could i be intersexed?

[Enigma]

The incidence of true hermaphroditism, in which both genitals are present is something along the magnitude of a million to one.

Ambiguous genitals is what most IS babies are born with and even then they are generally normal in outward appearance, and only later does a supposed hernia/tumor turn out to be ovarian or testicular tissue.  Tissue, not the entire ovary or testicle, just tissue.

"Micro-penis" was a popular reason to perform GRS days after birth for sometime.  The reasoning, odd enough as it was, being that a man with a micro-penis was incapable of sexually satisfying a woman and therefore, some how, psychologically better off being raised as a girl.  Thankfully, that appears to be no longer the case.  Interestingly enough, surgery was also performed on infants with enlarged clitorises (clitori?) in order to reduce their size, for much the same reasons.

Other IS babies (genetically male) fail to respond to the male hormones (AIS, partial-AIS, etc) and do not develop male genitals, though genetically male they have outwardly appearing female genitals.  This condition usually isn't diagnosed, again, until puberty usually brought on by parental concerns over a lack of sexual maturation, including menarche.

And as others have pointed out, there are a million other variations out there.

Don't claim to be something you're not when there are far too many of us here knowledgeable enough to see through your nonsense...

[buttercup]

firstly, what does being a 'clinical psychologist' have to do with a MEDICAL condition

wrong, hermaphroditism and Intersex arnt the same thing, 'hermaphroditism' is one name for a form of IS, NOT all IS people have ambiguous genitalia, or both, quite a lot, infact most, only find out from genetic testing prior to IVF or other treatments where it would be found. Intersex conditions vary from this extreme, to both sets of genitalia.
Intersex has nothing medically linking it  to 'dominant' male and female genders coexisting.
thats not a simple explanation, its wrong.
when did you retire? the 40s?
R

I agree Rachael

[Michelle F]

Dear Buttercup,

I wanted to thank you for the message. I cannot reply to personal messages at this time or e-mail.

By the way I don't know why anyone would harass you based on your picture, then again, I understand that it is a headshot and you are the best judge of whether you are being harassed or not.

All I know is that your message was filled with compassion and kindness and that I am grateful.

Hugs to you
Michelle

[buttercup]

That's O.K Michelle, unfortunately my avatar is not me, it is Gwen Stefani!  I hope you find the answers you're looking for and pay no mind to those women (easy to say I know).  I think you are reaching out because its hard to bare the cruelity from the outside world, of that I truly understand.
Would you believe, I put my picture up this morning, for about 10 mins, and then took it off.  I am not brave enough yet.

buttercup   

[gothique11]

yeah, being IS can cause all kinds of issues, depending on different stuff. There's a danger for people to validate themselves by being IS -- but validation of who you are shouldn't come from being IS, but you just know who you are and that's all.

[Enigma]

yeah, being IS can cause all kinds of issues, depending on different stuff. There's a danger for people to validate themselves by being IS -- but validation of who you are shouldn't come from being IS, but you just know who you are and that's all.

I think the appeal of being IS is it somehow makes being TS not your fault.  If that makes any sense...

[Rachael]

it makes plenty of sense, to anyone who isnt intersex... by the way, just to let you know, not all IS people are ts... so its EVIDENTLY our fault too...
R

[Schala]

Not always the case....low or very little testoterone doesn't always indicate an intersexed condition.....but it's possible.

I thought I was intersexed for a long time because I had a very low testoterone count. My voice didn't break and I don't have any visable sign of an adams apple. I also didn't have body hair like males have...

Development does vary but I pushed and pushed for tests. At first they thought I wasn't intersexed but as time went on they did more tests and came to the conclusion I have an intersexed condition.

I can so very relate on this, docs and shrinks dismissing anything incongruent as luck, chance-happening, and "I know so-and-so who had some of 'that' but isn't intersex."

I didn't really push for tests, yet. My family doctor is very...umm, startled, by my transition - not that he's all that prejudiced, he prescribes my HRT (though ever so reluctantly). I need to see an endocrinologist (which I will in four days), then maybe I can push for tests.

I don't suspect internal organs, but I do suspect PAIS, and, to a lesser extent, mosaicism. When I learned of the existence of intersex conditions, two years ago, it felt right - my intuition told me I *had* to investigate this, get to the heart of it. The same way I felt when I learned of transition, and when I finally did it a year later (I pushed for it a good part of that year).

I've had doctors tell me I just had a late puberty, and I've been naive enough to believe it most my life, having no other explanations. I mean, looking pre-pubertal at 24 has its perks...but I have three brothers, all younger than me, all significantly more virilized than me.

Unfortunately or fortunately, I had no doctor at all between my pediatrician until 9 years old, and my family doctor at 23 years old (and up to now). Unfortunately because it means no one to monitor my development, fortunately because they could have decided an averse course of action without my input if something could be done about it.

Hopefully I get to know more about it.

Oh and I did have some tests before, just nothing conclusive. Blood tests show me as midrange testosterone (I had the numbers and can confirm it), but certainly not midrange male development. Normal estrogen (what the doc said, can't confirm it). Normal LH/FSH also (doc said too, bit too complicated to look up).

My family doc decided to follow some 'feeling' he had that I might be XXY, and ordered a blood karyotype. Seven months later (yay for waiting...), I got the result: from a blood sample of 2 cells, they are 46,XY. Mosaicism is hard to detect, so I'm not giving much credence to that, I want a more precise test.

Afterwards my family doc said intersex was impossible, since 46,XY isn't intersex. I mentioned PAIS (which I had thought from the beginning was more of a possibility than 47,XXY) and he dismissed it, said something about having a 'female soul'...which is odd for a generalist to say. He also seems to find 'new wonders' about me every time we meet. Like he noted that my testes were small for my age, that my hands were feminine, and my lips full (I'm not sure how scientific those observations are, nor do I think my hands or lips have an influence on an intersex condition's presence). I'm the first person to come to him for transition-related things (in his 25 years practice) so I'll excuse his behavior to ignorance.

I noted the general absence of PAIS-related support on the net. I've looked and looked and only found any place for support in general intersex places and one extremely small yahoo group. So anything that could help me find information on the condition is welcome - it seems I have to do my homework, because docs certainly don't seem enclined to do it. Same goes for hormone dosages or other issues, I had to all look it up on my own. I'm not DIY, but I might as well, considering I dictate my prescription dosages to my doc.

Note to moderator: I know this topic is more than 30 days old...but so are most topics in this section, and I'm replying to a direct comment (in quote) I felt more or less says the same thing. Also I'm not trying to spark a particular discussion on the topic.

[Rachael]

heh, i pretty much do that to my doc... hes pretty helpful, but clueless, so i lead him...
I know what you meant about complicated investigation, but dont put too much stock in wanting to be IS....
and if you are, seriously, you said you felt bad for beliveing the docs saying it was just late puberty, dont. you will hate yourself for the rest of your life... accept it happened and move on. Because you sure as hell wont feel any better dwelling in the past, and whatifs...

R

[Schala]

Well I'll be clear, I won't get any additional benefit legally or socially for being recognized as intersex. My name change will still be a gruesome thing (because of civil law), my 'M' won't be changeable pre-op, whatever I say - and my family won't accept me more than they already do (which is not bad at all as it is). So I don't have anything to gain in proving it, except peace of mind, oh and knowing contraindications for meds and such might be of benefit later.

Given midrange testosterone, FSH, LH, estrogen levels, a 46,XY karyotype and no serious problem otherwise - I have to dismiss the "late puberty" theory as unproven assumption, like intelligent design.

Pre-HRT:
Body hair in female range, facial hair very minimal in spread/growth and started at 21, no armpit hair (never had any), normal pubic hair.
Extremely small ossature for my height, very skinny also, despite normal eating habits (and I certainly don't diet). My height is normal compared to parents/sibling though, which means average (for a girl).
Delayed growth in childhood and teenage years (fell from 40th percentile when I was 2, to 7th percentile when I was 9.)
Nearly absent adam's apple (you have to feel it) and accompanying androgynous voice that never gave me an issue.
No muscle gain despite medium-heavy manual work for 5 years (god I loved it so much too...not...it was hell).

and all this despite having 3 controls, brothers of 14, 16 and 23 who have:
-deeper voices (all of them)
-more proeminent adam's apple (all again)
-more body hair (two of them)
-more facial hair (all of them, yes even the 14 one)
-more muscle development (two of them, the last one has nearly none yet, like me)
-normal armpit hair (all of them)

I have no sister to compare to though.

I'd call it chance if it was only one of them (the oldest), but all three...plus being marginal in looks (I passed as androgynous pre-transition, meaning I passed as "Is it a boy or a girl?" often.)

-------------

I won't hate myself the rest of my life for being intersex, I don't see a reason why I would. I don't really dwell on the what ifs. I'm only 25 and I hardly see what I could have done earlier when I was 'shut down' (personality repressed to survive, from 11 to 22) considering I didn't really see myself alive and most likely would not have found any information then (I only got internet access at 18 and learned of trans's and intersex's existence by chance later).

[Rachael]

your 15... late puberty isnt THAT rare... you dont just break out in beard and muscles from age 12....

and trust me... you really dont know WHAT your talking about when you say you 'want' to be intersexed...

there is no holy grail
you wont feel better
it will make your life worse IF you are, and i seriously doubt it...

[cindybc]

Hi Schala

Holly smokes! What you have stated in your post could have been a carbon copy of my life. I to didn't start showing any signs of a young adult male until I was 25. There were only two of us in the family, my sister who was four years older then me and myself. We really got along well and I really missed her after she left home. I was a loner most of the time, I didn't like any other kids around me, except for a select few. My best friend was a girl named Helen. I knew there was something different about me but growing up back in the sixties and seventies there just wasn't anyone I could go to without tacking a chance in facing a shooting squad. I confided with my mom, she was the only person in the world I could trust. And no unfortunately I am not IS although that would certainly have solved a lot of problems for me if I had been.

Cindy   

[Schala]

your 15... late puberty isnt THAT rare... you dont just break out in beard and muscles from age 12....

and trust me... you really dont know WHAT your talking about when you say you 'want' to be intersexed...

there is no holy grail
you wont feel better
it will make your life worse IF you are, and i seriously doubt it...

It's true that being 15 is a bit early to be talking about late puberty. I didn't have ANY change before I was 16, no acne, soprano voice, very short, etc. But it's also a very good time to start HRT - regardless of being IS or not.

@Princess: Do you have other signs or symptoms besides late puberty?

Posted on: January 14, 2008, 09:02:51 PM

Hi Schala

Holly smokes! What you have stated in your post could have been a carbon copy of my life. I to didn't start showing any signs of a young adult male until I was 25. There were only two of us in the family, my sister who was four years older then me and myself. We really got along well and I really missed her after she left home. I was a loner most of the time, I didn't like any other kids around me, except for a select few. My best friend was a girl named Helen. I knew there was something different about me but growing up back in the sixties and seventies there just wasn't anyone I could go to without tacking a chance in facing a shooting squad. I confided with my mom, she was the only person in the world I could trust. And no unfortunately I am not IS although that would certainly have solved a lot of problems for me if I had been.

Cindy   

25 is unlike Princess's case here - puberty starts between 12-16, give or take a year or two (not give or take 9). Not all intersex cases are obvious. Do you know what are the cases most detected? Those with very very apparent symptoms (absent menarche when phenotypically female, heavy gynecomastia when phenotypically male accompanied by larger hips and small testes and low testosterone levels). Those with smaller, or more easy-to-explain-away symptoms (something not as apparent as D cups for example) are rarely detected if they weren't already at birth.

Most Doctors:
1) Don't know intersex exists in reality and that people have such conditions rather more than their textbooks suggest, and can live as normal productive members often (and look totally normal).

2) Understand intersex to be "ambiguous genitalia" (either now or at birth, most likely 'now' to be considered by them) and nothing else.

3) Are quick to dismiss things offhand with never verifying anything, even when the tests to verify those claims are free (and certainly not paid by them anyway) and the person making said claims very lucid and certified as a sane person.

4) Hate to be told they 'forgot' or did not notice something, as if they obviously should have noticed if there was anything to notice and anyone else telling them is dismissed by a "I'm the doc, I know better." attitude.

5) Have no idea how to prescribe or consider crosssex hormone dosages even if they prescribe menopausal drugs (estrogen, progesterone) and prostate cancer ones (androcur, spironolactone) in other settings.

6) Are apparently not willing to learn due to their ego in point 4), or a fear of the unknown.

So Cindy, unless you were tested as negative to all tests, it's still a possibility. My mom might be a PAIS carrier and not know about it, and that wouldn't be farfetched. Carrier symptoms are usually mild or none, you don't know unless tested. Of course a carrier testing really only matters if you plan to give birth or have before.

Males assume:
-They have 46,XY chromosomes
-They have functional testes
-They are fertile

Females assume:
-They have 46,XX chromosomes
-They have functional ovaries
-They are fertile

Unless told otherwise.

Many find out they have PAIS or XXY by chance later, even after being post-op transitioning. Two occrurences of a post-transition PAIS diagnosis in a male-to-female trans are shown on AISSG UK site. One had doctors investigate because she said she had no gonads (post -orchi), the second one had it found out because she investigated it herself with the help of some UK doctors, she pushed for the tests.

So yeah, it's not as easy as people think to get diagnosed, unless you were diagnosed at birth or pre-natally. People ignore clues and say its all normal.

[Schala]

I was chatting with a young potential MTF on a different chat who was 24 years old.
Everything he was describing was a dead ringer for Klinefelter Syndrome.
Now, obviously I'm not a doctor, but in 24 years he had never had a chromosone test or had testosterone measured.
I find that criminal.

Renate

That's quite common actually. Chromosome tests (karyotype, FISH, swab) are not performed routinely, only when someone suspects something is off, or for competitions (though olympics stopped doing it due to too many IS women showing up in their results).

Hormones are also not typically measured unless a competent doctor monitors your health and finds they could be 'too low' (which they won't usually suspect at 12), they might sometimes dismiss it as "give it time" (which might be true in some cases, definitely not all). Hormones will be routinely measured when on HRT, normally. But that all hangs on being monitored by a doc willing to order the tests and willing to follow the patient, and the patient being able to afford said tests. Karyotypes and FISH are also very costly in non public-funded systems.

[cindybc]

Hi Schala
Well if I were IS no one told me about it, I had SRS 4 years ago. But my feelings emotions and how I see and interpret things just never added up to what should that of a males. I find this subject quit interesting though.

Cindy

[Rachael]

I was chatting with a young potential MTF on a different chat who was 24 years old.
Everything he was describing was a dead ringer for Klinefelter Syndrome.
Now, obviously I'm not a doctor, but in 24 years he had never had a chromosone test or had testosterone measured.
I find that criminal.

Renate

If it isnt causing you harm, and you arnt adversely affected by it. then why bother diagnosing something that will only do bad?

anyway, why HE?

so im assuming thier
overweight,
really tall
gynocamastic,
and almost prepubecent?
R

[Rachael]

well you said m2f....

and sometimes telling someone thier intersexed can rock a perfectly happy life/family, with no good reason...
and klienfelters has no 'cure' and the sideeffects arnt fatal. so what better position does it put you in?
some dont belive its IS unless your genetals are ambiguous, KFS imo is IS as there is chromasonal abormality.
R >

[cindybc]

I had to look that word up, I never heard of it before. Well I found a definition in the Encyclopedia

http://www.reference.com/search?q=Klinefelter

Cindy

[darkcrab]

To know is never a bad thing. It is what you do with knowledge that is a bad thing, but I do agree with Rachael that transsexuals have it easier in this way: transsexuals get to choose and intersexuals do not. Now let me clarify, choose in the sense of what surgical procedures are done to their bodies. Many intersexual individuals are surgically and chemically modified without their permission and without their foreknowledge because they are far to young to have a real grasp of what it means to have these things done to them.

It is extremely unfortunate.

Now as far as living as an intersexual or living as a transsexual, life is not easy for anyone. Everyone has problems and everyone thinks their problems are the worst. The most important thing in life is to try to come to some type of understanding with one another so that we can help each other as we are able.

No man or woman or human being is an island all alone.