Butch vs trans

[emerry]

I know the topic has been talked through a couple of times already before.

We all know that butches are women and trans men are men. Agreed.
We also all know that there is a feeling like a wo/man.

So suppose we have an individual who prefers to appear masculine in many ways, e.g. binds/gets top surgery, wears men's clothing, hides curves, cuts hair short, prefers to appear muscular and all that jazz.

There are trans men who stop on that and don't want to go further, and there are butch women who go that far.

If you are this sort of person and are lost on the "feel like" part at all, how to tell the difference between the two?

[Laura_7]

Its how you identify and how you would like your body to be. And how you would like to be perceived.

Supposed there is a spectrum from male to female.
Where do you lie on that spectrum, and does it change ? If so, how much ? Its all up to you...

-How would you like to be perceived ?

-would you like a bit more male body to be a bit more happy ?
What gives you joy ? You might try small changes to hair and clothing style.

-how do you identify ? And you do not have to feel male all the time.

Well in the end its up to you...
but you might feel it...

and it might be a process and change over time...


hugs

[suzifrommd]

If you are this sort of person and are lost on the "feel like" part at all, how to tell the difference between the two?

I asked my self two questions (of course I was going in the other direction, but the principle is similar).

How would I feel if I could never again be a man and do mannish things? (It would be strange but I could live with it.)
How would I feel if I could never again be female or do femaleish things? (Like a piece of me was cut off)

That's what told me I was female at the core.

I still don't feel like a woman, despite living full-time as one for two and a half years. The important thing is that this is the way I want to live. My gender doesn't matter, how I want to live does.

Does that help?

[carnuatus]

I think it really depends on the individual. For one person, something that makes them feel like or identify as a man might make someone else identify as a "butch" woman.

I am trying to be helpful but am likely failing. I personally do not identify as female unless my estrogen is high--and even then, it's easy to say I do not enjoy it at all.

I am somewhere between agender\ genderqueer and male. I just haven't figured out quite where yet.


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[JB_Girl]

I asked my self two questions (of course I was going in the other direction, but the principle is similar).

How would I feel if I could never again be a man and do mannish things? (It would be strange but I could live with it.)
How would I feel if I could never again be female or do femaleish things? (Like a piece of me was cut off)

That's what told me I was female at the core.

I still don't feel like a woman, despite living full-time as one for two and a half years. The important thing is that this is the way I want to live. My gender doesn't matter, how I want to live does.

Does that help?

Great Post!  It captures the essence of the feeling exactly. 
Thank You,

Ming

[WildSuburbia]

I'm sorry I was reading through this post, and can you please tell me what you mean by "wo/man"?


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[sparrow]

We all know that butches are women and trans men are men. Agreed.

I disagree.  There's a continuum.  I was assigned male at birth.  Sometimes I identify as a man.  I never identify as a woman.  But sometimes I identify as butch.  I usually act the part, and sometimes look the part, too.

I'm sorry I was reading through this post, and can you please tell me what you mean by "wo/man"?

This was shorthand for two sentences:
We also all know that there is a feeling like a woman.
We also all know that there is a feeling like a man.

[MichaelTolliverLives]

I know the topic has been talked through a couple of times already before.

We all know that butches are women and trans men are men. Agreed.
We also all know that there is a feeling like a wo/man.

So suppose we have an individual who prefers to appear masculine in many ways, e.g. binds/gets top surgery, wears men's clothing, hides curves, cuts hair short, prefers to appear muscular and all that jazz.

There are trans men who stop on that and don't want to go further, and there are butch women who go that far.

If you are this sort of person and are lost on the "feel like" part at all, how to tell the difference between the two?

If you read butches talking, both nowadays and in the past, the distinction isn't always that clearcut or simple. I read Persistence: All Ways Butch and Femme, and was so surprised by how much overlap there was. There are butches who take hormones, for example. And I'd expect that there are lots of butches who will be happier as trans men, just as there are trans men who discover they were happier as butches - everyone's exploring.

For me, "what do I innately feel like inside, in my core and soul" was a really useless question. No one can ever know What It Objectively Feels Like To Be A Woman, because we can never live someone else's experience. I found it a much better question to ask "what changes would I like to make", and try not to fuss about what box I'm in (that can be especially hard to do in the LGBT community where knowing whether you're welcome in women's groups, say, is important)

Another thing one could do is collect a bunch of people, stories and photos together - of cis men, trans men, and butch women - look through them all, and see which group most pings your "that's me!" feeling.

tl;dr I don't think there is one easy answer to that question. If you're asking about yourself, then don't think about words and try and focus on changes you would like instead.

[emerry]

Thank you all for replies

Its how you identify and how you would like your body to be. And how you would like to be perceived.

Too difficult question. I want the perception of my self to be real and reasonably accurate. 

Supposed there is a spectrum from male to female.
Where do you lie on that spectrum, and does it change ? If so, how much ?

*shrug*

-would you like a bit more male body to be a bit more happy ?

A bit no, a fully functional one yes. But this is, I think, because I alredy have an athlethic and tall body, and and am reasonably a non-lady socially. In the past I used to excersice to make my body like that.

[qoute]
What gives you joy ? You might try small changes to hair and clothing style.
[/quote]
In terms of gender I don't know, and I don't know what kind of style changes I could make, although I like the approach

Well in the end its up to you...
but you might feel it...

and it might be a process and change over time...


hugs

And, it's good to hear it might change over time... *sigh of relief*

I asked my self two questions (of course I was going in the other direction, but the principle is similar).

How would I feel if I could never again be a man and do mannish things? (It would be strange but I could live with it.)
How would I feel if I could never again be female or do femaleish things? (Like a piece of me was cut off)

Hm, this is tricky, because I would not miss either being man or a woman, and feminine things too, but "mannish" things is something I tried to give up and t didn't do me any good. So, it counts as "like a piece of me was cut out". With feminine things, I sorta gave up on mmost of them, but I don't feel the lack. I could never again wear a dress or female jewelry  and not be bothered in the slightest. But if someone took away the jeans and t-shirt uniform from my closet...   

That's what told me I was female at the core.

I still don't feel like a woman, despite living full-time as one for two and a half years. The important thing is that this is the way I want to live. My gender doesn't matter, how I want to live does.

Does that help?

Hm, then, I think I don't feel like either gender. I definitely don't feel like a woman, but live a one, although I'm not doing it the usual way. It also looks like I don't feel like a man either, but somewhat masculine. And I think, for now, how I live fits me.

So, yes, it helps, thank you 

[emerry]

This was shorthand for two sentences:
We also all know that there is a feeling like a woman.
We also all know that there is a feeling like a man.

Yep.

I disagree.  There's a continuum.  I was assigned male at birth.  Sometimes I identify as a man.  I never identify as a woman.  But sometimes I identify as butch.  I usually act the part, and sometimes look the part, too.

Okey, so one more person who does not fit the model of butch vs man. Good to hear it

If you read butches talking, both nowadays and in the past, the distinction isn't always that clearcut or simple. I read Persistence: All Ways Butch and Femme, and was so surprised by how much overlap there was. There are butches who take hormones, for example. And I'd expect that there are lots of butches who will be happier as trans men, just as there are trans men who discover they were happier as butches - everyone's exploring.

For me, "what do I innately feel like inside, in my core and soul" was a really useless question. No one can ever know What It Objectively Feels Like To Be A Woman, because we can never live someone else's experience. I found it a much better question to ask "what changes would I like to make", and try not to fuss about what box I'm in (that can be especially hard to do in the LGBT community where knowing whether you're welcome in women's groups, say, is important)

Another thing one could do is collect a bunch of people, stories and photos together - of cis men, trans men, and butch women - look through them all, and see which group most pings your "that's me!" feeling.

tl;dr I don't think there is one easy answer to that question. If you're asking about yourself, then don't think about words and try and focus on changes you would like instead.

Thank you for your post, it's very helpful. But I won't anwser to most of it directly, because I think I have already covered what I had to say in previous anwsers

As for comparing butch women, trans men and cis men... I don't know again. I somewhat cling with butches, but there are two very significant differences:
1. I am attracted to men (mostly), they are mostly lesbians. So, I don't belong to the L community.
2. Many of them have always been tomboys, and I didn't. I was a femme kid. (But not a girly-girl, although I liked to think that)

As for cis men, the experience is entirely dfferent, because they were raised as men, and I was raised as a woman. Even though upbringing turned out not to have effect at some point.

Trans men - there is also a significant difference - they transition and add T to their blood, want to be adressed as "he" and "sir", and I don't. I mean, I don't care for words either way. But I have a weakness for "sir" It just sounds like a suit looks (awsomeness  ).

[emerry]

Update: Believe it or not, but I accidentally outed myself as a trans man, not even intending to do it. I must have said something that doesn't sound too cis or too much like a woman, or done something like that. A lot of people plain treat and see me as a man, with all the pronoun and bathroom business, and... I'm okey with it, I'm even more than okey, I like it more than being seen as a woman, I can't even say how great that is. Even though there are some problems associated with it. So in the end I'm simply a trans man, I guess, just not a too standard one. But I still identify as non-binary, because my story isn't too binary and my life isn't too binary.

[KerryJK]

I asked my self two questions (of course I was going in the other direction, but the principle is similar).

How would I feel if I could never again be a man and do mannish things? (It would be strange but I could live with it.)
How would I feel if I could never again be female or do femaleish things? (Like a piece of me was cut off)

That's what told me I was female at the core.

In both cases I would:

a) Want to know who was dictating the terms of this arrangement, and:
b) Rebel on principle.

Draw your own conclusions on where that leaves me gender-wise.

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[sigsi]

I was wondering the same thing a few years back. I never felt "butch" but I didn't know if I was "trans".
Similarly to the questions suzifrommd came up with, I had to ask myself which pronouns and perceived presentation bothered me more.

With my previous job, I saw lots of customers everyday. It was about a 50% chance of whether I was perceived as a male or a female when people first spoke to me. Being born female bodied, at first I was happy to not be read as a female when I was referenced as a "male". And to an extent, it still does make me happy to be perceived as male. To me, it means that I am getting further away from my expected femininity and someone I've grown to hate. Each time I was called a "miss" or a "mam" at my job, I was a annoyed. After a good bit "sir's" and "gentleman's" though, I was becoming annoyed at being read as a male too.

There are parts of myself that feel both feminine and masculine, but at the same time don't "feel like" anything but just "I exist and this is how I feel". At the moment, I am comfortable presenting as androgynously masculine and binding with a neutrois/agender identity. I desire top surgery in the future, but am not sure about hormones yet.

To answer my own question, both being a female and a male bothered me, but being a mix of both and neither at the same time felt like "me".