Gender identity, sexual orientation are programmed into our brains before birth

[jossam]

http://m.nro.sagepub.com/content/16/5/550.abstract

We know how transphobes and homophobes love to ignore science and they only know 3rd grade biology. This article of neuropsychiatry could teach them a lot. We need to remember behavior is influenced by society and its rules too, but gender identity and sexual orientation are innate. They are programmed into fetal brains just like the risk of developing specific mental disorders like schizophrenia and sexual disorders like paraphilias.

I have issues with sex addiction too, which we know happens mostly to men (mostly, meaning it's mostly men who face certain issues related to sexuality, but women do too, they are just a minority compared to men). I wonder if that risk of developing sexual disorders was programmed into my brain too just like my gender identity was. I don't feel comfortable with sharing certain experiences with sex addiction publicly here, so I won't go into details. I just wanted to share the article + general experiences I have. I know society encourages men to be sexual and tends to shame women for having sexual thoughts, but I also think the male identity has an innate tendency to be sex obsessed and the innate risk of developing sexual disorders. It's not offensive, there is nothing wrong with being very sexual or with having sexual disorders. It's just a tendency that is more observed in men than in women.

[Deborah]

That's a good abstract you found.  I had this conversation with a co-worker (Cruz/Trump supporter) on Friday.  He kept whining about how our Judeo-Christian society had been degraded by LGBT, especially the T with the bathroom issue. 

I tried to interject some science as discussed in your article, but he didn't want to hear it.  He just kept droning on about how they are abnormal and since they know they are abnormal they should go away.

Most of those people are beyond reasoning with.


Sapere Aude

[Dee Marshall]

You can hardly argue with his opening premise. Transgender people are a minority and, by definition, a minority is not normal. (Of or near the majority)

[Deborah]

Yeah.  I also tried to explain identity but that was over his head.  In his mind it's simply homosexuals who want to dress up.

On a positive note, there was a time when I would have gotten really angry.  No more.  I guess it's a combination of HRT and knowing that his side has already lost the war and is just fighting a rear guard action now.


Sapere Aude

[jossam]

I get really irritated when people use the name of God and hide behind religion to discriminate against others. Anyone who uses religion to bash others is an extremist and has issues with themselves. If these extremists/bible literalists want to go back to living as they lived 3000 years ago then they can separate themselves from the rest of society and create their own communities. But they should leave everyone else out of it.

You can tell him there are believers in Judeo-Christian tradition who disagree with him and are extremely ashamed of being surrounded by ignorant literalists and hypocrites. I see the bible as ancient people's understanding and relationship with God, not to be taken literally because society evolves and we are not like we were 3000 years ago. If he wants to be literal he should go out stoning people. Society evolved, that same religion evolved too (see how Reform Judaism in the US made its own rules to protect trans and gay people in their communities). If he's a Christian he has no business talking about Leviticus or whatever he is referring to. I am an ex Christian, I came to hold different beliefs now but I know how they distort and cherry pick stuff. I know them very well.

But there is no point in arguing with people like that. It's a lost battle unless they change and are open to education. What is in his mind was openly debunked by serious, unbiased science and if he's too arrogant (or maybe scared) to educate himself then let him drown in his own sea of ignorance.

You say his side has lost the war. I really hope so. Unfortunately, I tend to be pessimistic about these things. Maybe because I live in a rural town somewhere in Europe where we don't even have equal marriage.

Maybe when I get hrt I will relax but the reason why I can't immediately start hrt is because of people like that around me. So it makes me angry.

[Deborah]

The thinking leaders know they have lost the war and have publicly said as much.  While they are so far not changing their beliefs they are rethinking how they interact with the larger society.  The future is in rapid change.


Sapere Aude

[SleepyJess]

I was hoping this would have been a new article since all the more ammunition helps when facing the "gender is a social construct" junk. I think most of us here can say introspectively that the more we attempt to deny or suppress gender the stronger it returns which shows it is biological reality. However this isn't enough so we have to trawl through trillions of papers and end up becoming amateur-neurobiologists in the process.

Also hi everyone, I haven't logged into this account since my introductory post. But all the annoying bathroom nonsense coming from the US stirred me to login.

[RobynD]

I knew i was attracted to both genders from my earliest understanding of what attraction was. I also felt feminine very early on in life.

Gender as a social construct is maybe not ultra-accurate, but i think it is in the sense that the expression of gender is socially constructed. The color pink was once a boy's color and within the last several decades it's mainly been associated with girls as an example. So when we see the expression of gender, we can see that indeed it is socially created. If i'd been born and lived naked on a deserted island with one other person, i would still feel feminine, i maybe would not have the social context in which to express it.

[Deborah]

Gender as a social construct is maybe not ultra-accurate, but i think it is in the sense that the expression of gender is socially constructed.

I agree.  The whole gender as a social construct has always sounded stupid to me and if taken to its logical conclusion invalidates the whole concept of trans as being an inborn condition.

Gender expression as a social construct is certainly true.  Maybe that's what everybody really means?  If so, we need to be precise in translating thoughts to words because if all of this is understood to be nothing more than "a social construct" then the anti-trans element is not wrong.





Sapere Aude

[diane 2606]

The real "social construct" is gender role. Rather than leaving each of us to our own devices, our families, friends, community, country, and whoever else forces each of us into a defined social role based on what's between our legs.

[Deborah]

Gender role could be seen as synonymous to gender expression.  They are at least very closely related.


Sapere Aude

[diane 2606]

Gender role could be seen as synonymous to gender expression.  They are at least very closely related.

Sorry, Deborah, I was modifying my post when you responded. I've added pertinent information.

To my thinking, GENDER ROLE represents the socially constructed expectation society places on each individual. IF you are born with a penis you will perform the socially constructed role society has decided is right for you. Those born with a vagina are burdened with a different set of expectations. Woe be to those of us who transgress.

GENDER EXPRESSION, on the other hand, is how we either comply with the social expectation placed on us at birth, or deviate from it. Role and expression are not the same thing.

[RobynD]

I could see how Gender Expectation (role) and Gender Expression could be seen as passive and active respectfully.

[Kylo]

How can sexual orientation be pre-programmed before birth when it's well known and documented by trans people experiencing HRT that hormones can and often do alter sexual orientation. The hormones you make and the amount of them you receive once your sex organs are activated are quite clearly playing a role in what a person's sexual orientation is or continues to be. And a lack of certain hormones can cause complete lack of sexual interest in anyone. Those sex hormones do not come into sufficient production to affect sexuality until much later in a person's life and can themselves be subject to feedback loops and environmental stimuli. A lot can happen between birth and puberty.

I know people really want to find a "gay gene" and the like to prove being gay is nobody's fault, or to believe that fetal development holds all the answers, but I'm more inclined to believe there is no orientation or sex drive without sex hormones; they are at least 50% of this puzzle.

[Deborah]

My orientation hasn't changed at all.  That I never acted on it was due to other factors but it is now as it has always been known to me.  Do other people's orientations really change or do the just become honest with themselves for the first time in their lives?  I don't think anyone can answer that definitively so the question remains open.

I will agree with you that high T makes sex drive a primal urge while lack of it allows the mind to assert control.


Sapere Aude

[Dee Marshall]

T.K.G.W. the way it seems to work is that orientation is preprogrammed along a continuum of "interested in like" to "interested in other". If you're near the ends of that spectrum you can flip-flop. Nearer the middle and with other inputs you may not. I think this is why late transitioners are less likely to change the gender they're attracted to. I've never trusted men, even when I seemed to be one, so I didn't change, but not changing could have all kinds of reasons.

[AnxietyDisord3r]

HRT didn't change my sexual orientation either. I have to let go of homoeroticism, but that isn't uncomfortable the way dysphoria is uncomfortable.

Keep in mind younger people often haven't figured their sexual orientation out, especially if they're bi.

However, I'm open to the possibility that some minority of people's sexual orientation changes on hormones. It seems like in many studies there is always the small minority of people who have X hard-to-believe neurological change on HRT. 

[lorble]

A lot of genes only become active due to certain environmental changes or changes in hormones. It could be possible that we have a gene or a set of genes that predispose us one way or another towards developing a certain sexuality, and in combination with hormonal and environmental stressors, a certain sexuality may take root. This would mean that why sexuality may not be set in stone from before birth, we are all born with predispositions.

[HughE]

One part of that abstract I don't like is the following:

Gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender), sexual orientation (heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality), pedophilia, sex differences in cognition, and the risks for neuropsychiatric disorders are programmed into our brains during early development.

It's conflating being trans with paedophilia, which is a classic tactic used by TERFs. I've not heard anywhere else of paedophilia being an inbuilt, instinctive behaviour driven by prenatal brain development. To me it seems far more likely to be a fetish (or perversion) resulting from life experiences at around the time puberty was taking place, that has led to that person becoming fixated on children for sexual gratification rather than being able to form normal emotional and sexual relationships with adults.

[jossam]

The article doesn't say being trans is like being a pedophile. It simply suggests there might be something before birth that can make someone attracted to children. It's like saying it's a sexual orientation.

T.K.G.W where did you get that info? It's much much more likely people feel comfortable and honest with themselves only after HRT so they start being more honest about their sexuality and might also experience more things.
I know for a fact I'd find it hard to have sex with someone before physical transition. I am bi and doing something sexual with a man when I am pre everything would make me extremely uncomfortable. I dont want to be seen as having cishet sex. Same with a woman...I dont want it to be considered lesbian sex. It disgusts me. Chances are many trans people only get comfortable with their sexuality after hormones or surgeries or both. As a consequence, they also tend to be more honest with themselves.
I am bi with a very strong preference for women, so I'm mostly straight. Being a trans guy pre everything prevented me to be honest with myself though, so it took a while for me to admit I soemtimes get attracted to men too. It's because I felt like I wasn't a "real man" or some other bs like that. Then I started figuring out I was letting social norms about sexuality and trans people stereotypes control me. So I started thinking "yes, trans people can be gay or bi too and it doesn't make them weird or fake". So I said ok I am bi and it doesn't make me less of a man.

I suspect the real reason is after self-acceptance you get more honest with yourself. Some people need hrt to start being completely honest with themselves, others like me realize it earlier.