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Intense body shame

Started by AnxietyDisord3r, April 23, 2016, 03:02:35 PM

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AnxietyDisord3r

Intense shame about your body--anybody else experience this?

I was meeting with an in person trans support group and one of the girls brought up junior high gym, cutting gym so as not to be naked in the locker room.

I was also terrified of the locker room, although I liked PE to much to cut. I tried to get my female friends interested in petitioning the school to put up curtains, but they didn't care. I didn't understand why I was so horrified to be undressing in there and the other girls didn't care.

I also felt ashamed, about 13 yo, when I could no longer do chin-ups like the boys.

I wear giant t-shirts when I go swimming, for example, because I don't want anyone to see my shape.

But I'm also ashamed of wanting a penis as well.

Ya feel me? ::)
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Peep

Basically yes to all of the above :/ I also used to experience a mix of having parts I don't like, and being stared at by men and a few women for having parts that i don't like that they do like...

however i got so disassociated from my body last year that i went in the opposite direction sometimes, and probably would have let someone tattoo random scribbles on my body and not cared, so there's also that haha

The penis-shame thing is probably internalised transphobia. i also think about the Freudian penis-envy thing a lot too :/

I don't think it's right to tell us not to be ashamed of our bodies, because if it was that easy to just stop we wouldn't have a problem. But i try to focus on the idea that taking control of my body means i don't have to feel ashamed for having one.

i also think this isn't an exclusively trans issue - cis women are also often made to feel ashamed for having bodily functions, breast feeding, etc, so we're not alone
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Elis

Yeah same. I hated PE because of the open changing rooms. I used to change in the toilets but still felt awkward as I was the only one doing so. In the end I just stopped going to PE class. I felt ashamed about my body through all of my teen years. The chest bumps made me feel especially awful. I long for the day that I can go swimming in just some swimming trunks :(. I hated wearing a one piece and despised being forced to go swimming for school and with my parents.

I don't want understand what is meant by penis shame though; sorry for being ignorant  :embarrassed:. I don't really have any bottom dysphoria. Although I often feel castrated. It must be wonderful to be able to have the option to go out or sleep with someone without the worry or shame (maybe more embarrassment) that I don't have the parts people expect I should have.

I'm much better about liking my body and not feeling ashamed of it. It's a man's body no matter what others think.
They/them pronouns preferred.



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Kylo

Yup.

Although I don't feel ashamed for wanting a penis.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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AnxietyDisord3r

I feel castrated, or rather, neutered. I'm obsessed with the notion that someone (an obstetrician perhaps) cut my penis off. I know this is extremely unlikely to be true, but that's how it feels.

I grew up in the Northeast, where there is or was intense hostility towards masculine women and "wanting to be a man". Plus I was steeped in 2nd wave feminism which includes the consistent theme "Against phallocentrism". The penis is metonymy for male power in society. It gets so overloaded with symbolism that maybe the actual bodypart is forgotten in the discussion.

I resent the implication that I'm taking on male privilege or straight privilege. I heard these things when I was first coming out. There's a voice in my head that says I ought to be happy with what I have. It seems like I'm not, though.
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Kylo

I was also surrounded by feminism but I've since begun to educate myself on what constitutes both male and female privilege in human society, in an attempt to find a much more objective appraisal of mens' and womens' place in the world.

The idea we have at the moment that being a man is somehow easier, somehow safer, somehow more rewarding, I've found to be something of a myth. I can see with my own eyes that being a man is different from being a woman and that women have many privileges as well, such the privilege of people being more concerned about a woman's safety and well-being than a man's, people not expecting you to do extremely physical and demanding work as a woman, being allowed to express your feelings and fears publicly as a woman without as much ridicule, being allowed to express gender fluidity with less social repercussions than a man, not being demanded that you potentially sacrifice your life should a war break out, now in the developed world having complete bodily autonomy when it comes to fertility and childbirth if you choose to, not being as severely punished in most cases should you commit the exact same crime as a man, being able to physically assault men with less social repercussions than if a man does the same to you, being less likely to be violently attacked by strangers (the statistics prove it) than a man, more than likely to be rescued from a burning building before a man is... And so on and so on. There are many many examples of how being a woman is potentially better or easier than being a man, depending on what the desirable criteria is.

Transmen themselves express their fears of what it means to be a male in society eloquently - am I going to be physically beat on more in a fight now? Am I more at risk on the streets? Am I going to have to be very careful around women & children now or else be thought of as a creepy weirdo? Am I going to be excluded from women's circles and become more lonely now? Will I have to compete with men to be respected now? Will my worth as a man be measured by what I do and how much money I make? etc.

Now that I am aware of this, I feel not that I am passing into some golden privileged domain, but that I am passing into a domain where I'm really going to have to watch my step because it is far less forgiving than the world was for me as a female. As such, I feel more ashamed of the many privileges I had before as a female than the ones I may gain as a male, because I did not have to do a thing to earn them as a female - I just had to exist. I feel quite ashamed of my ignorance during that time to be honest, because my female privilege was rather invisible to me at the time, and I had women telling me men are pigs while those same men were out at work all day so their spouses could smack talk them behind their backs in the nice houses that work afforded. So people who may point at and accuse you of seeking to gain some quasi-mythical superpower just by virtue of being male are only telling you - or only aware - of half the story.

It would certainly make more rational sense to remain being considered a female, if I wanted a less strenuous, less lonely, and safer life, I think. The condition of being trans isn't an issue of choice, though. It is what it is, and if it means greater hardship and responsibility as a man then there's nothing I can do about that. I will only feel ashamed of myself from now on if I do not face what it is that I have to do as a man in the way I feel I ought to. So the shame is gone, thanks to the extra information I learned over time about how it's not really men vs women, but that life is harder or easier for both sexes, but in different ways. Hateful people out there have sought to ignite some kind of war between men and women, and I really think some of them are setting us back, not moving us forward. Especially those who constantly claim that women are victims of everything, women are only ever acted upon and cannot act for themselves and not take responsibility for themselves and their choices. It can't ever be empowering to be a female and constantly hear that kind of nonsense.

There is indeed a lot of phallic symbolism in society, but equally there is a great deal of feminine symbolism and the power of female sexuality cannot be denied. Actually I would think the latter is more powerful. Although a man is supposed to have a penis according to society, he cannot get what he wants in life just by having a penis; he also has to prove himself worthy in other ways too. I do try to forget what the bodypart itself means or what its value is to an individual person, but then I ask myself how many people are going to potentially want me as a sexual partner without one? And are people going to value me less as a result if they find out about it? I fear almost certainly. Still, there's far more to human life than penises and being of sexual value to another person. The way my cards have been dealt and my castrated reality has meant that I was always going to have to find other ways in which to be of value and to value myself. I haven't really found it difficult to stop worrying for the future about the lack of penis, but that is mainly due to my low sex drive, and the fact I don't tend to think penis = "man". I know if it were higher, I might have much more serious issue with it.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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nameuser

I used to be so ashamed of my body - I knew there was something wrong with it, but I didn't understand what. My best friend growing up was a boy, and I always felt so...I don't know. He was lean where I was squishy, and that used to induce the body shame.

Our parents used to measure our heights together. We were the exact same height for the first few years of life, and it had always made me oddly proud. And then he outgrew me - I remember going home and crying about it. I knew I was upset because I wanted to be a boy, but being seven or eight years old, I didn't realize it was an option. (when I spoke to my mum about it, she told me that was how all girls felt growing up - I think she assumed I was reacting to my first glimpses of the patriarchy :P)

What stopped me feeling the overwhelming shame was accepting I was trans - realizing, "It's okay, you're a real boy, your feelings are valid, and this is why you can't look at yourself in the mirror."

Somehow, that was enough. That little bit of inner peace, and the knowledge that there's something I can do about it.

Shark week, though! That's when all the shame comes back - the self disgust, the hopeless pit of despair. I think it's partly hormonal. I have a few cis-female friends who experience similar feelings when their time comes.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 24, 2016, 08:47:55 AM
Hateful people out there have sought to ignite some kind of war between men and women, and I really think some of them are setting us back, not moving us forward.

I agree with this. And I think trans people, as people who've experienced life in multiple gender roles, are in a unique position to aid in dismantling the antiquated stereotypes and norms, and reminding the world that people are just people.

We're all human before we're anything. Gender should not be another means to divide people, to keep one group down and raise another. Or, as in the developed world today, to make everyone miserable to nobody's gain :P
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Contravene

I can relate to the PE horror stories. When I was in middle school I felt like a creep having to change in the girl's locker room and I also wasn't comfortable with changing in front of the girls. I would always change in the bathroom even though we weren't allowed to. Something even worse was that my school also had swimming classes so we had to get totally naked to put on our swim suits. I was always late to swim class because I would wait until all the girls were done and went to the pool then hurry up and change when I was alone. I think my gym teacher knew what was up though because she was very understanding with me and I never got in trouble for being late or changing in the bathroom.
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AlexW

I put up such a stink about having to change with the girls that I got to use the "away" teams changing rooms, across two different schools. I hated showering with the girls, it felt so awkward and creepy.
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Kylo

Quote from: nameuser on April 24, 2016, 01:11:00 PMOr, as in the developed world today, to make everyone miserable to nobody's gain :P

Yes indeed.

That's why when I think of what I'm ashamed of personally, I don't really like to blame someone else or society like we're generally encouraged to do as that achieves nothing for me, and besides seems to have just resulted in an orgy of finger pointing and blaming out there lately.

I get up and do something I can be proud of, offsetting the shame, or just directly doing something about the shame itself. In this case, if I was ashamed at what people thought I could achieve as a woman, I threw myself into academia and to date have 2 and a half degrees to my name (soon to be 3), and found that no, in my country there really is no gender barrier if you are willing to put in the work or go where you must go to get the qualification. If I am ashamed of my body? I will find out how I can do what needs doing to it in order to feel better about it and am in the process at the moment; I've since come to understand that it is not society's ill will toward women that results in my feelings - society has demonstrably rather less ill will toward women physically than it does to men, after all, but it does have difficulty when it meets a female body with a 'male mindset'. It does not really know how to deal with such a thing. I discovered my problems are due to biological/mental incongruity, rather than social constructs, and that society isn't going to change for me; I must change for me. Shame has to me always been a catalyst to galvanize me to do something about a situation, better myself, take action etc. And when you do that, you can take care of the shame easier, too.

I don't think shame should be something we use to aim to lower society's standards so nobody is upset anymore. Prove them wrong. Be awesome in something, despite what they say about you. Then you'll have nothing to be ashamed about.

On that note, one of my heroes is Jesse Owens. Here was a black man who stood in front of Hitler and thousands at the 1936 Olympics, many of whom no doubt believed that his skin color and his race meant he would wouldn't win anything because they believed blacks inferior, and under those conditions and in fair competition, Owens walked away with four gold medals. I mean what can you say? That's just a delicious moment for anyone who's ever been told they are inferior because ______. It took work and effort, of course; but almost everyone can succeed at something if they really try, including holding your head high as a trans person and just going about your business like you always would. That's my preferred way of dealing with feelings of shame or inferiority, because it gives double wins - haters get told, and you unlock an achievement. Literally.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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WorkingOnThomas

I would do anything to avoid using the girl's locker room, up to and including changing in the bathroom, skipping, and (on several occasions) getting injured. I did not (and still do not) want other people to see me without clothing. I don't even want to see myself without clothing. My body disgusts me. I admire people who manage to find some way to accept themselves, but I'm not there yet.
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Wild-Eyed

I'm no longer at school, thanks be to God, but I suffer intense dysphoria when it comes to seeing my body. I struggle to change my clothes or wash, the result being that I - frankly - stink, serving to make me all the more self-conscious. I wish I could shower blindfolded.
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Matti

Quote from: WorkingOnThomas on April 25, 2016, 02:28:29 PM
I would do anything to avoid using the girl's locker room, up to and including changing in the bathroom, skipping, and (on several occasions) getting injured. I did not (and still do not) want other people to see me without clothing. I don't even want to see myself without clothing. My body disgusts me. I admire people who manage to find some way to accept themselves, but I'm not there yet.

Almost 100% agree with that...Mirrors included in that entire...but one day maybe, right? =) Hope dies last.
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Mr.X

I totally recognize this. I refused to shower with the other girls after gym. I believe I always used the excuse of just not liking the gym showers or something. When we had swimming classes and had to change before and after this, I always made sure my swimming gear was already on under my clothing, so I didn't need to change before hand. Afterwards I kind of had to change out of it, and always used a towel to cover my entire body, so no one could see. This became even worse when I hit puberty before any of the other girls. I felt like a real freak with the things that developed that no one else had yet, and that I for sure didn't want!

I started to wear long pants during gym as well, and baggy shirts. Just to hide as much as possible of my body.

Funny things is, I remember a scene when I was around 14 years old. We were having gym, and I noticed how funnily girls were running. You know, they sway their arms around when they do. I was sitting on the bench with a group of girls, watching a game of some sort where both boys and girls attended and pointed this arm swinging out. It resulted in us discussing the differences between boys and girls, and me asking if any of them wouldn't prefer to be a boy because, well, babies, periods, being weaker, obviously looking funny when you run....Enough reasons, right! I thought they would all agree to prefer to be boys, like me. Boy, was i wrong...
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AnxietyDisord3r

Quote from: Mr.X on May 18, 2016, 04:57:57 AM
Enough reasons, right! I thought they would all agree to prefer to be boys, like me. Boy, was i wrong...

On the other hand, on that same topic, it was surprising to me at times how many cis women are ambivalent about large breasts and how many just hate periods, two things that caused me a ton of dysphoria. Many adult women have had hysterectomies and they're satisfied with what was done. Which is one reason I hate when governments say hysto = sex change. No. Anyway, I guess I had the perception as a trans man that everything I hated about my body cis women would embrace. Not quite that simple.

I guess it's similar to the way cis men aren't exactly jumping for joy over male pattern baldness or enhanced cardiovascular risk.
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DarkWolf_7

Sounds like me growing up. I always went to the showers in order to change and I hated how the girls would just stand there and change back in high school, luckily my middle school actually had changing areas but only the girls' lockers for some reason. It felt alienating, being the only one who did that for that gym class and I remember some girl complaining about people changing in the stalls. Body shame is pretty much how dysphoria showed up for me before I recognized what it was.

After for the penis thing, that feeling of shame will probably go away in time. I can totally relate to feeling shame for wanting things to be different about my body before realizing I was trans* but when I did and as time went on the shame feeling went away. It took from thinking I was making it up to knowing I can't control how my brain works.




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