Gender = societal conditioning?!?

[Nero]

Does anybody transition (SRS and all) because they feel they express themselves better as the opposite sex?
In other words, being a man/woman better suits their personality?

I ask because of recent discussions on whether gender is purely a social construct. If it were (and I don't believe it to be), the above reason is the only I can come up with other than sex or wardrobe convenience.

For those who believe gender to be a man-made product, are you transitioning because you prefer the target gender social role?

Is gender nothing more than having masculine or feminine personality traits? That a person exhibiting feminine traits is better off being a woman?

I'm trying to understand here. If gender is not nature, if the only inherent difference between the genders is body configuration before societal conditioning, what are we doing here?
Couldn't we just learn to be our birth sex?
Or is this about preference - preferring one gender role over another?

My answers to the above questions were all a resounding NAY.

[Alison]

You pose an interesting question Nero, but I'm curious why you limited it to binary transsexuals only?  Surely non binarys have some interesting points of view on whether or not gender is a social construct, being as they can feel some of one, some of the other, both, neither or something else altogether?

If you really want to keep it just transsexual binary identifying people thats fine I will butt out and let ya to it, was just curious.

[Nero]

You pose an interesting question Nero, but I'm curious why you limited it to binary transsexuals only?  Surely non binarys have some interesting points of view on whether or not gender is a social construct, being as they can feel some of one, some of the other, both, neither or something else altogether?

If you really want to keep it just transsexual binary identifying people thats fine I will butt out and let ya to it, was just curious.

Okay, everyone reply. I put that because I want to know how binary transsexuals who believe gender is a social construct reconcile that with their identity. But I am interested in any thoughts on as to whether gender is innate or not. Any thoughts on the subject matter at all.

[lisagurl]

People fall along a bell curve. It is only society's perception that draws a line between traits.

[Keira]

If it was easy to resolve the nurture VS nature debate, it would be solved already.

There's also the whole issue of causal, vs predisposition.
Is gender set in stone by nature, or merely a strongly worded guideline by the brain.

There are many genetically inscribed body disfunctions that may lead to problems, but your action may change things.

What if you've got a girl's brain whch predisposes you towards some activity, but choose to do something else, or are exposed to something else growiing up that counter this predisposition, what impact would that have on the outcome.

[Lori]

Little boys dont cry, boys dont play with those, ladies dont behave like that, you are not eating properly, you eat like a man, you .....etc.

I believe society, especially parents who are embarassed by your actions, mold you and form you to what they think is normal and proper. Doesnt mean your training sticks and you will revert to your old self eventually. Those that cannot usually end up dead by their own hands.

[Shana A]

I'm trying to understand here. If gender is not nature, if the only inherent difference between the genders is body configuration before societal conditioning, what are we doing here?
Couldn't we just learn to be our birth sex?
Or is this about preference - preferring one gender role over another?

I believe there's considerable amount of societal conditioning of gender behavior. It starts day one with identification by a doctor and is written on our birth certificates, and then how we are treated by everyone around us is constantly reinforced by which box was checked, M or F.

I've experienced this my entire life, I never "got" male behavior, and consequently was harassed throughout childhood because I didn't conform. Society sent signals of how it thought I should act, and tried to punish me for not fitting in. There are other factors too, how men and women are supposed to act might be very different in other countries than in the USA, even expectations of gender behavior will be different depending on ones' ethnic background or class. I am Jewish, and a male isn't expected to act macho, it's OK to be bookish or nerdy.

Although many aspects of gender are a construct, I also think there's a whole lot of my sense of gender that is innate, I am who I am, I've always been this way. I didn't have to learn how to act like the way I do, it simply feels more natural. It feels very unnatural to me to be a "man", and I'd rather not have to wear that mask.

Zythyra

[Blanche]

Gender = societal conditioning?!?

No!

Gender = your identity
Societal conditioning = Behaviour (usually linked to your birth sex not your gender)

[tinkerbell]

I think we're getting a wee bit confused on the definition between gender and gender roles.  They are often connected but they are NOT the same thing.
Due to recent studies, I firmly believe that transsexual people are born with a congenital neurological condition that requires treatment; so it's fair to say that for transsexual people, transition IS a physical need.

It is also fair to say that although many transsexual people, particularly in the early years, tend to adopt exaggerated or stereotypical behavior, this is transient, and settles down once the initial euphoria wears off.

As Susan usually says....gender is what you are and gender roles are behaviors adopted throughout our lives.  The second these behaviors deviate from what is expected from our natal sex, punishments are established and rigorous "rules" are implemented to "straighten" such behavior in accordance with our natal sex.  Very sad but very true indeed!

tink

[Wing Walker]

Quote
Gender = societal conditioning?!?
No!

Gender = your identity
Societal conditioning = Behaviour (usually linked to your birth sex not your gender)

I fully agree with Blanche's terse summation.

I was born female within.  My body's response to sexual stimulation is quite different from that which is expected from a male body.  My emotional needs aren't anything like a guy's and I love and treasure intimacy, not necessarily sexual intimacy, but sharing my being, my soul, with my Soul Mate and Life Partner 24/7.

When I began HRT there were profound changes in my perceptions, the way that I responded to usual external stimuli, a feeling of calm.  Even my table manners changed and I did not even try to do that.  It just happened, a sense of "elegance," for lack of a more precise word, came from within me.  My physical brain has been "re-wired" and the realigned neural pathways have given me instinctive knowledge that must be genetic for me because if it wasn't always there the estrogen would not be able to impart it to me.  It is like a set of electrical switches and bridges were changed by the estrogen!

It is nature, not nurture, in my opinion, and I thank God for that!

Wing Walker
Smilin' Through the Rain

[Seshatneferw]

For those who believe gender to be a man-made product, are you transitioning because you prefer the target gender social role?

I believe gender is to some extent a man-made product, and I won't transition because I don't see myself being happier in the opposite social role.

To expand on the first part, remember the story of a group of blind people trying to describe the elephant, after feeling different parts of it? Gender is a bit like that. It's many-sided, and not all of us find the same sides important. But the social aspects are there, and for some they are important.

To expand on the second part, I'm reasonably happy with the social role I have right now, having spent a couple of decades trying to find a suitable niche for myself, after giving up on the stereotypical male expectations. If I were to transition, I would just change from a slightly weird man to a slightly weird (although in different ways) woman. I'm somewhere in the middle, and if there has to be a sharp line between 'male' and 'female' it doesn't really matter which side I'm on.

Still, I'm very happy that I happened to catch gynaecomastia recently: it feels good, and right, to have small but real breasts instead of the phantom ones I've had so far. On the other hand, I'm also ambivalent on how I feel about future developments -- they feel like they 'should' continue growing a little more, but socially it's much more convenient if they stay small enough for me to pass as male.

So, anyway, from my perspective there is some truth in this. In things like body image, I feel very close to the descriptions of classical transsexuality, and I suspect this is also true with at least some personality traits. However, for me gender is so much a social construct that transitioning does not really have any appeal at all.

  Nfr

[SusanK]

Does anybody transition (SRS and all) because they feel they express themselves better as the opposite sex? In other words, being a man/woman better suits their personality?

I believe your gender identity is the whole sense of your being which includes your innate sense of gender (genetic and epigenome), personality, temperament, expression and behvavior. I think social conditioning is learned on top of that as they learn in their childhood and use that as keys throughout their life. Why else do transkids express their gender as early as two, before they see much of the world by gender, and a late as five, after only a few years of interaction with other kids. The parents, siblings and extended family are the prime factor in fostering or inhibiting their innate feelings and expressions in the early years where we learn what is and is not acceptable. After that it's the stress of our society we learn to get by.

Just my thoughts.

--Susan--