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Giving up

Started by sparrow, June 24, 2016, 01:38:08 AM

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sparrow

I'm tempted to say something like "ten years, down the drain."  But... this has been a learning experience.  The kind I need like another hole in my head.

When I proposed to my wife, the decision was significantly influenced by a fight that we had recently had.  It was a difficult conversation, but we both put the work in, and I was impressed by her commitment to the relationship.  With that attitude, we're sure to overcome any obstacle.  Right?  Only if we both continue to come to the table, it seems.

I didn't really notice at first.  When she complained about a behavior of mine, for the most part, I did my best to listen attentively and avoid the problem in the future.  Occasionally, we'd get stuck on something where I felt that her expectations were unreasonable (making demands in situations where mutual agreement was more appropriate, for example) and it would turn into a bigger fight, but we slowly worked through those.

If I complained about a behavior of hers, though... watch out.  I kept coming to the table, acting in good faith and trying to reach an accord.  She acted like I was attacking her.  I'd tell her that a behavior of hers was hurting me, and she'd go on the defensive and complain that I was attacking her, trying to punish her, trying to change who she is as a person.  But I wasn't really thinking about myself -- I had compassion for her, and my goal was harmony in the relationship.  So, I took her complaints to heart, and every time I had something to say, I aimed to avoid the pitfalls of the last fight.

Our biggest issue, by far, is space in conversation.  She's a chatterbox.  Lots of my friend are chatterboxes.  That isn't a problem.  Everybody else I know is able to parse body language, and give others a chance to speak.  She out-chatterboxes all of the other talkative people I know.  When we hang out in a group situation, she will have a conversation with the group -- she responds loudly and quickly to everything that everybody says, and she frequently rambles from topic to topic.  I've grown to recognize this as a form of social anxiety, and after about two hours she calms down enough for others to get a word in edgewise.  What my friends don't see is that she does the same thing to me in private.  But... over the years, I've made friends and started to get included in group events, and everybody wants to meet my wife... and after they do, I stop getting invited.  This has happened in nearly every social circle that I've joined.  My sole comfort in this is that I'm not the only one noticing.

Okay, so she's annoying and socially awkward.  I can handle that.  I'm annoying and socially awkward, too. But she hurts me with it.  She demands care and attention when she's upset, but, for example, after my dad died I found it impossible to talk about my feelings without getting interrupted at length and shut out of the "conversation."  I've spoken to her about this, dozens of times now.  And she's proud of this part of her character.  It's a crucial part of her.

When I came out to her as transgender, it was huge.  She'd flip her lid almost every time I cross-dressed; no great surprised, she'd spoken negatively about cross-dressers and (even before I was even interested) insisted that I must never cross-dress.  But, that's all water under the bridge now.  I'm out, I'm myself, she's good about my name and pronouns.  She's one-in-a-million... she's actually sticking it out despite it all.  She even thinks I'm pretty, and says that she likes that about me.

But... we never got over our communication issues.  I feel like I've grown a lot over the course of our relationship.  She's pointed out my faults, and for the most part, I've worked on them.  For sure, everything has taken work and I don't claim to have achieved perfection on any issue; most issues have required several incidents before I really learn the lesson.  Ever so slowly, I learn.  She hasn't.  She continues to hurt me on a regular basis, and if I complain about anything, she frequently acts like it's the end of the world, makes the conversation all about her, and we end up going around in tiny little circles.

We've been seeing a couples counselor.  The counselor opened my eyes to the notion that we might just be wrong for each other -- she truly is the way that she is, and she needs to be that way.  I spent a couple of weeks in a funk, because it seemed like the end was in sight.  At the end of that, I stayed a night with a friend, who gave me a bit of a kick in the pants; "If you're still in the relationship, be in the relationship and stop thinking about its end!"  We went in to our counseling session the next day, and I brought a renewed sense of commitment.  I can put the work in, we can make it work out!

But it takes two.  In our latest counseling session, she flew off the handle again.  Don't people usually bring their best behavior?  I think she was.  We've been seeing this counselor weekly for the last three months.  She's not making progress.  She's consumed by fear and uncertainty and anxiety and dread, she feels like she's being punished and judged, and she's only willing to talk about those things, and not about the pain that she causes me.  There's a time and place for each of us to talk about our feelings, and I certainly give her space for hers... but there's still no space for me.

Last night, our counselor remarked that it sounded like she'd given up on me.  That was in a response to a statement that she has been making for nearly ten years now.  I don't want to give up.  But this relationship is doing us both more harm than good.  I've really given it my best shot.  I feel like we might finally be to the point where she's ready to put the work in... but I've felt like that so many times, I can only conclude that I'm deluding myself.

How many straight-identified women would put up with their husband going through transition?  How can I even consider leaving?  But apparently, the relationship was dead in the water, long before I even knew I was transgender.
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Veronica J

Well, it seems to me she doesnt understand what comprise really means. Its not giving something up for good, but postponing it or approaching ot differently at a later time. Thia is a tough one to be sure, all i can answer is do whats right for you. Is she driving u too disper (sp?), unwilling to see the hurt and to stop slinging stones and hurt? I had to give up on my relatioship with my wife of 16years for similar reasons and i am calmer and more at peace with myself. Honestly if i experianced that i would of left 3 or 4 years ago. Do whats right for you,dont let anyone drive u into the ground.

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autumn08

Both of you expect more from the marriage, but neither of you can find a mutually desired compromise. You want more space to express your feelings, and either your wife wants to maintain her space, or there is also another reason why she wants to give up on you (I can't make out which one it is).

I don't know if a better compromise for both of you exists, but could you describe, in detail, what you and your wife want from each other? Maybe there are things of lesser value both of you can sacrifice, for things of greater value, which will help your marriage reach the finish line.
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kylie1

Sparrow,
I was married to your wife.  Year after year I could do less and less right.  If I whistled it bothered her, chew gum, the way I talked, the way I walked, the things I'd say, the way I cleaned, the way I drank water, the way I chewed my food, the clothes I wore etc. Eventually my self esteem flatlined until ultimately I found out she was having an affair with my best friend.  After reflecting and realizing that she was a narcissist, borderline sociopath, and at the least a pathological liar, I divorced her.  Now a few years down the road, my life is much better, I'm myself again, I don't feel sick when I pull up to the house.  The facts are, you are the right person for someone, maybe just not her.  The easiest person to be is you, not the person that has been leveraged into change to avoid mistreatment.  Your life is the only one you have
Xx
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sparrow

Quote from: VeronicaMJ on June 24, 2016, 02:11:29 AM
Honestly if i experianced that i would of left 3 or 4 years ago. Do whats right for you,dont let anyone drive u into the ground.

Yeah, it was about 4 years ago when I started taking data on out how broken things were; though I wouldn't come to understand what was going on until about a year ago.  Before my dad got cancer, I didn't have a care in the world, and I was happy to play full-time therapist to my wife's depression and anxiety.  When he died, 4 years ago, I fell into a pit of despair.  She backed off, got surly, and frequently complained that other people weren't validating her grief (because each individual was focused on their own grief and not checking to see whose grief was biggest; she clearly thought that she deserved a ticker tape for best grief of the year).  After years of pouring love and care and work into our relationship, that was my reward -- a partner whose mouth was open every time I needed an ear... and worse, a partner who got mad at me for being upset, because that made her feel like I didn't think her grief was real.
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kylie1

Typically people like that are unappeasable.  You could bring them an icecream and instead of enjoying it they say they would rather have chocolate.  Then when you bring chocolate, they ask why you didn't get it dipped in chocolate.  When you bring them chocolate dipped in chocolate they say they're in the mood for vanilla dipped in cherry.  Then when they get their vanilla dipped in cherry, they don't like that either.  People that have the max drama, Max sorrow, and maximum greif will never change.  The world is according to them, their perspective only.  The question is.. Can you tolerate that or, can you survive that?  Will you thrive in that?
Xx
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Tessa James

I don't know your wife but i do trust that you have been consistent in your efforts to work things out and that you care about her.

I know my wife and I have given up on each other too but not yet for the long term.  There is something about loving, romance and a time tested depth that keeps us vulnerable and coming back for more.

Your paragraph:
Quote from: sparrow on June 24, 2016, 01:38:08 AM

But... we never got over our communication issues.  I feel like I've grown a lot over the course of our relationship.  She's pointed out my faults, and for the most part, I've worked on them.  For sure, everything has taken work and I don't claim to have achieved perfection on any issue; most issues have required several incidents before I really learn the lesson.  Ever so slowly, I learn.  She hasn't.  She continues to hurt me on a regular basis, and if I complain about anything, she frequently acts like it's the end of the world, makes the conversation all about her, and we end up going around in tiny little circles.

hit me square in the solar plexus.  Yes, we learn to take care of ourselves and I learned that we cannot ultimately be responsible for how someone feels or interprets our shared life.  We can be calm, avoid being defensive and focus on solutions but it take two and a harmony we may not feel often enough. 

Such weighty matters of the heart. When is enough enough?  Thanks for sharing.
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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sparrow

Quote from: Tessa James on June 25, 2016, 01:48:14 AM
I know my wife and I have given up on each other too but not yet for the long term.  There is something about loving, romance and a time tested depth that keeps us vulnerable and coming back for more.

I haven't given up for good.  I'm not walking out yet.  I should be clear; she didn't say that she's giving up -- that was our counselor's characterization of her attitude.  Like you, I'm vulnerable, she's my best friend and closest companion, I've put nearly a decade of work into this relationship, and quite frankly, all the nuts and bolts of disentangling two lives after ten years is daunting -- moving, dividing stuff... coming out to friends and co-workers as a divorcee... ugh.  I love her.  She's been on her best behavior since our last counseling appointment.  I see glimmers of hope, but thinking back... all that I've seen over the years have been glimmers.  I'm finding it impossible to force myself to be hopeful.  Go figure.

I don't think that a separation will make the relationship work, but I think that I need time away from her.  I want to leave the door open to resume the relationship, but I don't really see that working out.  I still don't know what to do.  How long to keep trying.  If I'm even still trying, or just going through the motions.
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Tessa James

Yes, we are in a similar boat with 43 years together.  It would take the rest of our lives just to clean out the accumulation in our barn. 

So what animates our decisions and weighs on our thoughts?  We have allowed each other significant space and separate time.  i think that does help.  And yes, glimmers of hope are what I feel too.  I like to think about warm embers and a fire gone cold that could be rekindled with some huff and puff effort.  But then bluster and bravado are full of that too ;) ;D

Good luck to us and anyone struggling to keep a meaningful relationship fully alive with love.
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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Kylo

That's the thing. It's belief I think, that makes a relationship good. The actual belief you can make it work, that it will get better, that you can get through things is the lifeblood. But by the same token it can cause you to cling to something long after it is dead because you still believe in it.

I've come to understand that long-term serious relationships are much more complex and a mixed bag than I would have tolerated the thought of before I got into one. The pain for one thing, that a person who loves you can still cause you. The amount of forgiveness you can give someone who hurts you.

But I know there is a limit, break point to any one relationship. It can be hit real suddenly, and when you hit it, you know that's it. You just know that person is not and never will be right for you no matter how much you want it. And it is very freeing. But if you haven't hit that point, there's hope, and hope that you might not ever hit it, etc. Time tends to tell.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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sparrow

I've mentally taken a step back.  I'm not asking for anything from the relationship at this point.  But, I can't act yet... and by extension, I have to play along.  I feel a little... third-party about the thing.  Like I'm watching through a window.  But, of course, I experience it first-hand too.

Any kind of attention or affection I receive is nice, and I participate even when I don't feel it.  I'm not initiating things right now.  Maybe... this is a healthy kind of distance?  I feel less stressed about the relationship.  I'm at peace with this limbo of not having reached a decision.  And actually enjoying the relationship in a way that I haven't for years.  Our counselor told us to genuinely thank each other for something every day.  It hasn't been hard to find something.

"One step back, two steps forward?"  I don't get it.
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Eva Marie

Quote from: sparrow on June 28, 2016, 04:20:48 AM
I've mentally taken a step back.  I'm not asking for anything from the relationship at this point...... Maybe... this is a healthy kind of distance?  I feel less stressed about the relationship.  I'm at peace with this limbo of not having reached a decision.  And actually enjoying the relationship in a way that I haven't for years.

Perhaps you are simply too close to the trees to be able to get a perspective on the whole forest.

What i'm seeing in your comments is that by putting a bit of distance between her and yourself - by stepping back - you seem to have ratcheted down your stress level considerably.

A relationship is a two way street - in a healthy relationship there is both a give and a take. In an unhealthy relationship one partner does all of the giving and the other partner does all of the taking. This is simply unsustainable  - the power sharing dynamic is wrong and that breeds resentment with the partner doing the giving - the giving partner is not getting their own needs met. I sense a lot of resentment in your words.

We don't have enough information to be able to speculate on why she is as she is - perhaps it is narcissism or BPD or any number of other problems, none of which you can fix - the question for you is whether how she behaves is something that you are able to accept and live with. Only you can answer that question, but I kind of think you already have an idea of where the relationship is headed.
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sparrow

Well, she's noticed.  Actually, she noticed a few days ago.  In a sign of remarkable progress, she explained that she noticed on Friday, which is when I made this post... and she panicked.  She realized that she was panicking, and took her time to figure out if she was seeing something real, how to think about it, etc... and when she told me about the panic, it was with a calm demeanor.  In short, she didn't repeat the well-worn pattern of flipping out and dumping a hot steaming pile of panicked accusations on me.

It was a sad and high-stakes conversation, and we navigated it without either of us getting unduly upset.  She'd noticed that I've been physically distant; neither initiating nor escalating physical intimacy.  I wasn't really prepared to talk about this yet... but okay, let's do this... I explained to her the rationale behind mentally taking a step back.  That it was giving me some much-needed perspective.

At the end of our conversation, she brought up a suggestion that I'd made a handful of months ago -- that we plan to spend nights with friends occasionally.  On the two occasions where we've spent a night apart, it's been good for us.  We're gonna start doing that.  She hated the idea last time, but she's seeing that some distance is making us happier.

So... score one for us.  We had a tough conversation, and she avoided her most destructive pattern.  It really should fill me with hope.

On the other hand...

I've realized that for the last 10 years, I've been living with an emotionally manipulative and controlling partner.  The reason that I'm so withdrawn and so tired of trying is that I've started to identify as a victim of abuse, (and it only took my counselor 6 months to get me to admit it).  As I've taken a step back, I've finally started to let that sink in.  It's a hard place to be.  I've been looking for fault in myself... classic victim behavior.  I've been making excuses for her, putting my needs aside for her, being ashamed of my own mistreatment, capitulating to avoid rocking the boat, accepting her blame, walking on eggshells... and for so many years of accepting her blame, I still feel like it might all be in my head... despite validation from family, friends, and counselors that she's been mistreating me.  Ffffff... da....ng it.  Classic symptoms.  The heck do I do now.

I have very strong opinions about abuse.  I know the statistics on serial abusers... when they're violent -- less so here.  I know the pattern that we've been stuck in.  I'm worried that she's playing nice now, but that Mrs. Hyde will come back.  I'm afraid for my long-term safety.  We've never gotten this far.  She sees that she's hurting me.  It's not like I haven't been telling her that for years and years... but it really seems like she's seen the light and that she's putting effort into stopping.  I mean, she is definitely putting the effort in.  But... will she revert to her old behavior? :| What the heck do I do.  If it was physical abuse, I'd have been gone years ago... but it's hard to explain to people why her behavior even constitutes abuse.  Hard to continue to believe that myself... I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, just one last time... and I want to have ran away years ago.  But now... I just.  I mean.  She's making progress.  And it's not like deciding to quit today is going to have an iota of meaning.

But I have a lot of scars.  Those need healing, and the distance seems good for them.  For so many reasons, I hope that a less-than-ultimate distance is sufficient.

Quote from: Eva Marie on June 28, 2016, 10:07:29 AM
We don't have enough information to be able to speculate on why she is as she is ...

True, true.  In part, I don't have time to get into it.  It would end up filing a book.  In part... when I post to Susan's, I'm aware that it's a public space.  I try to talk about my business, and not my wife's business.  Some is both, and I exercise discretion.  But if I got into that, it would put me firmly into the "airing my wife's dirty laundry" camp, where I'm not comfortable.
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Tessa James

Having significant time apart and supporting personal growth for each other has worked to help us have a long term marriage.  Maximizing freedoms is not easy and it seems we, as a couple, are also too capable of manipulating each other for whatever secondary gain is at hand.

I work with our local woman's shelter, the Harbor, had extensive training and know domestic abuse comes in many shapes and sizes.  Congratulation to both of you for being able to have those "high stakes" conversations with the weight of shared baggage on board.
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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RobynD

Part of what drives relationships is the understanding of what the relationship is. It sounds silly, but hear me out. It is not what the world wants it to be, it is not a textbook definition, it is what you both want and drive toward as a goal for the relationship. To some marriages are:

Commitments that are spiritually rooted
Relationship for each person's benefits
Two friends just hanging out for life
Nucleus of a family that spans generations
Intellectual and emotional partnership
Convenient place for one or both parties
Economic partnership
A unified "brand" to present to the world and family, sort of part of human resume as it were.

The list is longer and a marriage can be a combination of more than one. But, my theory is that there is an overriding purpose for most participants in a marriage. That purpose governs to a big extent what happens when change, boredom or plain bad times come. Sometimes a couple does not really know what the other's purpose for being in the marriage is, either because they don't communicate about it, or because one or both are dishonest about it and feel compelled to answer with something that "sounds right". Differing purposes add another element of challenge to the relationship. Sometimes those purposes change too.

Many counselors make assumptions based on their education and experience, they are supposed to, but i think many do not really understand the couple's purpose for being together in the first place.

It sounds like you have made a great effort to communicate and meet her needs. When we love someone we do our best in those areas. I'm glad you are not giving up yet, because you may find something really interesting comes out of the effort you are putting in. It is certainly hard and i hope it goes better you.



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sparrow

She's past a week into a complete return to all the old behaviors.  I can't anymore.  She isn't.

I'm going to do this as lovingly as possible, hoping to separate with mutual grace and kindness.  Kind of a 3-way collaboration with my counselors aimed at diminishing the impact on her as much as possible, while firmly asserting a clean end.
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AnxietyDisord3r

I wondered with an experienced counselor would counsel a couple to split, but they have seen it all before. Sounds like your wife is in a rut with you. You have gotten into a pattern where you give and she takes and she isn't going to give that up. She wasn't there for you when your parent died and that's a biggie. I'm not so convinced she has a personality disorder. I think it's possible she could be a better partner with someone else. Other than you. Sometimes this sort of thing happens.

Verbal, emotional abuse is the most insidious. You aren't to blame for what happened. Meaning well and thinking well of others is what gets us into these situations and I wouldn't want to see you become cynical and bitter. Just know that if you're better apart than together ... well, that thought completes itself. It's going to be rough but there is light (and calm) at the end of the tunnel.
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sparrow

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on July 11, 2016, 06:26:39 AM
I wondered with an experienced counselor would counsel a couple to split, but they have seen it all before. Sounds like your wife is in a rut with you. You have gotten into a pattern where you give and she takes and she isn't going to give that up. She wasn't there for you when your parent died and that's a biggie. I'm not so convinced she has a personality disorder. I think it's possible she could be a better partner with someone else. Other than you. Sometimes this sort of thing happens.

Our couples counselor has not counseled us (or me) to split, but supports my decision and agrees with my characterization of her behavior.  My individual counselor has been telling me (not really telling, but...) to run away for a long time now.  I think that she could be a good partner to another person, too.  She's been a very good partner in some ways.  And with the work that we've been doing in counseling, she's been showing some personal growth -- I hope that growth continues, and I think that it's better than 50/50 that she'll land on her feet.  She's got some serious hang-ups about being a grown-up in all sorts of little ways (gee... an overarching tendency to avoid easily-solved problems... why wasn't that a warning sign?!).  We'll see how all that plays out.
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sparrow

Well, that's that.

Two weeks ago, we had our final couples counseling session.  I read her a letter that I had written that outlined the magnitude of what I was losing in her, my perspective of my role in the failure of our relationship, my decision-making process, and the reasons that accumulated into a decision.  I honored her by writing the letter in sections, and reading an outline of those sections before getting into the content.  She and I cried through the first part, and asked me to pause between a couple of sections (she appreciated the structured approach).

After that letter, my counselor suggested that this was the final time for us to air grievances about the relationship... that went terribly... when she complained about it going poorly, I agreed with her, and she took my agreement as an attack... but I managed to de-escalate by pointing the finger at our counselor and saying "No, what I'm saying here is that the counselor just gave us bum advice and we should stop doing this."  The counselor agreed.

I suggested that the biggest benefit to me in writing the letter was that it had allowed me the time to work through a lot of my grief about the relationship, and suggested that a better use of our time would be to share in that grief.  We spent most of the session sitting on the floor, hugging and crying our eyes out.  We talked a little about the nuts and bolts of the separation, and our final goodbye was sweet and tearful.

Since then, we haven't been in communication, except through a designated friend.  I'm doing much better.  A weight has been lifted from my shoulders, I'm not stressed out 2-6 hours a day, and life is good.  I've been on a few dates with people, and while that's been fun... it's also been healing, because those people are so different from my ex, and have values more similar to my own.  I've had misunderstandings with a person I've been on a few dates with, and they're complete non-events -- sometimes I'm wrong, sometimes they're wrong, and we can each accept our own faults and move on.  It's a tremendous relief to see how smoothly conflict can go if both partners are operating in good faith.

I'm taking a break from monogamy for the time being.  I need to live on my own and be my own person for a while.  But I also have certain needs... by being clear and transparent about non-monogamy, I'm able to have those needs met without taking anybody for granted.  I'm also able to make space for myself to recover from my past relationship, and generally have enough alone time to re-discover who I am.
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Tessa James

Wow Sparrow, you have made very significant efforts toward resolutions.  I applaud your insights and determination.  Monogamy is a cultural construct that didn't work for us and i respect your honesty in making those changes for yourself.

I was once accused of being a"cheater" and was happy to note my belief that term applies to those who are on the sly and not upfront about what is going on.  You have been through what sounds like an exhausting process of disclosure and intent.   I think you well deserve some good times and new horizons.  That cracked and demented "fun house" mirror we might encounter every day with an unsupportive partner is fuel enough to seek rediscovery on your terms.
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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