who have little in common otherwise. To this end it is commonly used, and this unification may have benefit in terms of seeking political power to liberalize society, or to redress social injustice.

However, in confusing sex with gender, and in helping to make the terms interchangeable with each other in the vocabulary of many, the word undermines the ability to speak meaningfully about the very issues that are being defended. This is an unfortunate flaw with the use of the word.

There is little doubt, however, that the term is gaining increasing and widespread acceptance. It should be noted that many nonsense words regularly enter service in the English language, and become defined by the society that uses them, for language is constantly changing over time. It is indicative to some degree, of the degree of illiteracy in our culture.
www.transsexual.org


All bold lettering is mine, not in the quote itself.

Peace,

Taylor
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stephanie_craxford

Taylor, I can't for the life of me see where there is any difference in meaning between Leighs comment and the one you cited in your post!

Quote from: LeighSimply put tg encompasses anyone who is or could be considered gender varient.  DQ 's to post ops, cd's to someone who wears clothes or the opposite gender as a fetish.   


QuoteNancy R. Nangeroni,
Transgenderism is the practice of transgressing gender norms. A Transgender person is someone whose gender display at least sometimes runs contrary to what other people in the same culture would normally expect.

And I believe it is common knowledge, on this site anyway that "Gender' has nothing to do with "Sex" (the act).  We stand by the information that we publish in the Wiki and you of course are quite free to dissagree with it and it's contents.  However after reviewing the references you've quoted I personally find the Wiki articles to be the better reference.

Steph
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taylor

Hi Stephanie,

That is just it Stephanie, the whole thing with using the words Gender and Sex interchangible is what causes so much confusion.   Nancy Nangeroni is not talking about sex, she is referring only to gender role expression. She lets you know this when she uses the word ( Culture).  Each culture defines masculine and feminine differently to various degrees.  Sex identity is not varied ( some few exceptions) from culture to culture.

I have never had to transtion my masculine Gender, it is just how I have always been. As a Post Op trans male of sorts, this would not apply to me and a lot of others I know. Regardless of intersex status, or Ambiguos Biological Identities, or the absense of any physically observible conflicting sex traits, if the gender is firm, there is no transition taking place in regard to ones Gender Identity. Therefore this term cannot and does not apply to all people with variant identities as claimed.


The other point that I am trying to make is that not ALL people agree with this label and to imply that it is the "standard" and only definition is just not true.  For many the old definition is the most accurate one, and I along with many others stand by it firmly.

The ramifications of accepting this as a umbrella term really are far reaching, and I wish i could get into all of that, but I honestly can't.

My point with Leigh is to not assume that this term has but one accepted definition! I have read enough of what she writes to know that she cares about accuracy and did not feel I would be insulting her in anyway, sharing with her other resources, that would broaden her scope of knowledge on this subject.

Thanks for asking for more clarity,  I sincerely appreciate it!!

Peace,

Taylor
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Leigh

Quote from: taylor on May 03, 2006, 01:09:07 PM


My point with Leigh is to not assume that this term has but one accepted definition! I have read enough of what she writes to know that she cares about accuracy and did not feel I would be insulting her in anyway, sharing with her other resources, that would broaden her scope of knowledge on this subject.

Transgendered was coined as a form of verbal shorthand rather than having to enumerate all the variious initials-tv-cd-is-dg-dk-non op-pre op-post op-yes I am-no I'm not-yada yada yada.
 
  http://www.gender.org.uk/conf/2000/king20.htm    << read the article--transphobic?


Prince (1976: 3) claims to have been the first person to abbreviate the term transvestite to 'TV' in about 1955. She also claims to have 'coined the words "transgenderism" and "transgenderist" as nouns describing people like myself who have breasts and live full time as a woman, but who have no intention of having genital surgery' (Prince, 1997a: 469).

Quotesharing with her other resources, that would broaden her scope of knowledge on this subject. 

;D I really doubt that you could supply me any information relating to this forum that I don't already have, seen or done.

If one chooses to identify as transgendered then more power to them.  I prefer a much shorter word-woman!

Leigh

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Terri-Gene

LeighAnn,

Transphobic?  Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.  you'd ruin some TG's whole life with a knife, but according to them, thier in the same rowboat as SRS involved TS's.  Oh well, don't argue with her Taylor, Leigh has a resourse or two if in any doubt, and she don't get it all from books, trust in that.

And a word of phrase for Virginia Prince, She didn't like being around gays or Transsexuals.... they were crazy people from another planet.

Terri - woman -
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jan c

Quote from: Leigh on January 22, 2006, 01:12:30 AM
Woefully uninformed.
...
Consult the WIKI section here if you need more information.


I think what Taylor was saying about this kind of thing, is that it is tantamount to a Fundamentalist view of the situation.

Consult our Wiki. Consult our Bible.

(BTW the Wiki is a project, a fluid project, composed by its contributors. Considering it in any aspect as a be-all or Alpha to Omega tends to contradict its spirit and intent.)
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taylor

Leigh,

You used the definition of a label as if it were firmly in place and accepted by all. All I did was add that there is more than "one" accepted definition. And I supported my claim, your certianly free to disagree, but it makes it no less true. No where in here did I question if you are a woman, or the fact that I am a man. We may have variables that do not sit right on the norm range, but who cares? I was not the one tossing around a label, I was just correcting how it was being defined as an absolute. 



Jan, exactly!


Peace,

Taylor
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ChefAnnagirl

Dearest Taylor,

In your May 3rd posting, you said:

"I have never had to transtion my masculine Gender, it is just how I have always been. As a Post Op trans male of sorts, this would not apply to me and a lot of others I know. Regardless of intersex status, or Ambiguos Biological Identities, or the absense of any physically observible conflicting sex traits, if the gender is firm, there is no transition taking place in regard to ones Gender Identity. Therefore this term cannot and does not apply to all people with variant identities as claimed."

I must say, I do differ somewhat with this assertion in a few regards. I will give several examples.

If one should have to, has to, and in any way, in any given moment of one's life, does make any specific choice, or "change", in any way, no matter how insignificant, such as having any sort of surgery as an essential, elective, or at very least, highly desired course of action, the physical presence of radical physiological change has been undeniably accomplished.

These moments, in themselves, and during the time(s) that this/these procedure(s) are actually taking place, is in fact, what some could at very least, loosely consider to be a "transitional process".

Not only this, speaking for myself, the entire process, or any part thereof, of in any way, radically changing my relationship(s) to the world around myself any way, in regards to "gender" "self-expression", in almost every way, has required some sort of  "label". The word, "transition", can refer to every single aspect of our lives in every single moment. Time is running, cells are changing, we are physically aging, even if not spiritually, mentally, or emotionally.

We can and do and feel sometimes that we must, against all odds and to the back against the wall of all risks, including our very lives, make specific and conscious choices to express ourselves in any number of ways, that may even require us to change any number of ways in which we would have most "naturally" expressed ourselves, unless repressed due to say, fear of being both physically beaten and emotionally and mentally beaten down by any other person for doing no more than simply attempting to naturally express onself, for example.

In what I personally relate to as a more "unconditionally" UNEDITED form(s), (and for whatever individual reason or circumstance, which no one else should reserve the right to judge, - yeah - if only...) and may have not done so in the past, at any given moment, due to just such judgement and persecution of simple freedom of individual free will of self-expression. This change in and of itself would or could be considered "transitional".  Any specific CHOICE to "correct" or "restore" "self-congruency", in any manner, especially in any noticeable physical or phsyiological manner - would be considered, by most, a transitional process. 

If you were blessed to the extent that none of these daily living "transitional" issues that arise for many people, myself included, some very deeply painful, difficult, challenging, life-threatening, overwhelming - in many ways...
then this, for you, was and still is, obviously truly good for you, and obviously less full of strife and loss and conflicts which many of us will unavoidably have to, or had to, already face in one way or another.

For me, it's not a question of whether or not the "identity is firm" as you put it, it's just a matter of me finally and fearlessly personally going about whatever process(es) and challenges and learning experiences that i will encounter as a direct result of no longer being anything but myself as I would most like to be and express myself more than anything else in my life - finally being more/most comfortable in my own skin, than ever before, and so palpably so,
that most people that have known me are shocked at the difference - still the same person in many ways, but now - more CLEAR and more PRESENT in many ways, than ever before - for example, and it shows, as it were...

For me, i dont consider this the correction of a horrible biological mistake, as i know that some do. For me, I now feel more than ever, as if this was just the next "step" in my own personal evolvement as a person and a human being. If I had been "ready " to take this course of action in my life, at an earlier time, I would have done so, but events and experiences and an overwhelming flood of repressed memories, feelings, and "most natural self-expressions" in every form, simply flooded the circuits, and at a particular moment in my life that i had never arrived at exactly before and in exactly that manner -

Therefore - I was literally overcome, with what in many ways, at the very least, I would have to consider a hugely, beautifully, painfully beautiful, beautifully painful, and amazing and challenging transformational process, and therefore, "transitional" in that it does, over a period of time, at least for me, change all recognizable forms of the past "me", as others percieved it, from one specific recognizable form to another one altogether.   

All of life is a gigantic transitional process, from one moment to the next, and our perception of time is meaningless if we accept that everything in the known universe exists only as it is at that particular moment, and therefore happens only once ever, in every single time and only in every single moment. In other words, every single moment is it's own universal singularity, and the entire equation changes in every single milli-milli-milli-milli second, down to the very last atomic particle, and so on... is in a constant state of "transition", if you will...

On the human scale, we perceive time by recording it's passage, and in days, events, experiences, and moments we call "memories", and what we consider as "passed", "past", or "recorded history". This is the "transitional" makeup of part of the very nature of the process(es) that we all use (differently per individual of course, even if only in minute and almost indectectable ways) of storing them in a specific sequential order, and "labeled" so that they can be referred to in context of other events and experiences that were also subjectively occurring to us/in our lives. Measure of "intensity" and "depth" of affect on the individual person varies greatly of course, and even then, this is only as good as individual and therefore entirely subjective perception, as it's almost.... (exceptions include being what some may refer to as "psychic" phenomena, but even then, it is still not that individuals' direct personal experience) ....impossible to literally stand in someone else's shoes, as it were.

In any case, just thought i'd throw my 2 cents into the fray - Could all be useless mutterings and ramblings.....

Hope you are doing as well as you can, always.
Most sincerely and respectfully yours,


ChefAnnagirl

Level the playing field
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taylor

Hi AnnaGirl,

Let me break down what I said:  "I have never had to transtion my masculine Gender, it is just how I have always been. This is specifically my experience, not asserting that others do not have to alter their gender expression/role/etc. sure they do! As a Post Op trans male of sorts, this would not apply to me and a lot of others I know. Regardless of intersex status, or Ambiguos Biological Identities, or the absense of any physically observible conflicting sex traits, if the gender is firm, there is no transition taking place in regard to ones Gender Identity. Therefore this term cannot and does not apply to all people with variant identities as claimed." 

Now in no way am I asserting that it does not apply to others, there are those that it does and those that it does not. That is why it is not a good umbrella term, it is exclusive, not all inclusive.  Now I do not use the term Gender as the same as ones Sex Identity, these are two very separate words with two very separate meanings.

Do we all go through a transition? Of Course!!  Absolutely we go through a transition.  I transitioned my physical body, I did not transition my gender, and neither have others I have met. I did not "change" my sex, I re established it, I did not transition my gender, it was already there.

As well somewhere I do state, ( I thought it was in this thread) that some transition their gender on a hourly, daily, weekly...etc. basis. This was not the issue, the issue is using a term like "Transgender" as an umbrella term. It is not in my opinion ( shared by many others) a good term at all.

I hope this helps you understand better what I was saying. I enjoyed reading what you shared! It is good to hear from peoples depths!

Peace,

Taylor


Posted at: May 20, 2006, 03:15:38 AM

I recieved this email from a friend that is very active in many political arena's. This was sent to him from a corespondent in Canada, and I have emailed him for the name for this source...when I get it I wil post it.  This again affirms that the term Transgender is NOT agreed with by others, as a good term for an umbrella word.  Please note, I did NOT write this, I am only pasting it here to share with others. For informational purposes only.


The word "transgender" IS meaningless. It is meant by many of its 
>> contemporary users to mean all things to all people, when in fact 
>> it was specifically created to exclude people born with 
>> transsexualism altogether, and was intended to be a "nice" 
>> alternative to crossdresser or tranvestite. The fact that some 
>> people mistake its intention and meaning makes no difference to 
>> its real intention and real meaning. It is a word of exclusion.
>
> This resulted in a big controversy in Canada with much hostitily 
> expressed by the transgender activists on the board of EGALE, the 
> large LGBT organisation in Canada.  Intersex was only included as 
> transgender.  All the Canadian members of OII and one other 
> intersex org in Canada were disturbed by this because it really 
> made intersex invisible both on their site and the issues.  ...

I was asked to attend local meetings of PFLAG a while back, and I did 
do that after I was sent a PFLAG US document purporting that 
"transgender" somehow, magically and mysteriously, includes intersex 
and transsexualism. Well, THAT was a red rag to a bull, as it were! I 
had to go and offer to help after that, but I do know that some 
members of PFLAG here are still being bombarded with transgenderist 
propaganda and continue to waver in their understanding.

> It was sad that we had to make such a press release to be heard.

Source currently unknown ( will post when I recieve it...hopefully soon)
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Susan

Quote from: taylor on May 20, 2006, 03:30:06 AMThis again affirms that the term Transgender is NOT agreed with by others, as a good term for an umbrella word.  Please note, I did NOT write this, I am only pasting it here to share with others. For informational purposes only.

The word "transgender" IS meaningless. It is meant by many of its 
>> contemporary users to mean all things to all people, when in fact 
>> it was specifically created to exclude people born with 
>> transsexualism altogether, and was intended to be a "nice" 
>> alternative to crossdresser or tranvestite.

Transgender for the context of this site is defined as Leigh defined it. This is an inclusive site and does not deny anyone who transcends gender boundaries in the slightest.

While your friend might be of the opinion that transgender was not intended to be inclusive, the term can be or become what the community wishes it defined as. I posted a blog piece about The howl of the wolves, in it I cover the fact that if we divide ourselves, then it becomes that much easier for society to pull us down one group at a time, you should read it.

The gay community took a word "Queer" which was intended as a slur and embraced it making it their own. This totally removed the stigma and power that the word had when used against them. Even if the term transgender was originally meant in the manner you stated then we should embrace it and make it our own.

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on May 03, 2006, 05:44:25 AM
Taylor, I can't for the life of me see where there is any difference in meaning between Leighs comment and the one you cited in your post!

Quote from: LeighSimply put tg encompasses anyone who is or could be considered gender varient.  DQ 's to post ops, cd's to someone who wears clothes or the opposite gender as a fetish.

Quote from: Nancy R. Nangeroni
Transgenderism is the practice of transgressing gender norms. A Transgender person is someone whose gender display at least sometimes runs contrary to what other people in the same culture would normally expect.

And I believe it is common knowledge, on this site anyway that "Gender' has nothing to do with "Sex" (the act).  We stand by the information that we publish in the Wiki and you of course are quite free to dissagree with it and it's contents.  However after reviewing the references you've quoted I personally find the Wiki articles to be the better reference.

Just so you know I agree fully with both of their definitions.
Susan Larson
Founder
Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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  •  

taylor

Hi Susan,

Yep there is more than one way for this word to be used/viewed/etc. That was my main point originally! lol  ;D

I absolutely agree that there should be less division ( there is power in numbers!)  I believe how this union developes will change with time, as will the terminology we all use. Language is a very interesting thing, and powerful too!

Peace,

Taylor
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michelle

I feel that each religious organization has the right to set its rules for marriage but the secular state has to look after the rights of all of its citizens to unite as couples in some form of legal marriage,  so laws should not support anyone religions point of view. 
Be true to yourself.  The future will reveal itself in its own due time.    Find the calm at the heart of the storm.    I own my womanhood.

I am a 69-year-old transsexual school teacher grandma & lady.   Ethnically I am half Irish  and half Scandinavian.   I can be a real bitch or quite loving and caring.  I have never taken any hormones or had surgery, I am out 24/7/365.
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Chaunte

Quote from: michelle on May 28, 2006, 03:18:38 PM
I feel that each religious organization has the right to set its rules for marriage but the secular state has to look after the rights of all of its citizens to unite as couples in some form of legal marriage,  so laws should not support anyone religions point of view. 

I could not agree more.

Chaunte
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michelle

In Florida for purposes of marriage you are the sex that you were on your original (first) birth certificate,  no matter what changes you have made to your body or even if you have had your sex and name legally changed on your drivers licence, passport or gotten a new birth certificate with the opposite sex on it.   


It is not always possible to get society or the to recognize us for who we are.  We just have to be who we are and if our legal papers or physical bodies don't show proof of it we have to be who we are any way and find a way to live with it.   I am female.   At home I can be female.  When I go out of my home I am still female but others see me as male.  So what.   I can't change the world.  I couldn't stop my mother from being an alcoholic and letting her breast cancer kill her,   I couldn't stop my father when he left that night to get beer and had the accident, his cancer spread and he died,   I couldn't make my step dad and mom move back to the Black Hills so I could get my life back,   I couldn't stop my ex from dumping me like I was trash.    How can I make the world see me as female if it doesn't want to.
Be true to yourself.  The future will reveal itself in its own due time.    Find the calm at the heart of the storm.    I own my womanhood.

I am a 69-year-old transsexual school teacher grandma & lady.   Ethnically I am half Irish  and half Scandinavian.   I can be a real bitch or quite loving and caring.  I have never taken any hormones or had surgery, I am out 24/7/365.
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taylor

Hey Michelle,

That is interesting to know about Florida, so I guess I could go to florida, get a guy to marry me for a political point to be made....and have the media, SHOW me and him get married ..., and there would be no out cry? Yea right!  The thing I see is that the world believes what they see...not what is on a piece of paper...sad in a lot of cases, but in this case I personally would find it funny as hell....oh and I would then be married to two people legally...hmmm. 

Would love to hear what others think about this legal maze that has been webbed by all the genius's out there lol

Peace,

Taylor
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AmyNYC

Quote from: taylor on June 03, 2006, 11:53:51 AM
That is interesting to know about Florida, so I guess I could go to florida, get a guy to marry me for a political point to be made....and have the media, SHOW me and him get married ..., and there would be no out cry? Yea right! 
Taylor

Yeah, I just moved back to Alabama (where I grew up), and the conservative attitude has been making me angry.  In fact, Alabama has a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriages on the primary ballot for Tuesday.  Being here (instead of NYC) has made me want to protest in the streets for the first time in my life.

Alabama won't change the gender marker until after surgery, so my grandmother and I just came up with the idea that I could go to the courthouse with another girl and ask to be married.  After they got done laughing at us I could slide my driver's license across the counter and say, "See the gender marker.  According to the State of Alabama I'm male until you 'tell me otherwise'.  Either you change the gender marker to female, or marry us.  You can't have it both ways."  A conservative friend of mine (who DOES NOT believe in same sex marriages) who worked in the courthouse for 30 years said he didn't think there was any chance they'd marry us under any circumstances, and they really wouldn't want to change the marker either.  But he agreed, they can't have it both ways.

Amy
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taylor

Amy,

I think it would be interesting if there were enough of us that were willing to go public ( not likely lol) to demonstrate this whole issue of double laws and standards, one way or the other they would have to make a ruling...because exactly, they cannot have it both ways.  But in the eyes of the people, I can feel quite sure that the laws would be changed based on whatever was closer to "what they see as the truth rule" than whatever else they could come up with!

Peace,

Taylor
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Melissa

You could always marry an FtM.  That would be a legal way to marry a man if you wanted.

Melissa
  •  

taylor

Melissa,

HUH? I don't get it.... hmmm, pondering this lol.

Peace,

Taylor
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