Morality

[Eevee]

I say loneliness, cause hope, prayer, God, these things play a significant role, so if you took that away from me, I would have a giant void in my being.

What is hope to an atheist? When I hope something goes my way, I have God in mind.

This isn't my original idea, but I think it's appropriate to use here. Imagine I promised to give you a million dollars and you had all the hope in the world that I was going to keep my word. Would that hope serve you any purpose if that million dollars never actually existed? You can hope all you want, but that doesn't mean you'll actually get anything out of that hope. In fact, that hope could be harmful. You might start planning your life as if you were going to be a millionaire soon, which would mean being frivolous with your current spending. That hope doesn't look so shiny now.

That's exactly how I see a hope in a god or an afterlife. If you live your life hoping for it to be true, you are wasting a lot of your life in potentially harmful ways. If you lose hope in something that doesn't have much validity, it can actually be very liberating. Suddenly you can focus more on what you can be more sure of in this life.

[AnonyMs]

My experience is the opposite.  If I go out to lunch with any of my friends from work, the vast majority prays before they eat.

I've never seen anyone do that. Is this the USA?

[Deborah]

I've never seen anyone do that. Is this the USA?

Yes it is the USA.  It is very common where I live in the Southeast.  When my daughter was finishing 6th grade in school there was a dinner at the school for the parents and their children.  The Principal led the entire assembly in giving thanks before we ate.  So it is just the cultural norm.

[Cin]

This isn't my original idea, but I think it's appropriate to use here. Imagine I promised to give you a million dollars and you had all the hope in the world that I was going to keep my word. Would that hope serve you any purpose if that million dollars never actually existed? You can hope all you want, but that doesn't mean you'll actually get anything out of that hope. In fact, that hope could be harmful. You might start planning your life as if you were going to be a millionaire soon, which would mean being frivolous with your current spending. That hope doesn't look so shiny now.

That's exactly how I see a hope in a god or an afterlife. If you live your life hoping for it to be true, you are wasting a lot of your life in potentially harmful ways. If you lose hope in something that doesn't have much validity, it can actually be very liberating. Suddenly you can focus more on what you can be more sure of in this life.

I agree with you, that made a lot of sense to me. Thanks.

It's obvious you people did a great deal of research about psychology and human nature, I feel like I'm asking silly questions, but I'm receiving great answers.

[Eevee]

I agree with you, that made a lot of sense to me. Thanks.

It's obvious you people did a great deal of research about psychology and human nature, I feel like I'm asking silly questions, but I'm receiving great answers.

No problem . There's no such thing as a silly question. I respect anyone who asks questions no matter what angle it comes from.

[Cin]

.  For a theist, the rest of the universe is mere filler as our own planet is by definition the only special one.  An atheist sees so much more in those billions and billions of unique stars with each one special in its own right.  For example, we see planets which rain diamonds just in our own solar system and can only imagine what kind of marvels await throughout the universe.  We are on a spectacular life-altering journey of wonder and discovery, and while there are many things we don't yet understand, the only thing we will never comprehend is why theists not only don't want to come with us, but often want to hold us back. 

Similarly, morality is a concrete effort to improve the human condition on this planet.  The Dark Ages certainly suggest that many theists at one time saw little nobility in attempting to better people's living conditions, but I'd hoped The Enlightenment brought at least a few around to our point of view.  For an atheist, morality really is its own reward in a better social environment.  I can't quite wrap my head around the idea that a fanciful posthumous reward is even equal to that, let alone better somehow.                 

I know there are plenty of strange planets out there but, I don't know if it makes any difference if we didn't discover them.

Also the fact that life hasn't been found elsewhere, it makes it seem like earth is special to me.

[Deborah]

That life hasn't been detected is mainly due to the vast distances involved and the age of the universe.  Given the distances, it would be surprising if we did prove there was life somewhere.  And given the age of the universe, thousands of civilizations could have risen and fallen before the dinosaurs here were extinct.   We may be unique in the universe, but not finding any life yet doesn't prove that.

[kelly_aus]

I say loneliness, cause hope, prayer, God, these things play a significant role, so if you took that away from me, I would have a giant void in my being.

What is hope to an atheist? When I hope something goes my way, I have God in mind.

There's no loneliness etc for me, because I've never believed, so I have no void to fill.

As for space, I know it's amazing but we have so much to discover but we're never going to live long enough to know everything, so unless our conscience lives on, it just comes to an abrupt end.

We might not live long enough to know everything, but there's a certain joy in learning something new, however insignificant it might be. And we would not have the science and technology that we do if everyone had that attitude.

[Soli]

I love this thread. I used to be always the one asking silly questions that would anger the teacher in college and U. (not wanting to lose time on details), I felt kind of stupid but then, everyone started to tell me they appreciated I asked them cause they wanted to but were too shy to do so, so I kept on. Makes a very interesting thread.

I said earlier I never believed in a god that would have created the world and rejected religions early on in my life, but I kept believing in some sort of spirituality of some sort, not knowing exactly what, or any other explanation like that we are the result of an experiment from another civilization, and ...

when I realized a few years back there was nothing, that we were just the result of evolution of life that spread because of unusual ideal conditions and elements, a coincidence, well there was a hole. There is nothing, there is no meaning to life, so we actually have to forge it, that meaning (lots of work pfff, look at the state of the world), and since we are not doing that, what are we doing exactly? Still searching... It has been a great fall I had. I mean I wasn't surprised there was no god, I kind of knew that, but that we and all of Earth is only a coincidence, multiple coincidences... That made my meaning of life approximation search for some sort of new hand to hold my leash that was now totally loose. I'm missing the right words, this is not my language.

So I totally understand the loneliness Cin talks about. I felt it big time and I'm not even a theist.

on the other hand, this kind of great gap one falls into can be of great creativity, it has been for me, for what it's worth... Art and creation in any form still seems to me like the only really good thing humans can do. That's what I do, plus constructing myself as a trans, a new person, same but... working on me and my stuff, what more can I do? I'll leave writings, thinking.

[Soli]

This isn't my original idea, but I think it's appropriate to use here. Imagine I promised to give you a million dollars and you had all the hope in the world that I was going to keep my word. Would that hope serve you any purpose if that million dollars never actually existed? You can hope all you want, but that doesn't mean you'll actually get anything out of that hope. In fact, that hope could be harmful. You might start planning your life as if you were going to be a millionaire soon, which would mean being frivolous with your current spending. That hope doesn't look so shiny now.

That's exactly how I see a hope in a god or an afterlife. If you live your life hoping for it to be true, you are wasting a lot of your life in potentially harmful ways. If you lose hope in something that doesn't have much validity, it can actually be very liberating. Suddenly you can focus more on what you can be more sure of in this life.

in the years before I started my transition, my therapist would tell me I have to aim at being a woman, claim to, with the help of HRT and surgeries, it is possible, and that is the goal... On my side, I was seeing what she was saying pretty much on the same level as religion. Like it's a hope, a belief, a faith I must have... And that faith would rely not on surgeries or my body reshaped by HRT, at least not according to me as I saw it then (and still), but on the society, the others, to let me in their herd if they wanted to, if they so decide I pass. And if not... Great fall. So I rejected her plan. I really felt it then as some kind of a religion, just like all the other religions I had rejected one after the other after studying them. If I do things right, if I don't sin, I will be accepted... And then, I've always been a feminist and I knew very well that many feminists don't see trans from the good eye... I figured I never could claim that I'm a woman, that it would be some kind of an imposture. So I rejected this and I never aimed to become a woman starting HRT, I aimed at being myself and better with myself. There will always be someone to tell me I can't be a woman, just like there will always be someone to say god does not exist.

I'll work on my stuff

I do not believe

anymore

I'll just be

[Cin]

I'm noticing that most of you or all of you believed in something at some point. I must say I went through a phase where I didn't believe in God, but it just didn't work for me but I also felt the grace of God and he communicated with me. That might happen to other people, or not, but it's not really something I can control.

I have days where I wonder if prayer even works, but then prayer either makes me feel better or something happens because I prayed.

If prayer, fear etc means nothing to you, then that means you must have a lot of time on your hands, I can see how it can be liberating, but also could be scary,

What I've noticed is that is some people say humanity is evil and selfish but soli, you sound like you have some kind of "spirit", you are more than just biology, and you made your choices in life and you are confident. Maybe others feel this way too, but I am not seeing it, maybe they are not as cynical as they seem.

[Cin]

I don't really like discussing God with other people, I just sort of see god as this combination of all good qualities from many religions I know, but a lot of traditional religious people obsess with sin too much, and try to condemn other people. I would never dare coming out to any of them as trans.

Anyway, I have believed in creationism for my whole life until maybe a year ago. It's worrying me that I still prefer creationism because it answers why, I don't why I'm so concerned with how life started, just one big bang doesn't make sense to me.

When I think about outer space and stuff, I feel like morality is just an illusion human beings believe in. I'm happy I can at least see where you're all coming from. When you start thinking about galaxies and planets, you feel really small and insignificant

[Deborah]

Anyway, I have believed in creationism for my whole life until maybe a year ago. It's worrying me that I still prefer creationism because it answers why, I don't why I'm so concerned with how life started, just one big bang doesn't make sense to me.

the Big Bang and the initial creation in Genesis are not dissimilar.

The Big Bang posits that there was a singularity that in an instant expanded to form all that is.

Christian theology posits that God, a singularity existing alone, spoke creation into existence that in an instant expanded to form all that is.

From that point I'll depart from the self identified creationists and all their pet theories and biblical literalisms.

[kelly_aus]

I'm noticing that most of you or all of you believed in something at some point. I must say I went through a phase where I didn't believe in God, but it just didn't work for me but I also felt the grace of God and he communicated with me. That might happen to other people, or not, but it's not really something I can control.

I was raised an atheist. In my teens, I did explore various religions including christianity, judaism and islam. All required that I believe in some kind of ephemeral being, which I could not bring myself to do. I also saw the divisions within each group, another negative - if they can't agree, which one is right?

I have days where I wonder if prayer even works, but then prayer either makes me feel better or something happens because I prayed.

From an atheist perspective, prayer is simply a psychological tool that makes people seem to feel better about things.

If prayer, fear etc means nothing to you, then that means you must have a lot of time on your hands, I can see how it can be liberating, but also could be scary,

You must spend an awful lot of time praying then. I don't spend any time on prayer and yet I have a full life.

What I've noticed is that is some people say humanity is evil and selfish but soli, you sound like you have some kind of "spirit", you are more than just biology, and you made your choices in life and you are confident. Maybe others feel this way too, but I am not seeing it, maybe they are not as cynical as they seem.

Individuals are often greedy and evil. However, in order to function in a group, like the social animals we are, you find that the extreme examples of that are tempered by what is often called "common sense" or "group think". I'm cynical as hell, particularly about other people - a situation caused, in large part, by people of religion.

Here's something to ponder. If I went to a mental health professional and stated that I was hearing a voice, that was not my own, giving me instructions, I would likely end up medicated, in long term therapy and perhaps held in a secure facility - for my own safety. However, if I claim this voice is God, Allah, Jesus or some random Saint, I'm likely to get a pat on the head and be sent on my way..

[AnonyMs]

When I think about outer space and stuff, I feel like morality is just an illusion human beings believe in. I'm happy I can at least see where you're all coming from. When you start thinking about galaxies and planets, you feel really small and insignificant

Try looking though a decent telescope and you'll really feel insignificant.

[Cin]

I was raised an atheist. In my teens, I did explore various religions including christianity, judaism and islam. All required that I believe in some kind of ephemeral being, which I could not bring myself to do. I also saw the divisions within each group, another negative - if they can't agree, which one is right?

From an atheist perspective, prayer is simply a psychological tool that makes people seem to feel better about things.

You must spend an awful lot of time praying then. I don't spend any time on prayer and yet I have a full life.

Individuals are often greedy and evil. However, in order to function in a group, like the social animals we are, you find that the extreme examples of that are tempered by what is often called "common sense" or "group think". I'm cynical as hell, particularly about other people - a situation caused, in large part, by people of religion.

Here's something to ponder. If I went to a mental health professional and stated that I was hearing a voice, that was not my own, giving me instructions, I would likely end up medicated, in long term therapy and perhaps held in a secure facility - for my own safety. However, if I claim this voice is God, Allah, Jesus or some random Saint, I'm likely to get a pat on the head and be sent on my way..

I've always had an issue with religion, since there are many, I got the feeling that every religion at some level teaches that it's the only right way to god. I may be wrong, but even within a religion, there are people with differing opinions, so I decided just to ignore people, and I associate religion with people 

As for prayer, well, prayer IS life, at least a big part of my life. It's like mental preparation for me, and also comfort, but I think other people have trained themselves to the point where mental preparation comes easily.

I never really thought of the hearing voices thing, that's interesting. I don't think God can talk to me, I don't hear voices, but I see signs of god helping me out, but it's a subjective thing. Mostly just incredible coincidences happening at the right moment to make things better for me.

I know man can be destructive, but does science tell us why we care for our pets and other animals? Is it beneficial to us?

[Cin]

Try looking though a decent telescope and you'll really feel insignificant.

If I feel insignificant, "why even bother?" is the question that comes to mind.

But some of you people have said why does it even matter if life has no meaning. I think that's a good point but I don't know how long it would take for me to change myself or if it's even possible.

[Cin]

Please don't mind me sharing a personal experience, there have been times when things looked really bad when literally, just prayer sorted things out for me. No amount of prayer has fixed my gender for me, but when I was younger I did believe prayer could help with that, but I am extremely fortunate and lucky in other ways, I feel blessed. I don't know how this sounds to others, but praying and not worrying too much has helped me a lot.

I've done a lot of stupid things in my life, just when I think things cannot get any worse, they get better. I know prayer doesn't work for some, I can't say "pray harder" or "you're not doing it right" but I must say I'm fortunate.

[Soli]

I guess to see any benefit in prayers, one has to believe strongly beforehand that the prayers will have an effect. When I was kid, I was being bullied all the time, so my first reaction was to pray it doesn't happen. I tried to believe what my mama said. I was a good kid, doing nothing wrong, no harm to others and the others were attacking me. I don't know if I didn't believe enough... Prayers didn't work. Actually, I think that's what I was told, that I didn't have the faith enough... Really  I was very skeptical to say the least.

I remember one time I was sitting in the snow with my jacket half torn, my nose bleeding, one of my boots way over there in deep snow... and I was pondering the sayings of Jesus they were telling me he had said, to offer my other cheek if I get slapped. I must have been 8 years old. I couldn't understand, couldn't make any sense out of it. Belief in whatever didn't make any sense, my mom's sayings, any god's... I figured then that I was on my own and that humans were generally bad. What I was seeing and going through and the wars the humans had done in the past and still didn't align with what they were telling me that god was good. Well how so? I couldn't see how this god or any other could be good. Obviously some people were starving (I saw on TV)... All this was not reasonable


The funny thing is I now understand the offer your other cheek part. I'm totally a promoter of non-violence and that is what I thaught to my children: don't fight back, violence brings violence. I read the New Testament a couple times since. There are sayings in there worth reading and thinking about, whoever said or wrote them.

so from early on in my life, morality as explained to me didn't make any sense, it didn't align with what seemed reasonable and good in my point of view, which naturally seemed to be the right point of view. I understand now this might have been the result of a brain with autistic traits, being certain I was right. So that's another thing: how we understand god and morality has to do with many things, one of them is the brain to process it. All human brains don't function the same way. Autistic people have a hard time believing. In whatever. They have to see a reasonable explanation first. I figure believing is probably easier for some humans than others.

[Soli]

just a thought:

in my understanding, Jesus was basically saying: You have to change, you read the writings the wrong way.

He was a rebel and didn't agree with the morality system in place in his time. Wasn't he?