Do I Look, or Could I Pass as, Female? 6.0

[Rhonda Lynn]

just got a new shirt :3

You are looking really good, Rosey!

[Rhonda Lynn]

Hey!  If no one minds me getting really specific...could you tell me my most masculine and most feminine feature, please? 

Amanda, your eyes are your best feature, you have pretty hair, your chin is a nice shape and your eyebrows are fairly high. You also don't seem to have an adam's apple, yay you! Your nose is wide and might be the most masculine feature of your face. The heaviness of your eyebrows is also masculinizing. You could get them shaped at a salon for a modest amount of money and get a feminine arch.

[aaajjj55]

I...Jeez.  Ouch.  I have huge fears that I'll never be able to pass, so I kind of was hoping for, not yet, but you've got potential.  I haven't had that yet, and I'm beginning to suspect I never will.  I read this a week ago and it was enough to make me stop the hormones.  I guess I'm in limbo.  Damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I found this and the posting that precipitated it quite troubling, in particular as it underlined the fragility of many members of our community and the need for sensitivity when we interact with each other.

I think it's important that we keep 'passing' in perspective.  On this thread, we are asked to judge based on sometimes poorly taken photographs - I know they say that the camera doesn't lie but if it's too close to the subject then it can distort facial features.  Conversely, take a look at the following link to a flickr gallery of a makeover studio in London:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/boyswillbegirls/

The vast majority 'pass' on these pictures thanks to the exceptional talents of Cindy, the studio owner (who is TG herself) but few, if any, of them are undergoing transition or HRT.

A browse through YouTube yields further insights.  I can think of a number of TG YouTubers who photographically 'pass' but whose whole deportment, when revealed on video, is obviously male; equally I can think of examples who do not facially 'pass' but who exude feminity in the way they walk and their mannerisms (without being over the top).  Therefore, I think it's very dangerous to judge passability on photographs only and, personally, prefer 'blending in as a female' to 'facially look like a female' as the definition of 'passing'.

Sadly, the reality for the majority of us is that we need surgical assistance to counter the effects of testosterone but a glance through the 'before and after' threads on both this site and of the FFS clinics underline that the results can be spectacular, even for those whose 'before' photos would not have passed muster in this thread.  Additionally, putting skillful cosmetics to one side, the only way that those who are early in transition can truly pass at that stage is if they had feminine features to start with but, as we have seen, that doesn't have to be a prerequisite to ultimately fitting in as a female.

Ultimately, though, we do live in an increasingly tolerant society (although this varies by location and we still have some way to go to eradicate all prejudice) and I think we're all looking forward to the day that this thread becomes redundant because it no longer matters.

In the meantime, Karlie Ann, don't lose faith and continue on your journey - we're all rooting for you.

Amanda

[LizK]

I found this and the posting that precipitated it quite troubling, in particular as it underlined the fragility of many members of our community and the need for sensitivity when we interact with each other.

I think it's important that we keep 'passing' in perspective.  On this thread, we are asked to judge based on sometimes poorly taken photographs - I know they say that the camera doesn't lie but if it's too close to the subject then it can distort facial features.  Conversely, take a look at the following link to a flickr gallery of a makeover studio in London:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/boyswillbegirls/

The vast majority 'pass' on these pictures thanks to the exceptional talents of Cindy, the studio owner (who is TG herself) but few, if any, of them are undergoing transition or HRT.

A browse through YouTube yields further insights.  I can think of a number of TG YouTubers who photographically 'pass' but whose whole deportment, when revealed on video, is obviously male; equally I can think of examples who do not facially 'pass' but who exude feminity in the way they walk and their mannerisms (without being over the top).  Therefore, I think it's very dangerous to judge passability on photographs only and, personally, prefer 'blending in as a female' to 'facially look like a female' as the definition of 'passing'.

Sadly, the reality for the majority of us is that we need surgical assistance to counter the effects of testosterone but a glance through the 'before and after' threads on both this site and of the FFS clinics underline that the results can be spectacular, even for those whose 'before' photos would not have passed muster in this thread.  Additionally, putting skillful cosmetics to one side, the only way that those who are early in transition can truly pass at that stage is if they had feminine features to start with but, as we have seen, that doesn't have to be a prerequisite to ultimately fitting in as a female.

Ultimately, though, we do live in an increasingly tolerant society (although this varies by location and we still have some way to go to eradicate all prejudice) and I think we're all looking forward to the day that this thread becomes redundant because it no longer matters.

In the meantime, Karlie Ann, don't lose faith and continue on your journey - we're all rooting for you.

Amanda

I can remember posting in this thread early prior to starting transition...I did not get one response and it really rocked me back on my heels so I can't imagine how it would be to feel like someone was really critical...I understand why they would be with me...more recently my wife thinks that with a Nose Job and a surgical lip correction I could pass  enough to be safe. That is essentially as far as I think I can get too...I don't have unlimited funds.

I remember at the time being totally devastated that no one could even see the potential in me. I don't want to stick out and am going for consults on both these issues. I would be very surprised if there is anything in the kitty after this. The further in transition I go the more I want to be able to drop under peoples radar.

Liz

[EmilyMK03]

I can remember posting in this thread early prior to starting transition...I did not get one response and it really rocked me back on my heels...

I remember at the time being totally devastated that no one could even see the potential in me.

If some people feel that silence is tantamount to criticism, then maybe this thread shouldn't exist.  Or we could let this thread degenerate into a chorus of cheers and affirmations, telling people that they pass regardless.  Or just tell everyone that they have "potential".  /shrug

Conversely, take a look at the following link to a flickr gallery of a makeover studio in London:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/boyswillbegirls/

The vast majority 'pass' on these pictures thanks to the exceptional talents of Cindy, the studio owner (who is TG herself) but few, if any, of them are undergoing transition or HRT.

I don't think they pass.  I guess if they were going to a nightclub they would, but I doubt anyone here is going to spend the majority of their post-transition life in nightclubs.    If you zoom in on their faces, the vast majority of them have obviously male faces, and that's WITH the makeup caked on.  In everyday life, people don't wear that much makeup - ironically it gets you clocked.  I stand by what I said earlier about needing HRT in order to pass.

Sadly, the reality for the majority of us is that we need surgical assistance to counter the effects of testosterone

I agree with you here.  It's sad, but true.

Speaking from my own experience, when I first started presenting as female in public, I went to local transgender support groups.  Almost everyone I met told me that I passed.  I felt great to hear it!  And that's quite a feat, isn't it?  To pass so early, and in-person?  But I had a few friends (some full-time, some part-timers) who told me that I did not pass.  And they were very specific about what facial features looked masculine.  That really hurt, so I know how it feels - and these friends told me this upfront, in-person and to my face!  ouch!!  But I took their criticisms to heart and tried to learn all I could about makeup and contouring to hide these features and emphasize other parts of my face.  And then eventually, when I had FFS, I knew from experience what parts of my face I wanted to get done.  Looking back, although it hurt at the time, I'm very glad that these few, true friends were honest with me.

Now that I think about it, maybe instead of a "do I pass?" thread, it would be more beneficial to have a thread titled "what can I do to look more feminine?"  Or "what can I do to improve my look?"  Because when instead presented with the question, "do I pass?", the answer will invariably be a simple "yes" or "no"... which is not nearly as helpful in comparison.

[MeghanMe]

Now that I think about it, maybe instead of a "do I pass?" thread, it would be more beneficial to have a thread titled "what can I do to look more feminine?"  Or "what can I do to improve my look?"  Because when instead presented with the question, "do I pass?", the answer will invariably be a simple "yes" or "no"... which is not nearly as helpful in comparison.

Seconded.

[Rhonda Lynn]

I can remember posting in this thread early prior to starting transition...I did not get one response and it really rocked me back on my heels so I can't imagine how it would be to feel like someone was really critical...I understand why they would be with me...more recently my wife thinks that with a Nose Job and a surgical lip correction I could pass  enough to be safe. That is essentially as far as I think I can get too...I don't have unlimited funds.

I remember at the time being totally devastated that no one could even see the potential in me. I don't want to stick out and am going for consults on both these issues. I would be very surprised if there is anything in the kitty after this. The further in transition I go the more I want to be able to drop under peoples radar.

Liz

When I started out, I was like many. I had much to learn about passing. I did plenty of things wrong and back in those days there just weren't the resources that are available today. Some people were "nice." Others avoided a direct answer if I asked about my pass ability. Only very few were honest and gave specific advice about a couple of things that I was doing wrong. I would fix those things and try again. FFS wasn't an option at the time; hair, make-up, jewelry and clothes are what i had to work with. I continued the process and got better. It didn't happen overnight.

It is my opinion that this thread should remain a place for honest feedback. Anything else is either useless or misleading. I'm never going to tell a girl that she passes unless I truly think that running across her unknown at the mall that I would gender her as female automatically. Unfortunately, a still photo does not show the full picture. A speaking video clip is what is needed, unless you plan to never speak to anyone, but I digress. We have to start somewhere.

Remember when you get feedback that the poster may very well have gone through this process herself and wants to help you. Therefore, take the advice in the spirit in which it is offered.

Liz, I'm sorry that no one responded to your photo when you posted. I don't particularly remember it being posted. To be honest, it's true that it is a hard thing to tell someone that they don't pass and it is easier to simply not comment. So perhaps there ought to be another thread for people seeking advice on how they can improve rather than seek a definitive "yes" or "no."  When people post, they should make it clear whether they can afford some level of surgical options.

[tgirlamg]

Hi All,

I have up until now avoided posting in this thread because I view it as a bit of a minefield where one must tread lightly.... I agree with Emily that a different thread title could be of help... Some are here for positive affirmation and that affirmation can be invaluable... Instilling confidence to move forward with claiming a life which is truly your own... I benefitted in that way in the beginning of my journey from friends who told me how great I looked when I was probably passable at a glance but not under scrutiny... Still, with confidence I moved forward... Today... I only desire to pass as what I am... Female... If people see me as genetic female or a transwoman matters not...

Others come here for true critique because they seek to make changes but aren't sure what to address ... VirtualFFS dot com offers critique and Photoshopping results but This forum can also be a wonderful place to receive thoughts from your sisters in how they see your best path to visual passing... Remember too, beyond the facial aspects... Passing is very much how you carry yourself, confidence, voice etc so going by a pic or two does not tell the whole story...

We all carry a lot of hopes, expectations and dreams into this process many of those hopes may be realized and some may not but I am honored to be traveling this road with all of you... You are all beautiful women...

Onward we go!

Ashley

[byanyothername]

A couple of recent shots of me :-)




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[Amanda_Combs]

Woah!  You're looking spectacular! Yeah... I'd probably think you're a cisgirl and be super jealous.  [emoji1]


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[Sebby Michelango]

A couple of recent shots of me :-)




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You doesn't pass because of your masculine facial features. Males do often have bigger noses than females in addition to more brow bridge and sharper edges in the face. Shoulders and height might also affect the passing. You do also have very intense makeup around your eyes including a special stare that also do passing harder. It seems like you're hiding something. Showing your teeth when you're smiling and smiling because of you're happy instead of staging it may make you appear more feminine instead. Try to relax and act natural, then people wouldn't read you as a person who tries to hide something or staging something. FFS may be the solution in order to pass as a cis woman. Without it, it would be nearly impossible to pass 110%. People do probably read you as non-cis.

[LizK]

Hi All,

I have up until now avoided posting in this thread because I view it as a bit of a minefield where one must tread lightly.... I agree with Emily that a different thread title could be of help... Some are here for positive affirmation and that affirmation can be invaluable... Instilling confidence to move forward with claiming a life which is truly your own... I benefitted in that way in the beginning of my journey from friends who told me how great I looked when I was probably passable at a glance but not under scrutiny... Still, with confidence I moved forward... Today... I only desire to pass as what I am... Female... If people see me as genetic female or a transwoman matters not...

Others come here for true critique because they seek to make changes but aren't sure what to address ... VirtualFFS dot com offers critique and Photoshopping results but This forum can also be a wonderful place to receive thoughts from your sisters in how they see your best path to visual passing... Remember too, beyond the facial aspects... Passing is very much how you carry yourself, confidence, voice etc so going by a pic or two does not tell the whole story...

We all carry a lot of hopes, expectations and dreams into this process many of those hopes may be realized and some may not but I am honored to be traveling this road with all of you... You are all beautiful women...

Onward we go!

Ashley

I agree totally I feel personally it would be worth while

Personally and I am sure a thread such as "Help me pass" or similar would help others as well as me.

I would like some feedback, I know I don't pass at the moment but like so many I would also like suggestions as to what I can do to improve things. The other part of this is that so many girls say exactly what I do "I will never pass" where in actual fact they will, they just can't see it yet. Just because someone doesn't pass to me they may to someone else.

Liz

[Rhonda Lynn]

A couple of recent shots of me :-)




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I think you look very good. Assuming you were out there with confidence, you would pass.

In my eyes, it helps a lot that your whole outfit works together. The only area where I might suggest some improvement is in maybe a little more hair volume. Jennifer Garner has a long face, perhaps her hairstyles might be something to look at.

[Sinclair]

Also, Thanks to Dena, MeghanMe, and Ataraxia, who were kind enough to be encouraging without sugar-coating or ->-bleeped-<- or whatever the term is.

In looking at the 3 pics posted, pic #2 should be your goal. In that pic your face is soft with nice lips. I get some of that is lighting, but HRT does soften the skin. I thought you looked very nice in pic #2 ... don't give up sweetie.

[aaajjj55]

If some people feel that silence is tantamount to criticism, then maybe this thread shouldn't exist.  Or we could let this thread degenerate into a chorus of cheers and affirmations, telling people that they pass regardless.  Or just tell everyone that they have "potential".  /shrug

I think you're 100% right but, equally, it's important to remember that many of the members of this community have a high level of insecurity about their ability to 'pass' and, rightly or wrongly, post to this thread in the hope that they'll receive encouragement.  Recent posts have underlined the emotional impact of either negative comment or no comment but the last thing that anyone needs is a chorus of platitudes.

I don't think they pass....If you zoom in on their faces ...

Again, on a fundamental level you're right but we don't do forensic examinations on everyone we walk past in the street!  My point here was that, photographically, they appear convincing and many people would not immediately identify them as male on a cursory glance (and we also need to bear in mind firstly that the majority are glamour shots for a specific purpose and secondly that this community has a far better understanding of the facial differences between the genders than the average person). Obviously, put them in a real life situation and, even with a toned down everyday look the majority would not pass due to deportment, voice, mannerisms etc.

Now that I think about it, maybe instead of a "do I pass?" thread, it would be more beneficial to have a thread titled "what can I do to look more feminine?"  Or "what can I do to improve my look?"  Because when instead presented with the question, "do I pass?", the answer will invariably be a simple "yes" or "no"... which is not nearly as helpful in comparison.

You took the words right out of my mouth on this one (and I notice that others agree too).  There is a danger that this thread is toxic in nature either because of the emotional impact of what the poster perceives as negative feedback (or a deafening silence) or because the responders are not being honest in their responses.  We know that two individuals have been adversely affected following posts on this thread but don't know how many more have had similar feelings.

Please can we therefore ask the administrators to consider retitling this thread along the lines suggested?

[LizK]

If some people feel that silence is tantamount to criticism, then maybe this thread shouldn't exist.  Or we could let this thread degenerate into a chorus of cheers and affirmations, telling people that they pass regardless.  Or just tell everyone that they have "potential".  /shrug

That is not what I meant 

I meant basically what you said further down, people will tell you what they think you want to hear. I want to know the hard stuff to hear. I don't know what I don't know...and on the flip side how many girls are far to hard on themselves.

Liz

[winterkat]

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be better to post pics like a half or full body shot like the ones Barbie has been posting, just to get a better view of the overall presentation?  The face selfies from the over-top angle gives a very fishbowl appearance while hiding and reducing the lower chin while taking it from down-up angle makes the chin and jaw look huge.

Also, Karlie Ann and Elizabeth K, give hrt some time, it takes a while for things to actually be noticeable.  I normally don't post pictures and I still live fully as a male (although constant male fail has been a issue at work)  I can tell you that after a year and a half on hrt, things have changed quite a bit, especially as someone who started off hyper masculine and thought that there was no chance of passing.  (I can post what I used to look like and me at 15 months hrt if you like)

Also, I have admit that I totally understand and agree on Emily's honesty.  I understand that some women want to be told they are passable even though they may not be at the moment.  I feel like in support spaces like this, some women are overly nice and aren't 100% honest in an effort to cheerlead each other.  Honestly, you could take a 100 pictures and get a 100 different responses.  I myself prefer someone to be brutally honest but that's just me.

[LizK]

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be better to post pics like a half or full body shot like the ones Barbie has been posting, just to get a better view of the overall presentation?  The face selfies from the over-top angle gives a very fishbowl appearance while hiding and reducing the lower chin while taking it from down-up angle makes the chin and jaw look huge.

Also, Karlie Ann and Elizabeth K, give hrt some time, it takes a while for things to actually be noticeable.  I normally don't post pictures and I still live fully as a male (although constant male fail has been a issue at work)  I can tell you that after a year and a half on hrt, things have changed quite a bit, especially as someone who started off hyper masculine and thought that there was no chance of passing.  (I can post what I used to look like and me at 15 months hrt if you like)

Also, I have admit that I totally understand and agree on Emily's honesty.  I understand that some women want to be told they are passable even though they may not be at the moment.  I feel like in support spaces like this, some women are overly nice and aren't 100% honest in an effort to cheerlead each other.  Honestly, you could take a 100 pictures and get a 100 different responses.  I myself prefer someone to be brutally honest but that's just me.

Patience...yes I need plenty more of that... I have had a couple of people be honest with me and both these people had a far better opinion than I did. But I think we tend to be out own worst critics...I see so many women putting themselves down(me included) when there really is no need...honesty for me is better and I agree, you can't tell much from PIC such as my Avatar Pic. I need some proper full length shots taken before anyone could really tell me if I could or couldn't pass and again as you pointed out this is subjective...I guess male fail is considered a very good sign that you or can pass? If you feel comfortable about posting pics I would love to see some.

Liz

[barbie]

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be better to post pics like a half or full body shot like the ones Barbie has been posting, just to get a better view of the overall presentation?  The face selfies from the over-top angle gives a very fishbowl appearance while hiding and reducing the lower chin while taking it from down-up angle makes the chin and jaw look huge.

Again, I think this thread should be for fun and entertainment with some advice and encouragement.
It is misleading to believe that you can evaluate whether one can pass based on a few snapshots.
Therefore, I think assertive statements need to be avoided here.

Most cis-women at my age here do not take care of their beauty. Even I wear better than most of the college girl students I teach. Both men and women mostly praises my fashion sense and women like to give me advice on fashion and makeup.


Anyway, a kind of self video clip taken last year. Better than photos? I am not quite sure.
You also can see how college students at my university wear. The video clip is boring, as I am not any kind of video producer.



Cheers!

barbie~~

[Karlie Ann]

So, as the person whose post kicked off the discussion...(oops)...

I don't mind helpful criticism.  I'm not looking for, wow, you look great you go girl.  We have a thread for that. But I'm also not looking for No you don't pass too bad so sad.  The criticism put forth in this thread is...harsh.  Constructive criticism is better, like, your nose is big but you can offset it by doing this.  Or your hairstyle isn't working, try this.  In my case, more hormones, lose weight, maybe contouring, I don't know.  But at least leave some hope - your features are masculine but you can make them more feminine by...whatever...and then you'll at least look like a masculine woman instead of a man in a dress.

Just my thoughts.  I'm back on the hormones, because as we all know, it's impossible to stop when it's what you really want.  So tell me what I can do to pass better, not that I don't, because in the end that's where I'm headed.