Passing or Acceptance, redux

[andy]

Passing, hands down.  If I am seen as a guy, I will be accepted as one.

[Gabrielle]

Personally I'd like to totally pass since then I am identified as a woman by looks and how I act.

[tinkerbell]

For me, being accepted as a woman is more important.  what is the point of  passing as a woman if you are not accepted as one?



tinkerbell

[stephanie_craxford]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it's acceptance for me.  To that end I believe that co-workers who new the old me may even be accepting me as well.  Of course you simply can't ask them, but there are clues out there.  I know that with the female employees in the office that I'm always included in their conversations now, where before if the subject turned to feminine issues they would move off or lower their voices for privacy.  Now I'm included and my opinions asked which is really great.  As far as the men who knew me before I think that it's going to be harder for them.  For the new employees, both male and female who only know Steph they have no problem accepting me.

Yep hands down it's acceptance.  Passing is nice, but being accepted as a woman for me means much more.

Steph

[Melissa]

Yes, I now have to agree with acceptance.  Originally I thought I would choose passing (like 6 months ago), but I have learned that it's more important to be accepted for who you are than to pass as something you may not be.

Melissa

[Kate]

I'm trying to imagine these scenarios in real life...

I see Total Acceptance as making no physical changes, yet crossdressing consistently while interacting only with coworkers, family and friends who all know you're a physical male, yet who treat you as the woman you really are regardless. You look like a man in a dress, yet people are kind enough to treat you for who you are inside. And yet whenever you're alone, whenever you look in the mirror, whenever you get a shower... you see a man. You're not female by any stretch of the imagination, but you get to live within the cultural roles of a woman.

I see Total Passing as using HRT, FFS, and SRS to be unambiguously female, yet interacting only with coworkers, family and friends who know your history and continue to treat you as if you're male regardless. When YOU look at yourself, you feel physically and emotionally complete, since you're now as physically female as can be... the only problem is the bigotry of an intolerant society.

For those of you who chose Total Acceptance... why then seek hormones and possibly SRS? Do you feel they are expected of you by society in order to be granted acceptance by them? Are you making physical changes to fit into a cultural role? Do you then find "passing" important only because people will then treat you as a woman, and not because it matches your own physical self-image?

See, I always thought of TSism as being a *primarily* physical condition, where one's body image doesn't match the internal gender identity. Having to live in a male role kinda sucks too, but changing roles doesn't fix the root problem of being a physical male. If I chose Total Acceptance, I'd still be crying myself to sleep every night because I wasn't female.

So for some of you, is the role, the cultural interactions more important to you than being physically female?

[Melissa]

For those of you who chose Total Acceptance... why then seek hormones and possibly SRS?

I think you succintly answered your own question with:

I'd still be crying myself to sleep every night because I wasn't female.

We change our bodies for ourselves, not for society.  However, society does not show total acceptance, which is why some people choose to have FFS.  The fact is, the prettier you are, the more accepted by society you are and the better life is.  I think you're confusing realism with idealism.

Melissa

[Kate]

I think you succintly answered your own question with:
We change our bodies for ourselves, not for society.  However, society does not show total acceptance, which is why some people choose to have FFS.  The fact is, the prettier you are, the more accepted by society you are and the better life is.  I think you're confusing realism with idealism.

Well no, I'm working within the confines of the hypothetical question:

a) I can be physically male, yet be accepted as a woman (role-wise) by my culture

     or

b) I can be physically female, yet be considered a man by my culture

It seems many people value the woman's cultural role over the female physical form. That's very surprising to me.

[Melissa]

Kate, you are only looking at the extremes.  Try going by these definitions.

Think of it like this.

You could be absolutely beautiful, have everything you do be appropiate to your gender but everyone knows your past and will not accept you as female or male.

OR

You could be a less than beauttiful woman or man, to the point that everyone knows your past but you are admitted to the inner circle without any reservations what so ever.

You are basically comparing a crossdresser with a GG, but you leave no room in the middle for a TS.  this is what it means to me for the definitions.

1. You are a completely beautiful woman and look and sound completely female.  Nobody knows about your past, but you would be ostracized if they ever found out, so you must keep this secret buried.

2. You are a woman that has some gender variant features, but everybody knows about your past and they completely accept you as a woman.  You need to hide nothing.

This is basically the Stealth/Out and Proud paradigm.

Melissa

[Kate]

1. You are a completely beautiful woman and look and sound completely female.  Nobody knows about your past, but you would be ostracized if they ever found out, so you must keep this secret buried.

2. You are a woman that has some gender variant features, but everybody knows about your past and they completely accept you as a woman.  You need to hide nothing.

This is basically the Stealth/Out and Proud paradigm.

Melissa

Hmmm, true, much more realistic options... and yet I'd still pick #1, although it has nothing to do with being "beautiful," and everything to do with being female. It's not that "gender variant features" would bother me because I'd be ugly, but rather because my dysphoria is directly proportional to my physical maleness.

Yes, having to watch my back constantly would be awful. BUT, the internal gender dysphoria would be GONE finally. I'd be happy with me, though I realize OTHER people may not. I'd just be left with facing the usual cultural bigotries, which many people face every day anyway.

If I chose to live with "gender variant features," those variances would forever persist the dysphoria. Yes, the acceptance would be wonderful, but I'd be unhappy with ME. And not because I'm ugly, but rather because I'm not unambiguously female.

In the end, it seems that to cure my own dysphoria, I need to accept MYSELF. Whether other people accept me or not is an important secondary concern, but it has no bearing on (what I'm calling) my transsexual angst. No amount of acceptance or love will ever cure the fact that I'm male. Offer me the chance to remove all ambiguity, and I'm going to take it - as a cure at last.

Now, if I could learn to still see myself as female in spite of those "gender variant features," then I could have it all

[Melissa]

When you start transitioning and start getting ma'amed when you think you are passing as a guy, then I think things start to change.  For me, living as a woman and being accepted as one is much more important than looking 100% female.  Besides, if I got every surgery available, I'd be broke.

Melissa

[Kate]

When you start transitioning and start getting ma'amed when you think you are passing as a guy, then I think things start to change.  For me, living as a woman and being accepted as one is much more important than looking 100% female.

And a very realistic and healthy attitude to have, methinks... one that I hope to learn to accept for myself, as I'm not likely to ever pass at all, let alone 100%.

But you're right, things certainly do change as we move along. I'm still on the other side of the fence from you, a normal-appearing male, so passing is a utopian dream for me right now. If I *was* passing already as a female as you are, then sure... acceptance would move to the forefront.

And yet, the question is exclusive: passing OR acceptance? Female form OR female role? Female OR woman? Female OR traditionally feminine?

If you keep the question purely hypothetical and extreme, it *does* seem to cleanly divide the motivations of transsexuals from that of crossdressers - at least in how I've come to think of it. I've always assumed that transsexuals crave the female physical form first, with the role and acceptance hopefully falling into place along with it. And I assume that crossdressers (well, more accurately: transgenderists) crave the role and acceptance of being a cultural "woman" without wanting to change their physical sex - though they'll reluctantly consider some changes if it gains them the role.

Or, I could be completely wrong, lol...

[Melissa]

Here's the kicker.  I'm sure that much of the reason you want to pass 100% is so that you will be completely accepted as female.

However, if you didn't have to try so hard and were able to just relax and be yourself, wouldn't that make life much more enjoyable?

And yet, the question is exclusive: passing OR acceptance?

The question was not passing or acceptance.  It is total passing or complete acceptance.  There is a big difference there.  What that means is you could pass part of the time and be completely accepted or pass all the time and just be partly accepted.  Isn't people accepting you for who you are, rather than what you look like more important?

The reason I am saying all of these things, is because they are what changed in my mind since I started answering this.

Melissa

[Chynna]

Passing is not relevant as some would say to me

Acceptance is..BUT...ONLY acceptance within myself which as taken 29years to accomplish

However externaly I would rather a person accept me for being a woman even through I look like a man than be this bombshell drop dead georgeous looking woman that people just look at as a beautiful man in a dress
Chynna

[Kate]

Here's the kicker.  I'm sure that much of the reason you want to pass 100% is so that you will be completely accepted as female.

LOL, well no, I'd still rather be a normal physical female (not beautiful, just an average-looking female) in a world intolerant of transsexuals. Even if in this world everyone knows I'm a transsexual (maybe I have to wear a I WAS MALE button, lol), insists on calling me by my male name, forces me to continue wear male clothing, keeps my legal sex markers male, etc.

That's still preferable to a world where everyone treats me like a woman, encourages me to wear female clothing, calls me Kate, considers me legally female... yet where I'm still obviously a male physically. No amount of external validation will ever change the fact that I'm still male(ish)... and it's those male qualities which make me miserable.

Maybe I'm nuts, maybe for me it's more of a body dysmorphic disorder perhaps? It's curious that if someone refers to me as being female, it Rings True, sounds right, makes me smile and feels right. But if someone refers to me as a woman, I tend to cringe a bit, it sounds... presumptuous, off-base, inaccurate. I can easily say I want to be female without any doubts. I hesitate to say I want to be a woman, as I really don't aspire to it. It's a secondary issue.

I don't know what any of that means though, lol...

Isn't people accepting you for who you are, rather than what you look like more important?

Of course, but *neither* option would address my transsexualism. Acceptance is an issue when playing a role, a part, important when attempting to be a "woman," yet irrelevant to being *female*.

For me, I guess it goes back to that "better to be hated for what you are, rather than loved for what you're not" cliche. I'd rather know that I'm female, yet be hated for having once been male... than be a physical male who is treated AS IF I was female.

[stephanie_craxford]

And yet, the question is exclusive: passing OR acceptance? Female form OR female role? Female OR woman? Female OR traditionally feminine?

There is a huge difference between passing and acceptance.  For example acceptance is far more complicated and very difficult if not impossible to achieve.  Lets say I  was FtM, and transitioned at work where the work force was mixed male and female.  As a woman I belonged to that club, was privy to and included in the activities of women.  Men treated me like a woman, in every way and the way they treated me would depend on my looks as a female, and hopefully my skills.

Now as a FtM I'm switching teams.  I could pass being the greatest looking male the world had ever seen, but would that mean I would instantly earn the right to be thought of as a male and share in all the rights and privileges of the male clan.  Remember, as a woman I could have been the butt of their jokes, members of the male group could have had a crush on me, some males may have even fantasized about me, you get the idea.  I have now changed all of that.  The women who I just left would feel much the same way.  That I'm just trying to gain advantage, trying to get ahead, etc.  Being accepted is being included and associated with all things either male or female as applicable, without reservation, being taken into their trust and confided in as a male or female.

Take to day for example, there were four of us girls in the office chatting away as girls do and we got onto the subject of bikini waxes and our experiences, and it got quite descriptive in describing how we experienced it and how our various body parts reacted.  Prior to transition I would never have been included is such a conversation.  Even when I first transitioned I was kept at arms length so to speak, but now I'm included and asked for my opinion, they are accepting me as a woman, and being included in their activities, they accompany me to the washroom, and visa-versa without concern.  Remember that these people knew me from before when we kidded and flirted with each other as males and females do, so to me this is being accepted for who I am not for what I look like.

This is how I see things.

Steph

[Leigh]

For those of you who chose Total Acceptance... why then seek hormones and possibly SRS?

Total acceptance also includes being asked to participate in every actrivity that women do.  You can be the most beautiful woman from the neck up but if you don't have breasts and have a penis there are many activities that you will be excluded from.

If a person is not accepted as their gender who do you associate with?  The good ol boys or girls from your past?  Where do you fit in and with whom? 

Neither fish nor fowl.

Leigh

[Kate]

Seriously, I don't worry about passing.  I haven't for years. (although there was a time where this was my only goal in life). So acceptance seems the only other answer.

That's a good point, and makes me wonder if our answers reflect our particular current situations. Those that pass might naturally focus on acceptance, and those that are more comfortable with how they're treated might long to pass.

For myself, "acceptance" wouldn't change much in my life. Although my being male biases people's reactions in many ways, I'm still treated for who I am.. at least by people who get to know me. But being a guy, I obvious don't "pass," and thus it becomes the most frustrating thing for me. I *am* "accepted", to some degree - until the physicalness gets in the way.

Seeking acceptance into women's roles as a priority is actually a bit of a red flag when diagnosing transsexualism. "True Selves" lists:

"Effeminate men who are uncomfortable in their gender role but not with their own their gender identity (they may deem it easier to change sex than to struggle in their roles or deal with their issues)"

as NOT being a reason to transition.

People so often "conclude" that they they are transsexual, based on a history of feminine behaviour or longing for female role activities. And yet, were that true, than all effeminate gay men must simply be transsexuals in denial.

Instead, it seems like the instinct, urge, or compulsion to be physically female - to "pass" in our *own* eyes - exists independently of feminine behaviour, mannerisms, role, and so on. It's just the strangest thing...

[Melissa]

But as many of you are starting out... consider this:  Do women, regardless of appearance, pass anything?

I think a few have been known to pass kidney stones.

Those who "just do it" get along just fine. 

Great point.  That kind of describes me.  I don't worry about whether I pass or not.  I just go out and be myself and end up enjoying the moment.  If we constantly worry about others then we are not really helping our dysphoria.

Melissa

[Chynna]

Another question inside a question for this thread:

Should a woman who has had a historectomy be excluded from certain activities that only women do since she lacks some PHYSICAL body parts?

Does that mean she is less than a 100% woman simply because she lacks some of the internal plumbing?

When does a person cease being who or what they are because they lack a physical quality or characteristic???

External or internal that is the true question?

I know another thread entirely but it does have a bearing to the question poised don't you think?

Chynna