The difference between physical sex and gender identity

[CosmicJoke]

So I am musing a bit on the subject of gender identity. In a nutshell, the question I am asking is why do most find it so difficult to separate physical sex from a person's actual gender identity.
This was hard for me as well and still in some ways, I feel as though just feeling female isn't enough. Sometimes I will measure that against females who were "born female," simply because they have XX chromosomes and all the matching genitalia/reproductive organs along with it. I feel inadequate as a female for those reasons.
Though, in a case of an FtM transgender person, I feel that pretty much disproves the whole idea that a person's physical sex and their actual gender identity always are the same.
Then the next issue seems to be why does society put so much pressure on having to be one extreme over the other. Like, does it actually make you less of your gender identity just because of physical sex or that maybe you just can't keep up with everything you are expected to do as that gender?
Any ideas are welcome.

[Ms Grace]

Cis gender people find it hard to seperate sex (genitals) and gender identity because for them the two things are pretty much the same thing. They've had the majority say so on that for thousands of years so that might account for why that way of thinking is so dominant.

[Kclaire86]

Alot of it stems from gender roles that have been drilled into us as kids. Men work on cars, rough hands, women should be dainty and smooth etc etc. It's like breaking free from whatever religion you were raised as, kinda tough to even remotely believe in another religion simply because it contradicts what you were taught as a child.
Not to come off as anti-religion or anything but if you let your child decide what to believe in, as in you give them information on every religion, they'll be more likely to accept and be more open different views on contradictory beliefs of their peers. An analogy of course.
Like in this day and age you have parents who are now ignoring gender roles for their children, letting little billy play with dolls or wear a dress. Chances are if you were try to explain to a pubescent billy the differences between gender identity and sex he'd be statistically more likely to see the divide.

[Deborah]

After raising two children from birth until the time they left home, I strongly believe that the link between gender roles and gender identity is extremely tenuous at best.  Whether you force a role, or let a child be free, and whatever gender role expressions children may choose at different times as they develop, their gender identity remains constant.

When my daughter was around 7 or 8 she wanted to go camping with the Boy Scouts.  Since I was in charge I finally gave in and said ok, but that she had to keep up and carry her own load.  So I bought her a backpack, loaded it up, and she not only kept up, she led the whole group as we hiked several miles up a canyon to camp.  I had similar experiences when I took her to obstacle courses with the scouts.

Signs of a male gender identity?  No, or at least I have never seen a sign of it.  She just liked doing that stuff to prove her ability, probably largely to me.

[Kylo]

So I am musing a bit on the subject of gender identity. In a nutshell, the question I am asking is why do most find it so difficult to separate physical sex from a person's actual gender identity.
This was hard for me as well and still in some ways, I feel as though just feeling female isn't enough. Sometimes I will measure that against females who were "born female," simply because they have XX chromosomes and all the matching genitalia/reproductive organs along with it. I feel inadequate as a female for those reasons.
Though, in a case of an FtM transgender person, I feel that pretty much disproves the whole idea that a person's physical sex and their actual gender identity always are the same.

I think people are hard-wired to separate people by gender appearance. It doesn't take into account what's under the surface but I think the fact men and women have a fair amount of sexual dimorphism, has something to do with helping us survive in the distant past. So people are predisposed to take a glance and say male or female, and then put that person into a role that in the past, would probably have suited survival better. We've changed now to some degree in practice, but the wiring hasn't. It's taken us however many million years to learn how to use tools, and thousands of years to develop language and culture, I guess it stands to reason it was going to take some time for the more complex concepts like gender identity to become something the average person thinks about.

Then the next issue seems to be why does society put so much pressure on having to be one extreme over the other. Like, does it actually make you less of your gender identity just because of physical sex or that maybe you just can't keep up with everything you are expected to do as that gender?
Any ideas are welcome.

Again, I think it's because in the past it was more a matter of life and death to sort people into roles in which they would survive better. Or their 'tribe' or group or whatever would. There's a lot of pressure on both genders to fit the exact mold that would have enabled this - men supposed to protect and provide for women, women supposed to care for children. It makes much less sense these days, but if you imagine a time back when a tribe contained maybe 30-50 individuals, and every one of those individuals was important and had a job to do or they might all starve or die in attacks from other tribes... the pressure was on.

It's not something people tend to think deeply about unless someone introduced the idea to them. Or unless they notice a problem because they happen to be trans. Even a lot of trans people have difficulty with the idea - imagine how difficult it must have been before medical science actually recognized it. How hard it must have been to say no, this isn't what I am, in the face of everyone else saying and thinking "yes it is, get back in your role". But since science started studying the brain it's found all kinds of stuff nobody was ever aware of that affects everyday life for people. It's just a matter of time for more recognition.

[Rachel]

I have a lot of contact with trans; I am trans. When I was 5 I told my mom I was a girl. I had no thoughts about sex or the differences between gender or sex, just that I knew what gender I was. That was 1967. My Mom freaked out and when I look back I think she was scared. I kept it up and her fear shifted to anger and physical violence. Because I am who and what I am I gravitated to LGBT people growing up and in college. They were friends and lovers.

So why would my mom freak out on her own child? There are lots of reasons: fear of me being taken away, fear of what others would say and do (especially my dad), being ostracized. I come from a very blue collar family and my dad was in the military. We did PT and everything was very strict. Corporal punishment was a way of life from dropping a glass to the dog getting out of the yard.

To answer your question, I think it is a learned response and fear of what others will say and do. Just as I am extremely accepting of others many people do not see the world through the filters I and many like me have.

[Heita]

Gender roles are not inherently linked to a physical sex, but it do have a strong link with gender identities (bear with me a sec), the problem is that our society links gender roles with physical sex so that "boy's stuff" is taken as meaning "biological males natural activities".

Gender identities are a cultural concept, and their evolution was based on the presence of three elements, in this order of importance: gender role, supernatural sanction, gender presentation (not always). Please note that sexual orientation was not a factor at all, being attracted to someone didn't count as information regarding your gender.

Gender roles changes over time and place (think about weaving, it's a male or female activity? Ask an Iranian and a Native American and you'll get opposite answers), and in our time they are becoming more and more non-gendered.
Supernatural sanction, with the decline of organised religion, has been replaced by self-affirmation: you can see here a tenuous link with the time when natural inclinations where understood as a sign from the supernatural about the intended purpose of the child in the group.
Gender presentation has been the most variable, with specific outfits for third gender individuals and/or a fluidity in dressing manly or womanly or combining elements.

It's only when categories gets compartmentalised in a vertically structured society that this sort of rigid/causal mentality takes place: slaves and freemen, aristocrats and peasants, black and white people, man and women... two, distinct, by nature. It serves a hierarchical purpose, and so it needs clear bonds, no intermediate areas and no third options. And it need to be justified in an indisputable way: by nature/divine order. This is when causality kicks in: you are a noblemen because of your blood, you are a woman because of your sex. When there is competition for surplus resources, that being the reason for social stratification, there is an element of "us versus them" that makes stating your allegiance a priority and a fact set in stone by indisputable rules. We are still seeing that today.

[Obfuskatie]

I like to think of feeling your gender identity as a kind of emotional muscle. Cis people are already congruent with their gender identity, so they never experience them separately from their gender roles or sex. Since the majority tends to pathologize the minority, being trans is odd instead of rare and awesome.


     Hugs,
- Katie
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