On feeling like losing my way...question for m2f who love men....

[Anothergirlsparadise]

What would it need for you to not be regarded as a hermaphrodite - or even more important, what would be required in order for yourself to not see you like that?

Do you desire to be accepted as a woman in all aspects even thoough you tell the people that you are a trans woman? This would then totally depend on the others' ability to really not be influenced by stereotypes. Or can you experience this by not telling people - or do you not have a choice at this time than to tell, because some things are keeping you physically from being regarded as a normal woman?

I dont see myself as a hermaphrodite but other people can make me feel like one because of the way they treat me.

Somehow I get the feeling people here respond that Im to blame for the way others see mee. But no amount of magical thinking can change that.

I see myself as a woman and love myself for it but contact with others costs me a lot of energy because im forced into understanding that its an isolated experience.

Which is why I spent a lot of the time alone. On the other hand...it has happened sometimes that I felt accepted and acknowledged which resulted in a tremendous amount of energy and happyness.

Something that I have a hard time cultivating by myself alone.

I have heard it all before. You have to accept and love youraelf first etc. Well; I have.

I simply acknowledge that I need others to be able to be and feel more happy then I am now.

I dont feel this is weak. I feel that to be very strong and realistic. Im not denying my needs which I believe are totally natural.

About being stealth. Even though i know that most people I meet dont suspect Im trans. But when it gets to friendships and relationships I dont believe in secrecy .

And I dont get off by someone I have no connection at all with regarding me as a woman.

It just makes life easier. But I dont get a thrill out of it. Why would I care what the man or woman on the street think about me?

[Sophia Sage]

In my opinion, given the world and the way it is, the "trans narrative" gets in the way of the truth -- that who I am is unambiguously female.  "Trans" is transitory.  A place to stay on the way to getting where I was going.

Of course, to live this way means having any markers to the contrary unambiguously excised. 

[Anothergirlsparadise]

In my opinion, given the world and the way it is, the "trans narrative" gets in the way of the truth -- that who I am is unambiguously female.  "Trans" is transitory.  A place to stay on the way to getting where I was going.

Of course, to live this way means having any markers to the contrary unambiguously excised.

True but I dont see myself having deep friendships and relationships and being able to keep this a secret. Even if I did srs. Its not something I will be able to hide. And would I feel comfortable hiding it?

I shave every day. I have a body that is androgynous...i went through male puberty. Even though I pass . how long would I be able to hide it?

For me its not a realistic option to choose.

[anjaq]

Well, its a dilemma and I think it is a common one. If you tell people you "are trans", it invokes a litany of preconceptions and stereotypes which makes it almost impossible for many to just treat you as a normal woman, because in their mind you are not - you are at best a woman who has a transsexual past, at worst they consider you a man living like a woman now. This is sad, but it is true for most people except a very few exceptions, I believe.

The alternative others choose is to not tell and be "stealth" - then people do not know and do not behanve differently. But some trans women feel like they are hiding something then and feel the urge to tell those getting a bit closer. Maybe because they also want to talk about this topic to someone?

This is hard and I am not sure how to do it myself. I also feel like it SHOULD not be an issue to talk about it if it comes up - in a better society it would maybe not be. But this is not working now. What I think may work is to think of yourself not as hiding some truth that others are eligible to know. I am a woman. I was not "born a man" or "did a gender change" or something like that. I am a woman and thats it. Now about those parts of my past that are "trans", some of these things do not come up unless I want to. No one will ask me out of the blue if I had a genital surgery or had hormone therapy. Why would they ask this to a woman. If I talk about myself, I see no need to talk about these things - they are intimate, not just private. Most friends of you will not talk about having had a appendectomy at age 12 or a corrective nose surgery at age 16 because of their breathing difficulties - unless this topic comes up someway. So I can have a conversation with friends and this never comes up. I tell them I was horsebackriding with my sister in the vacations when I was a kid, what I did in school, what I did at home - even if it is not always the most girly teenage past, it is reasonable and I do not feel the need to refer to me as "he" when I talk about my past. There is little that is completely off about my past.

Now the problem of course comes when the trans topic hits the conversations. When others talk about it, want my opinion on it, etc - or when friends start to share intimate details - or when one gets close enough with a partner that intimate details are exchanged. I guess at that point there is no escaping the choice to either lie, remain silent or come out. I keep hoping these moments will be few.

EDIT: Of course it is my luck to have "passing privilege" and I am not forced by my body anymore to come out unless I want to. If this is the case, the choices would be different, obviously.

[Sophia Sage]

True but I dont see myself having deep friendships and relationships and being able to keep this a secret. Even if I did srs. Its not something I will be able to hide. And would I feel comfortable hiding it?

I shave every day. I have a body that is androgynous...i went through male puberty. Even though I pass . how long would I be able to hide it?

For me its not a realistic option to choose.

It's certainly not a realistic option to choose while transition is incomplete.  How long does it take?  As long as it takes.  I had two years of electrolysis to stop shaving, for example.  A tremendous amount of surgery.  Long hours working on my voice.  I did all this precisely so no one would ever broach the subject with me.  Today, no one else takes that initiative in my life, and I'm certainly not going to, either. 

It's like being in high school.  When you're in high school, it dominates your life.  Several years after graduation, it's not something I ever needed to talk about, and really no one talks about getting their high school diploma.  It's just something we ultimately let go of.  (And no, I don't do high school reunions.) 

As anjaq says, this is passing privilege -- but even if you don't possess that privilege, you don't have to be the one to initiate such conversations.  And you can be completely honest about it -- because your truth is that you're a woman, that the "college of transition" was such a painful process you prefer not to talk about it, if the person who brings it up isn't kosher with this then there's no more relationship to be had. 

[Anothergirlsparadise]

It amazes me how easely one can disregard something that is so essential in the eyes of others.

Did you really have to tell? At one point?? Can you endure the dissapointment in the eyes of the other? And when it comes to friendships...the sense of betrayel?

Do you have any experience with this?

You all make it sound so easy but its not.
Did you al start early in childhood???

I pass.  I even live in a town where nobody seems to know Im trans. But how on earth can you hide it in close friendships...let alone relationships...

It really amazes me!!
Its not just about being stealth its about your concern for the other.

It makes me wonder how long you been living as a transwoman and if its not wishfull thinking.

Would you honestly start a relationship and not tell??

And honestly Ive know a lot of transwoman who were convinced they werr living in deep stealth...even when I noticed people noticing them on the streets.

That so called passing privilage is for the young and lucky few mostly.

And even when I truely seen to pass...its not something I boast about and it does not make it possible for me to keep hiding to close (boy) friends.

Perhaps I suffer from too much sanity.

[Virginia Hall]

Music interlude -- you New Yorkers will get the detailed references, but you don't have to be from NYC--the names and the places change but the scene is the same!

[anjaq]

No, I am not stealth. I do generally pass. Women ask me for tampons, doctors if I am pregnant or if I have my menstruation regularly. But many people know because it goes around and in some cases I talked about it. Most of my doctors know, my best friend know because I knew her early in transition, ... But I do not want to see the disappointment in the others if I tell - so I try not to tell. I think the concept that being trans is something that others are entitled to know if they want to be close to us is a strange one. Where does this entitlement come from? Why is it a big betrayal and lack of trust and so on, if I do not tell this part of my life - compared to maybe something like having had breast augmentation, or cis women getting genital beautification surgery, or having stolen stuff as a teenager and been sentenced to public service.
Most Cis people seem to somehow assume they are entitled to know this intimate detail about us if they are closer to us than a random encounter on the street. Is this justified?

I think a partner eventually has to know. I would tell him all of the other things above as well. This is particularly hard to find the right moment to come out to a partner.

And yes, I think a lot of trans women are having wishful thinking about being 100% stealth. I know that I am not, but I enjoy those areas of my life where it is so and I do not intend to destroy this by coming out and consequently not being asked anymore for a tampon or experience how conversation topics shift away from menstruation, childbearing and menopause when I enter the group because it is "girl talk" (and thus not something to share with a ->-bleeped-<-). I hate that it is like that but see no way out.

[Sophia Sage]

It amazes me how easely one can disregard something that is so essential in the eyes of others.

No one else gets to choose this for me.  And I, for one, don't believe there's such a thing as "essence."

Did you really have to tell? At one point?? Can you endure the dissapointment in the eyes of the other? And when it comes to friendships...the sense of betrayel?

Do you have any experience with this?

You all make it sound so easy but its not.
Did you al start early in childhood???

I pass.  I even live in a town where nobody seems to know Im trans. But how on earth can you hide it in close friendships...let alone relationships...

It really amazes me!!
Its not just about being stealth its about your concern for the other.

It makes me wonder how long you been living as a transwoman and if its not wishfull thinking.

I haven't been living as a transwoman.  I've been living as a woman since my early thirties, since I got everything done, and now I'm approaching fifty.  I have never told anyone post-transition about my medical history, and have never been asked about it, either, not by anyone who didn't know me before.   

I do know what it's like, though, to be challenged on this, and how the conversation can go.  Pre-SRS.  Dating a man.  When it got hot and heavy, and I had to back off.  He had detected stubble while kissing (my mistake), and put out the question.  And so we talked.  And no, he wasn't interested in going any further.  He was freaked out, mostly about what it "said" about him and his sexuality and his identity.  He came back a couple months after SRS, but I wouldn't have it.

It feels dehumanizing, to be so suddenly "othered."  It was incredibly dysphoria-inducing, because at that moment he was misgendering me, not with his words but with his attitude, his reaction, his emotions. 

So no, I don't tell, and I've done everything in my power to make sure it's something that anyone would ever think of bringing up in the first place.  It was not easy!

Would you honestly start a relationship and not tell??

I've had ten lovers post-everything.  No one has asked.  One relationship went six years, and the longer it went, the easier it got, and the more it proved to me that this is what I wanted all along.  He met my parents several times, by the way.  They are impeccable, and fully support my choices. 

I've had dozens of friendships post-everything.  Many still ongoing, even though they're long distance due to work-related relocations.  No one has asked. 

I'm work with the public, a new job long after transition.  I talk to thousands of people face-to-face every year.  It doesn't come up, and I'm a top performer. 

Here's the thing.  This is not something that other people want to know.  They would prefer not to know.  It makes everyone's lives easier.  It's the most considerate thing I can do.

So I never tell.  It's one of the best decisions I've ever made. 

[Virginia Hall]

No one else gets to choose this for me.  And I, for one, don't believe there's such a thing as "essence."

I've been living as a woman since my early thirties, since I got everything done, and now I'm approaching fifty.  I have never told anyone post-transition about my medical history, and have never been asked about it, either, not by anyone who didn't know me before . . .

Here's the thing.  This is not something that other people want to know.  They would prefer not to know.  It makes everyone's lives easier.  It's the most considerate thing I can do.

So I never tell.  It's one of the best decisions I've ever made.

I think back when I was a child. The concept of "transsexual" did not exist. Now it does. I knew as a child that when I grew older, I wanted simple to blend in with other women, the way it should have been in the beginning.

Not saying that I am right and everyone else is mixed up--just saying that there are other options.

[Anothergirlsparadise]

No one else gets to choose this for me.  And I, for one, don't believe there's such a thing as "essence."

Agreed. But in the same way you do not get to decide what is essential for others.

I haven't been living as a transwoman.  I've been living as a woman since my early thirties, since I got everything done, and now I'm approaching fifty.  I have never told anyone post-transition about my medical history, and have never been asked about it, either, not by anyone who didn't know me before.   

I do know what it's like, though, to be challenged on this, and how the conversation can go.  Pre-SRS.  Dating a man.  When it got hot and heavy, and I had to back off.  He had detected stubble while kissing (my mistake), and put out the question.  And so we talked.  And no, he wasn't interested in going any further.  He was freaked out, mostly about what it "said" about him and his sexuality and his identity.  He came back a couple months after SRS, but I wouldn't have it.

This is exactly the reason Im open about being transgender. To avoid these kind of painfull situations. However that comes with a price. On the other hand I would not be able to relax and would worry if a partner would find out. Even post op. The problems Im experiencing in this area are never related to my genitals. Once I am post op...nothing has changed this situation for me. I would still feel uncomfortable and unsafe hiding it.

It feels dehumanizing, to be so suddenly "othered."  It was incredibly dysphoria-inducing, because at that moment he was misgendering me, not with his words but with his attitude, his reaction, his emotions. 

I know how that feels. Its exactly the pain I experience now because Im open about my being trans.

Everything is fine...but the moment I mention it.  Everything changes. This is also true for most woman and almost all people. Everything is normal but once I mention Im trans the whole dialogue changes and the way Im treated. I find this very sad and frustrating and dehumanizing.

It also makes me angry at times. Once I mention it everything I am seems to be judged as if I in reality am a man thats pretending to be something he is not. While I am always myself. I did not need to learn to speak feminine...to act feminine or to think feminine...it was all always there which resulted in a lot of social pain and bullying in my younger years. Back then my femininity was at least regarded as authentic.

Now when Im mention I am TS I feel people try to see masculinity and try to judge that as real...while everything I naturally am is suddenly considered "learned" or "not real".

I find this very frustrating and painfull and it makes me angry. Because I am very authentic...there is nothing fake about me!!

So no, I don't tell, and I've done everything in my power to make sure it's something that anyone would ever think of bringing up in the first place.  It was not easy!


I've had ten lovers post-everything.  No one has asked.  One relationship went six years, and the longer it went, the easier it got, and the more it proved to me that this is what I wanted all along.  He met my parents several times, by the way.  They are impeccable, and fully support my choices. 

I've had dozens of friendships post-everything.  Many still ongoing, even though they're long distance due to work-related relocations.  No one has asked. 

I'm work with the public, a new job long after transition.  I talk to thousands of people face-to-face every year.  It doesn't come up, and I'm a top performer. 

Here's the thing.  This is not something that other people want to know.  They would prefer not to know.  It makes everyone's lives easier.  It's the most considerate thing I can do.

So I never tell.  It's one of the best decisions I've ever made.

I agree about people not wanting to know. However when it comes to very close friendships and relationships I tend to disagree with you.

We would never think of writing on this forum If we were not trans. In the same way... Being trans is part of who I am...and if I want a deep connection with the other it is a part of me that needs just as much acceptance as the fact Im not less then a woman. Hope that makes sense.

[Anothergirlsparadise]

.

And yes, I think a lot of trans women are having wishful thinking about being 100% stealth. I know that I am not, but I enjoy those areas of my life where it is so and I do not intend to destroy this by coming out and consequently not being asked anymore for a tampon or experience how conversation topics shift away from menstruation, childbearing and menopause when I enter the group because it is "girl talk" (and thus not something to share with a ->-bleeped-<-). I hate that it is like that but see no way out.

Well to avoid those subjects a coming out is handy. Personally I realy dislike those conversation subjects.. And avoid woman whose sole purpose in life is menstruation, child bearing and raising children. I find it incredebly boring.

[Anothergirlsparadise]

Maybe Im too considerate. When I talk to people and they get close I cannot help but wonder if they would be so open if they knew I was trans.

This has not made life easy for me. Its even better for me to avoid people nowadays because I just dont know how to deal with this.

I dislike exposing myself but I also feel uncomfortable in close relationships when people not know.

Its the reason i have created a wall around me. Because I find the whole situation complicated.

And then there is the question about safety. I feel safe living stealth and do not want to become the talk of the town. Let alone attract the attention of haters.

Its a real dilemma for me.
All this stuff really keeps me from enjoying my life as a woman.

[Virginia Hall]

This is exactly the reason Im open about being transgender. To avoid these kind of painfull situations. However that comes with a price. On the other hand I would not be able to relax and would worry if a partner would find out. Even post op. .  .

I would still feel uncomfortable and unsafe hiding it.


I know how that feels. Its exactly the pain I experience now because Im open about my being trans.

. . . Everything is normal but once I mention Im trans the whole dialogue changes and the way Im treated. I find this very sad and frustrating and dehumanizing.

I agree about people not wanting to know. However when it comes to very close friendships and relationships I tend to disagree with you.

We would never think of writing on this forum If we were not trans. In the same way... Being trans is part of who I am...and if I want a deep connection with the other it is a part of me that needs just as much acceptance as the fact Im not less then a woman. Hope that makes sense.

Trans is an identity. A construct if you will. As I suggested earlier, it certainly is legitimate and in an era, a couple centuries back, without HRT, BAS, FFS, SRS, and electro, being in between was as good as it got and that's where I would have likely ended up if I survived.

Fast forward to the 20th century and that alphabet soup of treatments made transsexing possible.

Now in the 21st century, with blockers and medical intervention prior to puberty, yet another step is taken to live authentically at an earlier age and the construct of transsexualism is less needed than centuries ago or even in the 20th century.

We may fast be approaching a time when transsexualism will no longer be a waypoint--an oasis.

Maybe the day is around the corner where all this needless suffering will finally be behind us and the kids coming up won't have to do the constant 'splaing.

[Wanda Jane]

I'm 54 and nowhere near passable at this point. I have yet to start HRT and haven't looked into surgery yet. I do plan all the above at some point. To stay sane I'm basically presenting as feminized. I wear light makeup and very sheer nail polish. I'm growing my hair out, it's in a kinda long pixie type style right now. I shave my arms, legs and pits. I wear perfume and use feminine hygiene products. I sport a cute purse, (that helps a lot). I do get a lot of strange looks and even stared at in public, but I'm me and that's what counts. I have a great support network. I'm also alcoholic and have a wonderful supporting AA group. The cis girls there welcome me and give me tips and advice. I also go to a local trans support group. That is the best thing I do for my sanity. There I can talk out loud about my trials and tribulations. There is something about talking out loud. Things lose their power and hold over me when I talk about them. With all that said, it is tough to think about love and finding someone. I love men too, mostly strait men. I've looked around a bit at the LGBT AA meetings, but most of those guys don't really do it for me. I was talking with some of my cis girlfriends the other night after a meeting and we were talking about "being swept off your feet". I just thought about it for a moment and said "I REALLY want to be swept off my feet!". One of them looked and me and smiled. She said I was blushing and had never seen me do that before. I realized then that I still have hope, hope that I will one day pass, be complete and find "Mr. Right". I have to have that hope. In the meantime I also have to love my journey. Every step is making me into the woman I know I am. When the mean girls and tough guys are staring me down in Walmart I remember that, give a nice wave and strut off knowing I know who I am. I rambled a bit, but that is how I keep my way.

[Sophia Sage]

No, I am not stealth. I do generally pass. Women ask me for tampons, doctors if I am pregnant or if I have my menstruation regularly. But many people know because it goes around and in some cases I talked about it. Most of my doctors know, my best friend know because I knew her early in transition, ... But I do not want to see the disappointment in the others if I tell - so I try not to tell. I think the concept that being trans is something that others are entitled to know if they want to be close to us is a strange one. Where does this entitlement come from? Why is it a big betrayal and lack of trust and so on, if I do not tell this part of my life - compared to maybe something like having had breast augmentation, or cis women getting genital beautification surgery, or having stolen stuff as a teenager and been sentenced to public service.

That sense of entitlement is a consequence of privilege, I think.  It is not a privilege I will to acquiesce to.

And yes, I think a lot of trans women are having wishful thinking about being 100% stealth. I know that I am not, but I enjoy those areas of my life where it is so and I do not intend to destroy this by coming out and consequently not being asked anymore for a tampon or experience how conversation topics shift away from menstruation, childbearing and menopause when I enter the group because it is "girl talk" (and thus not something to share with a ->-bleeped-<-). I hate that it is like that but see no way out.

This is the society that we currently live in.  Which, we should remember, is not the same society that women had to navigate fifty years ago.  It will eventually change, at some point.  Until then, we adapt to the circumstances in which we find ourselves.

There was a Neil Gaiman short story many years ago about a magic pill that cured cancer, but it had the side effect of completely rewriting your DNA such that a sex change was effected.  Of course, its use became rampant in society.  People would live longer and longer, switching back and forth, and at first there were rules in place to try and identify the switchers -- to keep a fixed gender identity in place.  But eventually, those who never took the pill became a distinct minority, and eventually died out.  Switching was normal, understood, and so of course no one had to say anything about it.

That's what "normal" is -- men and women don't have to tell the world they're men and women, and straight people don't have to tell the world they're straight.  It's either apparent or assumed. 

Now, I don't have illusions about the so-called 100% experience.  I'm still in relationship to my family, for example, and of course they know full well -- and they know full well the relationship will end if they're not impeccable, because I won't put up with anything stirring my dysphoria.  I am in relationship with a few women as deep or deeper into a post-transition life as I am, but because we all know what it's like it's actually properly intimate, not estranging.  And of course a couple doctors know, in order to provide proper health care.  In all these spheres, confidentiality is explicitly expected. 

Most of my life is lived outside these spheres. 

I think a partner eventually has to know. I would tell him all of the other things above as well. This is particularly hard to find the right moment to come out to a partner.

I don't know.  Does coming out in this context lead to greater intimacy, or does it create distance?  It really depends on your partner.  For the vast majority of partners, I think it does more harm than good to the relationship. 

And the thing is, no one ever gets a perfect partner, except in fairy tales and rom-coms.  There are things I'd tell my girlfriends that I'd never tell my lover, and vice-versa.  And I'm sure there's plenty he'd never share, and frankly I probably wouldn't want him to.  We are so often different people in different contexts.  It doesn't have to be uniform across every sphere.  I am not the same person at work than I am at a family gathering, than I am hanging out with friends, than I am making love, than I am sitting home alone on a Thursday night watching TV. 

So why the compulsion to tell a partner, when they're already doing everything right?  Perhaps, to allude to the words said not too long ago by a wise woman, all it takes is letting go.  Once transition is over, just let it go.  "Trans" was a useful identity during that period, made it possible to survive, but it too is a construction that we don't have to hold onto.

Who we are exists only in the present.  The past is long gone, and the future has yet to arrive and even then it will be transitory.  So how about trying just staying in the Here and Now?

[Anothergirlsparadise]

Sophia Sage,

I admire you for your strenght.
I feel that on one level I completely agree with you,
But on another; I simply will not have the strength to do it.
I shave every day...not because its very visable...but Im a blond and the blond hair are hard to remove without scarring the skin. The darker ones I have had removed. I pass...and I am accepted...I should be thrilled....but in the back of my mind I always feel like cinderella...as if everything can be taken away from me again. Its like I dare not trust my luck.

I also have noticed that I have not accepted myself as a woman as weird as that may sound. But I am really working on it. At one level i have accepted it...and my mind has accepted it. But allowimg myself to be a woman is still very difficult. I lose contact with myself very easely.

I feel traumatised by everything and exhausted. But Im also proud. Of who I am and how far Ive come. Im still alive!!! And I am a very nice girl. (I know I am!).

Thanks for sharing your lives. Hope to read more.

[Anothergirlsparadise]

Its been 10 years and Im still not used to being trans.
It feels like a war raging in my mind every day.

I never have seem to get to that point of letting go. 
Always surviving...now for almost 40 years and I have veen wondering why and for what.

I try to accept myself as a woman but that still make me hate being trans.

I do feel somewhat alone in this.
Its like others find their way but I never get used to it

Ive tried repressing it...disctracting myself....reflecting on the suffering of others but it keeps haunting

Past years there were times that I got dangerously close to ending it...

I worked my way through it...but its always there...it always comes back.... And Im so tired !

[Wednesday]

I think maybe some investments on your persona will come in handy. You described yourself as "plain almost borderline ugly", "no interest in shopping", etc.

That raised kind of a red flag to me. As RuPaul's says, "If you don't love yourself...". You know. I think some investments on your persona will be great. Maybe pampering yourself (maybe nice shape, cosmetic surgeries, nice clothes, good cosmetics, neat makeup) can help you at being, not just at ease, but really happy with who you are.

External validation is always nice, but you may take almost all input received with a grain of salt. I mean, If a guy who knows nothing about you nor about transsexuals reacts to you telling you're "an impersonator"... Why you should (or anybody) give him credit? I mean, he doesn't know you, he can't know for real.

Building a nice social network made of people who is aware of your trans status might be a good idea. You're going to receive positive and valuable feedback from them. Also, this network could bring you interesting dating opportunities, for example, or interesting social opportunities.

Also, keep in mind that "ciswomen life" is not a fairy tale. I've met lots of transgirls who thought that "living the life of a cisfemale would be a dream" just to stumble upon the fact that actually it's not. Has its ups and downs, very much like transgirls life.

[Anothergirlsparadise]

The fact that I look plain makes me pass and thats comfortable. The more I start investing in clothes (small budget and money I like to spend on other things), the more attention I get...the more attention I get...the more people read me as Ts.

As for cosmetic surgery; havent got the budget ...but im alao afraid of looking "fake"
At least I look natural now.

What you are telling me is very superficial. I like to move about with the least effort.
When I date I of course look the part.

But in daily life I like being plain and invisible. I dont like to look like someone who had FFS. FfS often makes even ciswoman look like transwoman