Is there any thing inherently wrong in choice vs biological determination

[stephaniec]

I'm just somewhat curious on whether it really matters whether you freely choose the gender you desire or your desire is in some way biologically determined through genes and hormones. My personal feeling is that I am trans because I freely choose to live my life as a transgender , but I am also without question biologically determined to be this way. I fought all my life to understand why I wanted to be female and I just came to the conclusion that I absolutely accept the way I am and freely choose to accept this whether it's brain wiring or hormones or genetics or a combination of many factors.I want to be female because I fit so much better in society as a female and I fit my own body so much better as female.

[itsApril]

I've had the same thoughts.  For a number of years it has been an article of faith among the LGBT community that we are "born this way," and that sexual orientation and/or gender identity are predetermined and immutable.  That's a big part of the pitch that LGBT folks have made over the last few decades in arguing for acceptance.  But in a way it's kind of a cop-out to argue that "you have to accept me for who I am because I can't help myself."

I have my doubts.  Though born with male anatomy, I can remember wanting to be female going a long way back.  Maybe that feeling was there all the way back to the beginning.

But I also chose to be a woman.  In the end, it doesn't matter whether it was hard-wired or chosen.  I'm here, and it's right for me.  My right to be a woman and to live as a woman doesn't depend on the origin of my psychology.

[Ⓥ]

To have dysphoria immutably proven by science that it is indeed of a genetic and/or biological origin would be big big news to me... if only to silence the chirping of fundamentalists who condemn us not by our actions, how we look, or how we carry ourselves, but by something we had no control over in the first place.  "Your lifestyle is a choice and a sinful one" will sound outright barbaric in hindsight.

I think we'll get there; maybe not in my lifetime, but we'll get there.

[AnonyMs]

I'm not sure there's any difference. You psychology and choices are heavily influenced by your biology, if not absolutely determined.

[Dee Marshall]

You know that, and I know that, AnonyMs. People who don't understand psychology tend to have this odd belief that the mind is some nebulous non material thing with no direct connection to anything material. Not that they tend to articulate that thought. Even some psychologists seem to think that way. I side with the cognitive behaviorists. Brain structure is the foundation of thought, which is why some things are similar even among people from different cultures.

[Atom]

Take a sample / scan of an MTF brain and you get a similar pattern to a genetic female VS a genetic mans brain.

So yes you can argue a degree of biology. And as already mentioned, I do think this is an 'oversell' by those who partake in the LGBTQWEERtTYUUJiIK community.

Since 16, I've thought many, many times to detranstion - and I've come to the following conclusions:

In could live as a man.
I'd be one of those geeky in teens yet fine wines in the 30 types.
Im not particularly bothered by what's between my legs, it has its uses
My jobs and history would be pretty much the same, Id still hold DV in the UK.
I'd still.wear smart clothes and have a family.
I'd still be a cynical sarcastic abrasive being.

However, I choose to live a certain way because from very early on- I decided I'm not a boy. And while I can take the above into account, I still made the right choice.

[ChasingAlice]

Sometimes probably. I was wearing my sister's dresses when I was 3 so... not much of a choice for me. Then came conversion therapy, which was a huge fail, and now I am transitioning at 38. Life is what we make of it.

[Michelle_P]

It's largely biological. Add in the constrained choices permitted by a culture that denies biology for ideological reasons, and even if it were a matter of choice the alternatives to transition are less than appealing.

The 'choices' I am presented with reduce to three possible longer term outcomes.

1) Socially Acceptible:  Suicide.  I put myself out of societies misery.  A few folks say "Tsk, tsk..."  A few mumble about how it's so sad, but he was so selfish.  Many say "good riddance" and go back to their cheese nachos and watching pro wrestling.

2) Socially Tolerable:  Self Medication.  Alcohol, opioids, Doc Feelgoods prescription mill.  I become invisible to society, a drugged zombie at home, or in an alley conveniently out of the way.  A few folks say "Tsk, tsk..."  Some may want to bust me and send me to prison where I can learn useful skills such as burglary or meth cooking.

3) Socially Unacceptible:  Transition.  I live.  I am happy.  A few folks say "Tsk, tsk..."  Some will say I'm being selfish.  Some will say I'm going to hell for violating a bad translation of a tribal law of some ancient nomads.  Some may offer to send me there.  Using public restrooms may be dangerous or illegal.  But, I live.  I am happy.

Nice set of choices I have there.  Is it any wonder that given the evidence for a strong biological component to my nature that I accept that over ideologically driven nonsense like "all gender is choice"?

[alex82]

Sometimes probably. I was wearing my sister's dresses when I was 3 so... not much of a choice for me. Then came conversion therapy, which was a huge fail, and now I am transitioning at 38. Life is what we make of it.

Oh wow, what was involved in conversion therapy?

Did you have to hang around with pick up artists and have your knees pointing in opposite directions or something? I can't imagine how that would go.

[ChasingAlice]

Oh wow, what was involved in conversion therapy?

Did you have to hang around with pick up artists and have your knees pointing in opposite directions or something? I can't imagine how that would go.

hypnosis

[Michelle_P]

hypnosis

You were most fortunate.  State of the art treatment in 1968, when my parents wanted to 'fix' me, was conversion therapy, consisting of electroconvulsive therapy combined with faradic (electric shocks) or chemical (drug induced nausea) aversion therapy.  From what I've read, it converted us "deviants" into healthy, well adjusted violent psychotics.  Mom and dad went with a cheaper alternative, "vitamin shots" (testosterone) "so you'll grow up right."

Look how well that worked out...

[AnonyMs]

You know that, and I know that, AnonyMs. People who don't understand psychology tend to have this odd belief that the mind is some nebulous non material thing with no direct connection to anything material. Not that they tend to articulate that thought. Even some psychologists seem to think that way. I side with the cognitive behaviorists. Brain structure is the foundation of thought, which is why some things are similar even among people from different cultures.

It probably explains why I'm similar to a human being rather than, say, a fish.

[ChasingAlice]

Im gonna be a fish soon! in terms of being a passable transfemale. But hey each to their own. Peace peeps

[alex82]

You were most fortunate.  State of the art treatment in 1968, when my parents wanted to 'fix' me, was conversion therapy, consisting of electroconvulsive therapy combined with faradic (electric shocks) or chemical (drug induced nausea) aversion therapy.  From what I've read, it converted us "deviants" into healthy, well adjusted violent psychotics.  Mom and dad went with a cheaper alternative, "vitamin shots" (testosterone) "so you'll grow up right."

Look how well that worked out...

I tried to get electric shock therapy. Not for this, but for PTSD. They wouldn't do it.

I had thus lovely idea that they could shock me out of the PTSD, then tranquillize me and I could have a nice rest for fortnight down the local nuthouse. Apparently it doesn't work like that.

[Obfuskatie]

I don't think there is a right answer here. We are trans whether we feel empowered about our choices or not. We can speculate about the causes, I think the real reason being trans is as big of a deal is because a lot of cis people don't like it and can't understand it. We don't ask the question about whether Cis people are biologically cis or choose to be because they don't want to be marginalized. Because society has dictated that the focus should go the other way.


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stephaniec]

I look at it this way, Yes I believe there is a core biological cause in my case , but I also feel there is no fault on my part to see the gender I prefer to express my identity as is obviously my free choice other wise I wouldn't do it. I find that regardless of the cause I freely choose to express myself as my preferred gender within the framework of society. Regardless of the cause , I freely choose my life to be expressed in the social environment as that which is the choice of any woman. I am a woman regardless of the cause. It's the way I fit.

[HughE]

I've had the same thoughts.  For a number of years it has been an article of faith among the LGBT community that we are "born this way," and that sexual orientation and/or gender identity are predetermined and immutable.  That's a big part of the pitch that LGBT folks have made over the last few decades in arguing for acceptance.  But in a way it's kind of a cop-out to argue that "you have to accept me for who I am because I can't help myself."

For a long time the theory used to be that people are born "gender neutral", and that you develop a male or female gender identity depending on how people treat you during infancy and early childhood. Based on that theory, thousands of male babies with damaged or otherwise abnormal genitals were castrated and surgically reassigned to female, and the parents told to raise them as girls. It turned into a disaster, with a very high percentage of the reassigned children  rejecting the female identity and adopting a male one as soon as they were old enough to do so. The most notorious of these cases is that of David Reimer, but there are plenty of other, less publicised ones which have had equally disastrous outcomes.



That's why we now know that your gender identity is something you're born with, and can't later be changed!