Trying to discuss Trans issues on the internet

[sarahjayn77]

So, I've never until recently dared to voice my opinion or share things I'd learned with people on the internet, for fear my family would find out I was talking about trans stuff (I haven't come out to them). But lately, when I read things people post in some of the comments of youtube videos or in forums or news articles about trans issues, I find myself feeling like their anti-trans comments are pointed at me.

So I try to politely and intelligently respond, to counter some of the myths they believe about trans people.

The first thing people have almost always been doing is pointing out that Psychiatrist Dr Paul McHugh has 'proven' that trans people are all delusional and mentally ill.

So I've read some of the doctor's comments, and then I've read some of the responses others have had to debunk him.

However, if I refer people to read any of the articles, videos, etc, that show a different point of view on Dr Paul McHugh's beliefs, I have these responses from people:

"You're just making that up! You're slandering a good man's name. You should be ashamed of yourself. You aren't a psychiatrist - he is the expert!"

or

"Oh, I get it now. You're a trans activist, aren't you! You'd say anything at all!"

So, people either ignore all the articles I show them, and just label me a liar, because there's "no way someone as famous and respected as McHugh could be wrong", or people just call me an activist and ignore me. In fact, any time I say anything even remotely supportive of trans people, they just call me an activist and tell me that my opinion, therefore, doesn't matter, because I am so 'obviously biased'.

I find it interesting that people who post anti-trans stuff all over the internet are not thinking of themselves as activists, and think that their opinion matters more than mine because of my 'obvious bias'...

I'm not sure how to respond to people, to explain to them that the 'so gay that they dress up as a woman simply to trick men into having sex with them' stereotype is not what most trans people are like at all...

And when I told one person that I wasn't gay, the response was, "You're just claiming that to make yourself sound more reasonable!"

Does anyone have some tips for how to talk to people about trans issues? Or should I just give up and let people say what they want without responding?

[Semira]

When it comes to the majority of message-boards/forums/comment sections on websites, I find that they are overrun with either disgusting hate-filled individuals or extremely ignorant people who just regurgitate whatever nonsense they heard that already matches their narrow point of view.

If you choose to engage in a discussion with someone, my only advice is to first be sure that you are discussing with someone who is actually open to listening to what you have to say. In that case you simply need to speak from the heart and/or point to any facts you have available. Good people will listen to what you have to say. They might not agree but they will consider it. If someone is spouting nonsense or just being a troll, don't even bother. Just ignore them because nothing you say will have any impact.

[AnonyMs]

Does anyone have some tips for how to talk to people about trans issues? Or should I just give up and let people say what they want without responding?

I wouldn't bother. I have no tolerance for fools and its so helpful of them to identify themselves; I can make sure I've nothing to do with them again.

I'm also not charitable enough to try help others by educating these people. There's an endless supply and I've got better things to do. Sorry.

[Ms Grace]

No argument was ever won on the internet. You'll be wasting your time and energy trying to educate or change the mind of those people.

[AnonyMs]

No argument was ever won on the internet. You'll be wasting your time and energy trying to educate or change the mind of those people.

Duty Calls
https://xkcd.com/386/

[sarahjayn77]

Duty Calls
https://xkcd.com/386/

That's hilarious!

Thanks for the comments guys. I think I'll just try to ignore such people and get on with my life.

[sarah1972]

While it currently does seem to affect Transgender topics due to most people simply being uninformed or ignorant it is unfortunately a very common issue in any kind of commenting on the Internet.
I have seen similar issues on IT related news sites and even general news sites. Completely different topics - same ignorant commenting style. Take as an example the discussion between Apple and Android phone users.

Commenting functionality on the Internet is actually changing: there are sites who have disabled any kind of commenting and there are sites allowing or disallowing comments an a selective basis. One Example being the German news magazine "Der Spiegel" where they clearly state for certain articles that they would not allow comments due to the nature of the covered topic.

It does go further - I am even seeing such issues at work (pure technical issues, not in any way Transgender related) in email chains. Interesting enough, the same people never understanding certain issues at work are also posting ignorant comments on Facebook...

I have caught myself wanting to comment in such cases. Mostly I managed to stop myself (except at work where some of the false statements could have bad outcomes for customers).

In most cases I have given up reading comments altogether since they would just ruin my day. In some cases I read them but I am trying to prepare for what I will read - and I still get surprised by the outright hate I see.

The one last remark: ignorance is also something with a perspective. Unfortunately the number of people with an open enough mind to at least listen seems to b shrinking.

[Peep]

If it upsets you, i would say stop - but i do sometimes comment because although the trolls won't listen, there might be people on the fence who aren't commenting but that will be interested in what you have to say. Or other trans people who feel like the only one and who are afraid to speak up for themselves. I know I feel better when i see a hater being challenged, even if they're not being swayed. But I don't engage in arguments - i tend to leave one comment and then close the window...

[KathyLauren]

"Never argue with idiots.  They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience."
- variously attributed

I make a point never to read the comments section of news sites.  Any time I give in and break this rule, it only reinforces the wisdom of the rule.

[IdontEven]

I love that quote, KathyLauren. I most commonly see it attributed to Twain, and it does seem like his style to me, but who knows.

I do tend to read the hateful and ignorant comments, because I like to understand where their arguments are coming from and see if they have any validity. Know thy enemy. I will admit it's screwed me up a few times, and people are always like "why do you read that crap when it just upsets you", but eh...

When it comes to debating things I generally try to avoid engaging the willfully-ignorant unless the misinformation they're spreading is out of the ordinary in some way; whether it's how far the message is likely to spread (youtube comments don't tend to influence much public opinion), or how susceptible the audience is to that misinformation, or something else that makes it particularly dangerous or novel in some way.

I'll engage the ignorant-by-misfortune all day long, though while I tend to enjoy it for the most part I tend to not be the best advocate, as I'm usually too lazy to do the "research". I'll mention some study I've briefly read about, but generally don't go as far as linking it or even having read anything more than the abstract, stuff like that. My posts already get too long too fast, I don't need to be submitting academic essay level rebuttals on the Internet's.

For most subjects it's pretty easy to back the ignorant into a logical corner where their refusal to accept reality becomes blatantly obvious, and you can then write-off their opinions guilt-free. I tend to have problems with the trans subject though, possibly somewhat due to internalized transphobia, but also because trans stuff seems to be rather unique, unfortunately, in the sense that it's subjective and not something that can be proven scientifically (unless I'm totally missing something).

In fact, it reminds me a lot of religion or religious experiences, as gross as that is. Other people have to take it on faith, and the only real evidence we have regarding our own trans-ness is a deeply held belief or feeling.

Not sure where I'm going with this. Avoiding the actual paper I'm supposed to be writing I guess :p

[stephaniec]

try telling someone born into hatred they aren't suppose to hate. I would of loved to be able when I was a child to tell the kids that abused me that it is wrong , how far do you think I'd get

[Debbie]

I try to keep out of arguments on the net with hateful, ignorant people, but sometimes I just can't restrain myself. For example, today, I responded to some tweet by a moron who said something along the lines that trans people and pedophiles are in cahoots over this stupid bathroom issue in the USA. This clown then adds me to some ridiculous Twitter list he's compiling of transgender people who are putting their feelings over the safety of children. I've told him to remove me at once from his stupid list or else I'll report him. The halfwit even has the gall to say that I have a "mental defect", as if his obsessive hate of trans people doesn't truly represent a mental defect.

[Tessa James]

Conflict and adversity from anonymous trolls who get off on getting a rise out of others or trashing already marginalized minorities?  Like many here I would guess we change very few righteous and ideologically minded souls and only amuse the pathologically driven.  Creating more heat than light is not worth our precious time really, IMO.

[Loved_PrincessMPLS]

I grew so sick and tired of seeing the anti-trans trolls out in force on social media that I had to delete nearly all social media apps from my devices. Moreover, I stopped responding and trying to "educate" those who won't listen; it's pointless.

I think what helped me get over trying to correct everyone's opinion and constantly arguing with strangers was realizing that I simply don't care what some random person on the Internet thinks and I'll never change their opinion while allowing my blood to boil.

So now I sit back and watch the hatred and uneducated mess flow like a gentle stream that doesn't affect me.

[JMJW]

Ah the old "You identify as a woman? Then I identify as an attack helicopter!" What's the difference?

Me - Seriousness.

[Kelly_1979]

My thoughts exactly. I suppose bigots are everywhere. Today I read on a local news site that the legislation to recognize the identity of trans people (without needing grs) is under way. Most of the comments where like "so if the local butcher says he's a woman, he'll be regarded as a woman" or "We should be ashamed we still tolerate them, we should have killed them" or "if he feels he's a tennis racket, he's one".
There were a couple of positive comments - mainly replying to these hateful people and anyway I felt there was no point to comment (besides I'm still "in the closet" concerning most people who know me).

[Peep]

Ah the old "You identify as a woman? Then I identify as an attack helicopter!" What's the difference?

Me - Seriousness.

That kind of comment annoys me too. Why are human women considered as ridiculous as imaginary creatures like unicorns, or compared to inanimate objects? it says more about the people that say those kinds of things than it does about us...

[Devlyn]

That kind of comment annoys me too. Why are human women considered as ridiculous as imaginary creatures like unicorns, or compared to inanimate objects? it says more about the people that say those kinds of things than it does about us...

You take back what you just said about unicorns or I'll punch you right in the nose! 

Hugs, Devlyn

[IdontEven]

Ah the old "You identify as a woman? Then I identify as an attack helicopter!" What's the difference?

Me - Seriousness.

I get the implication in this comparison, but personally I find this particular one highly amusing. Partly because I dig attack helicopters, and also because it's just so not how the world works. It's like if a kid were to say "I want to be a firetruck when I grow up!". It's coming from a place of ignorance, but it's still funny :p

[Eva Marie]

It seems to me that most of these hateful comments are posted by A) people that resist science - they are extremely ignorant and are proud of it, or B) people that have some strongly held belief that precludes any understanding of us, or C) people that derive pleasure from hurting other people, or D) gullible people who fear us or have something to gain from repressing us.

The possibility of changing the opinions of the 4 groups above is slim and none.

I do respond occasionally when I see complete garbage posted as fact, but I mostly just stand clear of the hate these days.