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why are people in America so obsessed with grammar and spelling?

Started by CrazyCatMan, May 06, 2016, 02:59:43 PM

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Rafaela

See, I'm not correcting any of your last post. I know what you mean and accept the errors as I know where you're coming from, but it still irks me a wee bit  ;D

Discrimination and prejudice in any form should not be condoned.
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zirconia

Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 06, 2016, 09:01:19 PM
I always found schools particularly colleges demands for perfect grammar/communication skills often used a excuse discrimination against people with learning disabilities. When I was in school teachers told me I stupid and inferior to my fellow student because I couldn't spell, I was often told I was worthless and wound never amount to anything

That must have felt awful. Fortunately not all schools these days are like that. I have two young relatives who were dyslexic. I say were, because both their parents and the schools they attended made a serious effort to address the problem. They succeeded.

In one case the breakthrough came when someone realized the child was trying to read each word backwards. The next step was to practice reading with the book held upside down. After a few years this child was able to read and write without any issues.

The other case was a bit more difficult. The problem appears to have stemmed from rushing through stages of childhood without mastering all skills one normally acquires at each level. The prescription was to encourage going back to practice. This child was even told to walk on all fours for a while. His progress took a bit longer, but eventually he also overcame his disabilities.

What I wanted to say was that discrimination based on substandard linguistic skills is obviously non-productive. Many people I know don't speak, read or write their native language well. That doesn't make them any less intelligent. However, at the same time I feel that at least at school, at home, and at a workplaces that requires accurate and precise communication a conscious effort to help people improve their language skills should be a given. In some environments I've worked in miscommunication can cost lives or livelihoods.

I've had to function in multilingual environments more than once, and know from personal experience how limiting it is to be unable to communicate. Because of this, if someone at work or among my friends wants or does not mind help I try to do what I can. If assistance is rejected I desist. In other circles I generally don't bother...
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Beth Andrea

Quote from: kittenpower on May 06, 2016, 05:35:29 PM
As far as Doctors having bad handwriting; I think it has more to do with writing extremely fast and using a combination of acronyms/symbols/abbreviations. And for the grammar and spelling obsession we seem to have in the USA; that's just how we roll 🇺🇸

'MURICA!!!

Proper spelling and grammar is just...well, proper. A single error is understandable, but an entire paragraph is not.

If one spent 30 seconds on proofreading before posting, most could be corrected imho. 30 seconds isn't that much time when one considers how much time was used in writing the original post.

We spend 20 minutes+ getting ready to go out to work...what's 20 seconds to check if your zipper is up or your slip isn't showing?
...I think for most of us it is a futile effort to try and put this genie back in the bottle once she has tasted freedom...

--read in a Tessa James post 1/16/2017
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KathyLauren

Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 06, 2016, 05:16:59 PM
I'm not really talking about totally unintelligible writing, people can read most of the stuff I write but still complain about little things (for the most part)  There are aspects of grammar you can easily tell by content.  There, they're, and  their can easily be told by context. I know Indiana is a state even if it is not capitalized.  I can tell that you mean can't even when it is spelled cant. things like that.
For the most part, I just roll my eyes and carry on, because, you are right, the meaning can usually be extracted from the mangled grammar.  But sometimes it is difficult.

One that I am finding more and more is the use of 'can' when the context suggests they probably meant 'can't', and similar dropped negatives.  I find that bizarre: saying the opposite of what you mean.  You read it through the way it is written and then slam on the brakes because it makes no sense.  Then you read it two or three more times to establish the context.  Finally you realize that what they meant wasn't what they wrote.  Too much work!
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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IdontEven

Okay, I'm sure my grammar, tense, and sentence and paragraph structure suck most of the time, but I do my best with the bits I remember. English is a very ambiguous language, with completely archaic and arbitrary rules. But that's because it just steals everything from other languages, which I kind of dig actually. I've heard it said that "We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." Language evolves or it dies, just like every other living thing. While some usages do bother me, such as using literally to mean figuratively, I try to appreciate the beauty of a language that adapts itself to changes in time and circumstance.

Eloquence and elegance in the use of language is something I greatly admire and aspire to, and I get quite happy when I find a new word I like. Both of which are probably really sad, and I can only guess the extent to which my writing comes across as both pretentious and ignorant at the same time. But I like cool words so I try to use them to deliver the full meaning and nuance of the thought I'm trying to convey. Earlier this year I stumbled across the word "transmundane", I was happy I found that one :)

As far as correcting other people's mistakes, I generally try not to as I don't want to embarrass or insult anyone whose intent was not malicious. Personally, I would prefer for people to correct me so that I can try to improve myself, though I see how it can be rude and condescending to point out where someone else is wrong.

I don't judge for any mistakes I encounter except in two cases - 1. When they're correcting someone else for something, grammar related or not, and 2. if it's in a publication of some sort. If you're publishing something and you don't bother to find and fix your mistakes, or at least get someone else to point them out to you, then why should I take what you're writing seriously? You certainly don't. Forum posts, personal blogs, and other informal writings excepted.

Also, I'm kind of embarrassed to post anything on this subject, as I guarantee that there are tons of mistakes. And I know it's overly verbose, sorry  :embarrassed:
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
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CrazyCatMan

Quote from: zirconia on May 07, 2016, 05:23:18 AM
"I always found schools particularly colleges demands for perfect grammar/communication skills often used a excuse discrimination against people with learning disabilities. When I was in school teachers told me I stupid and inferior to my fellow student because I couldn't spell, I was often told I was worthless and wound never amount to anything"

That must have felt awful.

It did, even now it hurts thinking about it a little. unfortunately they were kind of right, It didn't matter how well I did in college or how hard I worked. I still needed help from vocational rehab to get a job. Had two job offer revoked after they found out about my medical conditions, had one other job forced me out of work with poor working conditions and two other cut my hours and give me nonsense jobs to keep me out of the way. For some reason I though if could show I was skilled or smart enough no one would care that I was disabled.

Quote from: zirconia on May 07, 2016, 05:23:18 AM
Fortunately not all schools these days are like that.

That good to hear.  ;D
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CrazyCatMan

Quote from: IdontEven on May 07, 2016, 08:56:04 AM
O I get quite happy when I find a new word I like. Both of which are probably really sad, and I can only guess the extent to which my writing comes across as both pretentious and ignorant at the same time.

I love learning new words, probably why I loved pharmacology when everyone else hated it.

Quote from: IdontEven on May 07, 2016, 08:56:04 AM
As far as correcting other people's mistakes, I generally try not to as I don't want to embarrass or insult anyone whose intent was not malicious. Personally, I would prefer for people to correct me so that I can try to improve myself, though I see how it can be rude and condescending to point out where someone else is wrong.

I have no problem when teachers or the people that edit my papers correct me nicely but I see so many people correcting maliciously or as a way to try to win an argument.


Quote from: IdontEven on May 07, 2016, 08:56:04 AM
Also, I'm kind of embarrassed to post anything on this subject, as I guarantee that there are tons of mistakes. And I know it's overly verbose, sorry  :embarrassed:

don't be embarrassed. I understood you fine and too me that is all that matters. I believe your should never be embarrassed to talk or speak your mind, no matter how poorly or well you write or talk.
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Eevee

Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 07, 2016, 09:16:55 AM
I have no problem when teachers or the people that edit my papers correct me nicely but I see so many people correcting maliciously or as a way to try to win an argument.
And this is where I will agree with you. While I believe in being as coherent as possible in your writing, using someone's grammatical or spelling errors to show that the point of the message is incorrect is a straw man fallacy. Don't be an ass about it.

Eevee
#133

Because its genetic makeup is irregular, it quickly changes its form due to a variety of causes.



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Jacqueline

While not an expert and not OCD about it, I do like correct grammar and spelling. I am terrible at spelling but spend time to check it.

English is a language that is begged, borrowed and stolen. Therefore, the possibility of confusion is huge.

What is language? It is a means of communication. Whether we are talking about technical information or our inner most thoughts. It is a way to share and pass that information on.

If words are strung together in a way that does not follow generally accepted rules or conventions, we are at risk of passing along the wrong information; or being misunderstood.

I would agree that we are able to get through most messages, texts, and posts that are not "proper'. However, it takes more time and brainpower. I'm lazy.

With warmth,

Joanna
1st Therapy: February 2015
First Endo visit & HRT StartJanuary 29, 2016
Jacqueline from Joanna July 18, 2017
Full Time June 1, 2018





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CrazyCatMan

Quote from: Joanna50 on May 07, 2016, 03:09:29 PM
If words are strung together in a way that does not follow generally accepted rules or conventions, we are at risk of passing along the wrong information; or being misunderstood.

I would agree that we are able to get through most messages, texts, and posts that are not "proper'. However, it takes more time and brainpower. I'm lazy.

I totally understand where you're coming from but I think I really depends on what you believe is "proper". There is a big difference between prescriptive grammar and descriptive grammar.

Prescriptive grammar is a belief that there is only one proper way of using grammar, and that there is a distinct right and wrong way of using language.

Descriptive grammar is a belief that any way that gets the point across is proper grammar so as long as someone can be understood there is no right or wrong way.

Both theories are accepted in linguistics. Melissa A. Fabello wrote an interesting article on how prescriptive grammar methods effects feminism and the "social justice movements" in general http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/05/grammar-snobbery/
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CrazyCatMan

Quote from: Beth Andrea on May 07, 2016, 05:40:07 AM
If one spent 30 seconds on proofreading before posting, most could be corrected imho. 30 seconds isn't that much time when one considers how much time was used in writing the original post.

Many people are incapable of writing with correct grammar whether they spend 30 seconds or 24 hours. I'm one of those people, I can do no better no matter how long I spend. My doctors claimed it was a medical miracle I could talk, read and write at all. Some people don't consider there grammar wrong in the first place, they were raised and taught to talk the way they do and to them it is correct.
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IdontEven

Quote from: Midnightstar on May 07, 2016, 06:51:44 PM
I could never spell like others and i used to be very upset because no matter how hard i tried i could never learn to spell as good as them.

I know that feel.

Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 07, 2016, 05:43:28 PM
Many people are incapable of writing with correct grammar whether they spend 30 seconds or 24 hours. I'm one of those people, I can do no better no matter how long I spend. My doctors claimed it was a medical miracle I could talk, read and write at all.

That's amazing, I never would have guessed you had any problems at all based on your writing. It's far better than a lot of things I read.

And I'm sorry about your cousin; the world can be a cruel and unfair place. It does have its bright spots though :)
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
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CrazyCatMan

Quote from: IdontEven on May 07, 2016, 06:55:49 PM
I know that feel.

That's amazing, I never would have guessed you had any problems at all based on your writing. It's far better than a lot of things I read.

And I'm sorry about your cousin; the world can be a cruel and unfair place. It does have its bright spots though :)

thanks, I use a computer to write and read but it can only do so much. The program is called kurzweil it was made for people with visually impairments but my speech therapist had me start using it in middle school. Technology is amazing. 

Thank you, my cousin has had a good life and I'm happy she will be able to live her life without adult worries.
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CrazyCatMan

Quote from: Midnightstar on May 07, 2016, 07:06:28 PM
I had to rewrite what i said it came out to long and wasn't worded good.

I'm going to put this short and simple instead
First of i have a lot of experience with this because as a young kid was bullied very heavily because i have bad spelling and grammar. Hence why some people still sometimes see me being self confident and saying "I'm sorry for my bad spelling" yea, it's stuck with me for a long time. Iv'e always wanted to spell always wanted to be like them people who made themselves out to look like protectionists on spelling. But little did i understand at that time people like that aren't worth the effort and they are mean these people are often what iv'e come to realize as "Trolls" they meaningfully out to create harm and cause chaos to other people for the thrill. I used to try getting them to understand people who couldn't spell but they didn't want to be apart of that understanding or learning process. Some have a chance and are not as bad once told why you can't actually spell but others/many not so much sad but true iv'e found it to be. Many of them are doing what they do because they themselves have low confidence in something inside their life there just like childhood bullies accept they haven't learned to grow up with respect and they continue to hurt others. I wouldn't say it's the people in america i think it's the mean kind of people any where inside the world who do this and the reasons have become clear to me over time. Don't get me wrong though some people like this just need to be asked nicely to stop or spoken to so i'm speaking from the end that isn't so willing to learn. And the ones not willing to learn or be open and nice are the ones that don't care.
Iv'e seen them range from all over the place in every state or country though.

Sorry I think I missed your first post. Sorry you were bullied so much, it is terrible. Things like that shouldn't happen but I understand why they do? I have noticed too that bullies often have low self esteem or get a power high from being mean to others. unfortunately understanding this doesn't make the victims of bullying feel any better, or makes the pain go way (sure wish it did though). Don't even get me started on trolls.

I agree that it is not just an issue among Americans but I have only been in America(and Canada) and I have no experience living any were else so I didn't feel it was my place to say everywhere. Its true that people sometimes just need to be told about other points of view, I think ignorance is the base cause of a lot issues and it always makes me feel good when I see people open to change and learn. ;D
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Jacqueline

Okay. I get what you are saying. Let's pull out an old chestnut. Here is why grammar and punctuation saves lives:
"Let's eat, Grandma"
Vs
"Let's rest Grandma"

Or the name of a book that has words that read:
Eats, Shoots and Leaves.
It has a picture of a Panda on it. You could easily conjure up an image with a cowboy hat, smoking gun and a half eaten plate of food on a saloon table.


Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

1st Therapy: February 2015
First Endo visit & HRT StartJanuary 29, 2016
Jacqueline from Joanna July 18, 2017
Full Time June 1, 2018





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V M

The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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V M

I'm not particularly obsessed with proper grammar or spelling and I don't get angry with folks when they misspell or use various words incorrectly

I'll try to help them if I can and I don't wish to embarrass them, but mostly I find their illiteracy somewhat humorous and sometimes it's somewhat entertaining to try to figure out what someone is on about

But that's just me and I don't always get everything right either so who am I to judge? However, I have worked rather hard to improve upon my literary skills in order to hopefully convey the proper meaning of the topic at hand

You might possibly be amazed by how many Americans and other folks from English speaking countries struggle with literacy as well

Hugs

The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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mac1

Quote from: Rafaela on May 07, 2016, 03:00:45 AM
See, I'm not correcting any of your last post. I know what you mean and accept the errors as I know where you're coming from, but it still irks me a wee bit  ;D

Discrimination and prejudice in any form should not be condoned.
I too find it annoying when people use except/excepting/excepted when they actually mean accept/accepting/accepting.
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Jacqueline

Quote from: V M on May 09, 2016, 08:50:31 PM
I thought it was "Let's eat Grandma"  >:-)

Exactly. I almost wish I meant to do that. Not really the point I was making but pretty confusing.
(That will teach me not to look closer at my phone when trying to post from it).  ;)

Warmly,

Joanna



1st Therapy: February 2015
First Endo visit & HRT StartJanuary 29, 2016
Jacqueline from Joanna July 18, 2017
Full Time June 1, 2018





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Rafaela

I accept errors from automakers except when the word was "auto complete"  :angel:  :police: >:-) >:-) ::)
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