Feminism and Transmen

[jossam]

That's what I meant, equal rights for every gender except I personally focus on women cause after all that's the core of feminism and how it started.

But woah, abolishing the concept of gender and sex? That sounds ridiculous. Sex and gender identity are facts that can't be abolished. They are not concepts. Gender roles can be abolished though because those are social. No more "women in the kitchen and men working" bs. Why not let couples decide? My dad stays in the kitchen a lot. Ironic, since he can be pretty sexist sometimes but at least he doesn't care about gender roles and gladly cooks all day. Or both can go to work. I talked about hetero couples here, obviously.

But tell me how we can abolish sex    I think gender identity is part of sex too and trans people have one sex (or no sex, or something in between) in the brain and the other in the body lol so we might want to readjust our bodies . So gender identity is like the "sex of the brain" (or lack thereof). And we can't really abolish biological facts.
However, we can stop assigning sex to babies by looking at their genitalia, or at least, doctors should be like "ok the baby has female genitalia but we all know there is a tiny possibility that the baby will be trans". Because when a baby is born with certain genitalia everyone automatically assumes its identity will match the genitalia. "It's a girl!" usually does not mean the baby has female genitalia, they also mean it's a girl and will be a woman in the sense of gender identity, so parents already assume things about the future life of their child. They will go buy pink stuff, toys for girls and will talk about boyfriends.
Society should acknowledge sex is not given by genitalia only. Or chromosomes only. There is the brain and the influences hormones had on the brain when the baby was in the womb, and that's far more important than pieces of meat between our legs.
Everything comes from the brain. Chromosomes = genitalia, but pre-natal sexual hormones = sex of the brain. Society focuses on what's easier to see (genitalia) and that's how they assign sex/gender. And this should be stopped because we trans people know how false this is.
But I assume that's not the logic that feminist used because she said we are the enemies    Well she is just a transphobe and hides behind distorted ideologies.

It's cis heteronormativity, folks. THAT's the enemy of LGBT people. If we trans people could come out easily and receive easy medical treatment and not be discriminated against by society, we'd be happier and we'd have no enemies. But right now, our biggest enemy is cisnormativity, not sex.

And I see many trans inclusive feminists attacking cisnormativity. And I am one of those.

[CrazyCatMan]

But tell me how we can abolish sex 

Idk, I said disagree with people that believe these things, I don't believe it myself. The concept that getting rid of sex/gender will solve gender equality is silly to me and invalidates how people identify themselves which is counter productive.

No more "women in the kitchen and men working" bs.

That what I'm saying, as well as no more "people can't be homemaker if they want to". If a person wants to work out side the home that's there choice, just as much as choosing to work in the home. I will never understand why people look down on homemakers/stay at home parents is its noble and important career choice that should be respected, just like any other career.

[Kylo]

As for the bathroom laws and female spaces, has anyone else noticed that bathrooms seem to be the only safe space that women are allowed to have? Whenever anyone talks about female safe spaces elsewhere, it's always 'not all men' and 'reverse sexism'. No one supporting those laws is interested in women having safe spaces; they're interested in using the 'threat' of trans women as a trojan horse to discriminate against all LGBTQIA people.

No.

In fact I notice that there are women's only spaces and women's only groups all over the place but very, very few if any spaces of equivalence for men. Examples just from my own country and local area, I live right next door to a building labelled "Women's Institute", which is a meeting place for women of all age groups where they do various activities like craft fairs in a female-run environment - there is no "Men's institute" here. There is a women's only section in a local gym - there is no "men's only" section of that gym where women are specifically not allowed to go, unlike for women. There is a section of time allotted to women only at the local swimming pool as well - no such equivalent for men in that pool. There is a women's shelter and refuge trust for (female) victims of abuse or needing a temporary shelter or to go with their kids to escape a violent spouse, no such thing here specifically for men suffering the exact same circumstances (in fact the grand total of 1 organization in the UK dedicated to helping battered men has recently been shut down). These are all "safe spaces" where women are specifically encouraged to run it themselves, or the only allowed gender in that space. I see no "men's only" spaces if they wanted a space to be among men and not women as well. A quick Google of my country reveals women only running clubs, female-focused watersports clubs, women's only bike riding groups, and I could go on and on with examples, but no "men's" or "men's only versions" of the same thing advertising a specifically male space.

There are LOTS of women-only spaces out there. Either for reasons of "safety", or reasons of women still just preferring to do things surrounded by women and not men.

Yes I think some of these bathroom bill pushers are using transwomen to marginalize trans people and keep them from being able to present freely in public. But more than a few of them have voiced concern that their wives/daughters/mothers "safe space" of the female bathroom is being invaded. So I do think they value women's 'safe spaces', even if they are not women themselves. The "protection of women" in their bathrooms is about half the argument from what I see. The rest is the dismissal of transwomen as true women.

[Peep]

I'm not saying that there are no women's only spaces, I'm saying that when these spaces exist they're always questioned exactly the way you just did - why don't men have it too. That's why it says ALLOWED to have in my post, not HAVE. Whereas when it comes to bathrooms, the focus is on the comfort of the women using them. I haven't seen any bathroom myth panic about trans men in the mens' room - I may be not reading widely enough, but it seems like the casual majority is about protecting women.

Usually when a woman says she doesn't feel safe in society, there's a chunk of #notallmen comments that will question the need, and be offended that anyone might think they'd ever harass anyone. And then the bathroom myth comes up, and all these men are saying that they'd randomly harass women if they were allowed to?

There is a women's shelter and refuge trust for (female) victims of abuse or needing a temporary shelter or to go with their kids to escape a violent spouse, no such thing here specifically for men suffering the exact same circumstances (in fact the grand total of 1 organization in the UK dedicated to helping battered men has recently been shut down).

I agree completely with this and this is a huge problem. I wish more people questioned this than questioned less vital things like 'why do women get a history month'

[noahjames]

Trans women get a lot of representation as trans people, but not enough as women, particularly in feminist and lesbian spaces. You could talk about how despite being men, trans men are often included in lesbian spaces, where trans women aren't.

I feel that the presence of trans women in the media isn't always positive - that the reason that there's more trans feminine people on tv is that society is more interested in what amab people do - which is lowkey misgendering and liked to femmephobia and toxic masculinity. Some people respond more to afab people being 'strong' or 'not like other girls' but for amab people to be feminine is seen as more negative, trans or cis.

It seems like it's less unusual for afab people to wear masculine clothes (jeans, hoodies, unfitted t-shirts...) than it is for amab people to wear heels, skirts etc, and while logically the idea that skirts represent women is nonsense, society's reaction to trans women often displays how ingrained the association is.

You could also talk about how some trans men internalize misogyny to the extent that they don't believe that feminism is necessary at all.

Also I feel that while I have the experience of being perceived as female, I haven't experienced being female, because I'm not. For example, I don't want my chest, or to see it or to have anyone see it, so I don't know what it's like to want to go topless as a female and be unable to, or to be punished for trying to breast feed in public, etc. However I do know about how badly bras are designed and how women's clothes rarely have pockets, what it's like to feel under threat from the male gaze, etc.

Could you invite a trans woman to join your talk? You could compare the experience of gaining versus loosing male privilege. I don't know if i would do a talk/attend a specifically feminist event unless it was intended to be mixed gender wise (ie trans men weren't the only men there) and unless i could be sure it wasn't an unintentional misgendering, and unless i knew there'd be trans women there too.

Sorry this is vague - this is another reason why I wouldn't want to be the one to try talk about it! I hope i gave you some ideas though

"Trans women get a lot of representation as trans people, but not enough as women"  Wow, YES.  That's the perfect way to put that.  Also think about the types of representation in the media trans women are afforded.  It's almost always that they're either the subject of a joke, or of violence.  I also think, if you choose to do this talk, to do it with a trans woman is a great idea. 

[Charles96]

I have never been a feminist radical or otherwise. Partly because my outlook is why in the world would you let me in as someone who has more in common with the typical cowboy/redneck guy then I do women, and the fact they don't want trans women there, but want people like me.

For me I have wondered if there are more trans men deaths that are either labeled ''men'' or butch lesbian for those who don't pass. I wonder if Brandon Teena story only came out because he is on record saying he was trans, but that is just me.

For me when I came out I wanted all that is with came being male, the good and the bad. Because to me it is where I belong when it comes to roles in the world. I don't want the door opened for me, or my chair pulled out, or all those female things. I don't want the its night and you might not be safe.

There are pros to being either gender, but for me it wasn't about gaining anything, it was about the shoe finally fitting right per say.

I disagree mainly on the trans men don't get as much volience because how many times in liberal Minnesota I have had a straight man insist he could fix me, make me like guys, and make me like being a girl. It might because these are teenage boys, but I doubt it.


On the subject of domestic volience shelters for men I wish there would be more of a effort on that front. The problem is people still hold onto the idea a woman can't hurt a man.

[schwarzwalderkirschtort]

No idea if anyone has mentioned this or not, but the vast majority of serious trans men I know are anti-feminists. Not saying they all are, but all of the ones I know are. Most of us just don't consider it relative anymore. Just a heads up, don't want anyone getting hurt.

[FtMitch]

Honestly, I get sick of people whining so much about gender spaces.  I much prefer coed everything and have never understood why people want women only spaces to exist.  I am a hardcore feminist, and I never wanted to spend time ONLY with women or ONLY with men.  Why can't we judge people by who they are as individual human beings and use THAT to decide if we want to spend time with them instead of using their gender as a way to judge them before we even know them as people?  Yes, gender is an important trait, but I don't use it to decide whether or not I want to spend time with people.  Nor have I ever felt unsafe around men even when I was very effeminate.  Why?  Because I was a very dominate person who was more than willing to knee men in the junk if they did something like catcall me, so guys generally didn't mess with me.  All of these arguments are deep and interesting, but I really think we should all start to focus on people as individual human beings rather than pointing out that they are "men" and "women" and going from there.  I have men and women as friends, and I chose NONE of those friends based on their gender.  Many do not fit specific gender stereotypes.  I actually consider our tendency to want to sequester men and women in different spaces to be a form of sexism.  Let's all just be people together.  And yes, I realize saying this on the Internet will likely get me ripped apart and accused of misogyny.  But I just don't like encouraging people to choose their friends based on gender or judge people in general based on their gender.  How about we hold out for a couple of hours and judge them on who they are as people?

[Kylo]

^ I would prefer this, but probably only because of my particular outlook. I treat all people as the same, I think because I lack the wiring to see myself as "like everybody else" or falling into one of their particular gender camps 100%, but I do know that people tend to see themselves as different by gender. Very different. I mean otherwise we wouldn't use pronouns or get upset if someone used the wrong ones, and we'd only refer to our genders on a doctor's record because that's all it would ever be needed for. We wouldn't even need words like "men" and "women" for everyday use.

But people out there seem to feel more comfortable with the divide and belonging on one particular side of it. It also just seems like a common instinct out there that women need women only spaces because without them they will be "exposed" to men, potential perverts, or something like that. It's not beyond the imagination to have mixed spaces even in intimate settings - I know onsen in Japan have mixed bathing where people are naked and they just don't get worked up about the fact men and women are naked together in a hot spring. It's probably just the trappings of our current culture and levels of restraint. Maybe one day we'll get over it.

[arice]

Honestly, I get sick of people whining so much about gender spaces.  I much prefer coed everything and have never understood why people want women only spaces to exist.  I am a hardcore feminist, and I never wanted to spend time ONLY with women or ONLY with men.  Why can't we judge people by who they are as individual human beings and use THAT to decide if we want to spend time with them instead of using their gender as a way to judge them before we even know them as people?  Yes, gender is an important trait, but I don't use it to decide whether or not I want to spend time with people.  Nor have I ever felt unsafe around men even when I was very effeminate.  Why?  Because I was a very dominate person who was more than willing to knee men in the junk if they did something like catcall me, so guys generally didn't mess with me.  All of these arguments are deep and interesting, but I really think we should all start to focus on people as individual human beings rather than pointing out that they are "men" and "women" and going from there.  I have men and women as friends, and I chose NONE of those friends based on their gender.  Many do not fit specific gender stereotypes.  I actually consider our tendency to want to sequester men and women in different spaces to be a form of sexism.  Let's all just be people together.  And yes, I realize saying this on the Internet will likely get me ripped apart and accused of misogyny.  But I just don't like encouraging people to choose their friends based on gender or judge people in general based on their gender.  How about we hold out for a couple of hours and judge them on who they are as people?

I agree with every word of this.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

[AnxietyDisord3r]

Usually when a woman says she doesn't feel safe in society, there's a chunk of #notallmen comments that will question the need, and be offended that anyone might think they'd ever harass anyone. And then the bathroom myth comes up, and all these men are saying that they'd randomly harass women if they were allowed to?

Boom, drop the mic. Excellent point.

There are men's spaces. The most important is in the courtroom, where men get off for crimes like rape more often than not. All of these "protective" women's spaces are tacit acknowledgements that society refuses to prosecute crimes like groping (sexual assault--see the women's car on the subway), public lewdness (see sex segregated locker rooms), and disturbing the peace (why can't a women's group admit men and operate under Robert's Rules of Order?). Boys will be boys. The ultimate expression of male power in society.

C'mon, guys, lets cut the bull->-bleeped-<-. We should know better than anyone how men and women are treated differently in all spheres of life. And that certain carveouts for the subordinate group do not make them paradoxically the dominant group. Victorian women had far fewer rights than women in Western societies today yet Victorian women could often get off for murder in a way today's women murderers can't. That does not mean Victorian women were more privileged than women today. They tended to get off (with a good lawyer) for sex related crimes where the jury felt that the defendant had no choice but to resort to murder because she had no other social or legal option. You know that woman who killed all those babies? They did her for that.

[AnxietyDisord3r]

Honestly, I get sick of people whining so much about gender spaces.  I much prefer coed everything and have never understood why people want women only spaces to exist.  I am a hardcore feminist, and I never wanted to spend time ONLY with women or ONLY with men. 

I think it's important to try to understand people on their own terms. As a gender variant person who was told from a very young age that I wasn't allowed to be (over and over and over), I became obsessed with androgyny and mixed gender spaces. Anything to evade the "girly girl" label. And remember, our FTM experience, and our desire for mixed spaces is not every FTM experience. I see many FTMs online who are obsessed with men's only spaces such as fraternities and clubs. I personally find overly male or overly female groups to be lame, but that's just me.

As for the gym, as I've come to understand the role gender dysphoria has played in my relationship towards the gym, I'm willing to be more forgiving of women who feel out of place in a mixed (read: male-dominated) gym. The old school gym culture was not set up for what most women are seeking out of a gym, if not somewhat hostile. There are more modern mixed gyms today that keep everybody happy, but you can still find bro gyms everywhere and that's what places like Curves are responding to. (Btw, I've heard Curves is a terrible organization and they suck, but that's neither here nor there.)

I know it's easy to project ourselves on everyone else but that's our problem, isn't it? We're not like everybody else. We've got to accept that cis women don't see things or feel things like we do.