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The role of HGH in HRT

Started by Brooke, December 02, 2016, 01:11:11 PM

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Brooke

I've been reading some literature on the effects of Intermittent Fasting (IF) on the body, and have found that it can increase human growth hormone levels, increase Testosterone, and decrease Estrogen.

As someone who uses IF to help with multiple issues (seizures, migraines, neurological damage, and nerve damage) I have also noticed that I have great difficulty in getting and keeping my T and E levels in the correct ranges. ( T too high and E too low)

Despite this I am still seeing excellent feminization results.

This got my wondering how HGH affect typical puberty for both boys and girls, and what role it plays in secondary sexual characteristics. I have not found much research that addresses this issue, only the effects of the lack of HGH and various protocols to treat HGH deficiencies.

Anyone here know what role HGH plays in those secondary sex characteristics in cis puberty and if there is any data on their role in cross-sex hormone therapy?

I thought this information would be helpful for any guys that are in their own transition, (always check with doctor, not medical advice etc) even if it doesn't help with my own questions.

Hugs!
Brooke
  •  

KayXo

Hormonal Breast Augmentation: Prognostic Relevance of Insulin-Like Growth Factor-I,
Gynecological Endocrinology, 12:2, 123-127


"In 21 women (46.7%), breast size increased from 824.3 ± 13.7 mm to 898.5 ± 12.5 mm after 6 months. In these women a significant increase in IGF-I values was noted after 4 weeks of treatment. The increase in IGF-I values was not statistically significant in the remaining women. In addition, treatment was not successful in these women."

"IGF-I concentration seems to be of prognostic value as far as the response of breast tissue to estrogen stimulation is concerned. If IGF-I levels do not increase within 1 month, treatment should be discontinued. If IGF-I values do increase, this indicates that treatment is likely to be successful and can therefore be continued."

GH stimulates IGF-1 and most its effects appear to be mediated through IGF-1. Estrogen when circulating through the liver, downregulates (reduces) IGF-1 production as opposed to androgen which upregulates it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormonal_breast_enhancement

"Systemic administration of GH or IGF-1 causes mammary hyperplasia (enlargement of the mammary glands) in animals.[21] For example, in a study of aged female rhesus macaques, treatment with GH alone, IGF-1 alone, and the combination of GH and IGF-1, were found to produce mammary gland hyperplasia and increased mammary gland size and epithelial proliferation by 2-fold, 3- to 4-fold, and 4- to 5-fold, respectively, changes that were directly correlated with serum concentrations of GH and IGF-1.[22][23][24] Accordingly, research has found that girls with growth hormone deficiency (GHD) who are treated with GH experience accelerated breast growth[25] and that boys with GHD treated with GH sometimes experience gynecomastia.[26] Moreover, IGF-1 levels and activity have been found to be correlated with breast volume in the female general population.[10]"

But,

"In women with Laron syndrome, where the growth hormone receptor (GHR) is defective and insensitive to GH and serum IGF-1 levels are very low, puberty, including breast development, is delayed, although full sexual maturity is always eventually reached.[27] Moreover, breast development and size are normal (albeit delayed) in spite of GH/IGF-1 axis insufficiency"

You can find lots of other useful information on this page but check references, as always.

I believe both estrogen and progesterone upregulate (increase) GH receptors in breast tissue. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_development

"The master regulators of breast development are the steroid hormones, estrogen and progesterone, growth hormone (GH), mostly via its secretory product, insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1), and prolactin.[1]"

Etc.

Enjoy :) and glad you're experiencing good results. Goes to show you that we are all different and some may do very well on low levels of E, despite higher T.

Also, this might interest you although how they define feminization and androgenization is flawed in some ways:

J Natl Med Assoc. 1992 Mar; 84(3): 241–250.

"Despite similar degrees of feminization in all 40 individuals in whom hormonal studies were performed, variable suppression of serum testosterone concentrations was present. Based on their testosterone concentrations while on feminizing hormone therapy, the transsexual inmates could be divided into three groups. In Group I (the "suppressed" group), the serum testosterone concentrations were markedly depressed (less than 10 ng/dL); in Group II (the "non-suppressed" group), the values of testosterone were normal (446 to 1072 ng/dL); and in Group III (the "intermediate" group), the testosterone values were between those of the suppressed group and the nonsuppressed group. We speculate that feminizing hormone therapy may induce the development of a state of target hormone resistance to testosterone that results in similar degrees of feminization independent of the circulating concentrations of testosterone."



I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Jean24

Yea, I know it! I can describe HGH in an acronym that most transgender people are familiar with: YMMV.

I got super tired of hearing that lame, vague description of varying results so I did a little research. After the teens, your ability to get great results declines sharply - right along with your HGH levels. It's the question mark variable that everyone describes as to YMMV.

Specifically for breast growth, HGH is the reason we can transition in our early teens and get the same result as cisgender women. Now part of it does have to do with genetics with genes favoring large breasts being more present in individuals who are female as far as their chromosomes go. That's why even an early start tends to give you smaller breast sizes than moms, sisters, aunts, grandmothers, etc. But a big part is HGH, in being able to reach tanner stage 5.
Trying to take it one day at a time :)
  •  

Brooke

Quote from: KayXo on December 02, 2016, 03:54:28 PM
Hormonal Breast Augmentation: Prognostic Relevance of Insulin-Like Growth Factor-I,
Gynecological Endocrinology, 12:2, 123-127


"In 21 women (46.7%), breast size increased from 824.3 ± 13.7 mm to 898.5 ± 12.5 mm after 6 months. In these women a significant increase in IGF-I values was noted after 4 weeks of treatment. The increase in IGF-I values was not statistically significant in the remaining women. In addition, treatment was not successful in these women."

"IGF-I concentration seems to be of prognostic value as far as the response of breast tissue to estrogen stimulation is concerned. If IGF-I levels do not increase within 1 month, treatment should be discontinued. If IGF-I values do increase, this indicates that treatment is likely to be successful and can therefore be continued."

GH stimulates IGF-1 and most its effects appear to be mediated through IGF-1. Estrogen when circulating through the liver, downregulates (reduces) IGF-1 production as opposed to androgen which upregulates it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormonal_breast_enhancement

"Systemic administration of GH or IGF-1 causes mammary hyperplasia (enlargement of the mammary glands) in animals.[21] For example, in a study of aged female rhesus macaques, treatment with GH alone, IGF-1 alone, and the combination of GH and IGF-1, were found to produce mammary gland hyperplasia and increased mammary gland size and epithelial proliferation by 2-fold, 3- to 4-fold, and 4- to 5-fold, respectively, changes that were directly correlated with serum concentrations of GH and IGF-1.[22][23][24] Accordingly, research has found that girls with growth hormone deficiency (GHD) who are treated with GH experience accelerated breast growth[25] and that boys with GHD treated with GH sometimes experience gynecomastia.[26] Moreover, IGF-1 levels and activity have been found to be correlated with breast volume in the female general population.[10]"

But,

"In women with Laron syndrome, where the growth hormone receptor (GHR) is defective and insensitive to GH and serum IGF-1 levels are very low, puberty, including breast development, is delayed, although full sexual maturity is always eventually reached.[27] Moreover, breast development and size are normal (albeit delayed) in spite of GH/IGF-1 axis insufficiency"

You can find lots of other useful information on this page but check references, as always.

I believe both estrogen and progesterone upregulate (increase) GH receptors in breast tissue. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_development

"The master regulators of breast development are the steroid hormones, estrogen and progesterone, growth hormone (GH), mostly via its secretory product, insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1), and prolactin.[1]"

Etc.

Enjoy :) and glad you're experiencing good results. Goes to show you that we are all different and some may do very well on low levels of E, despite higher T.

Also, this might interest you although how they define feminization and androgenization is flawed in some ways:

J Natl Med Assoc. 1992 Mar; 84(3): 241–250.

"Despite similar degrees of feminization in all 40 individuals in whom hormonal studies were performed, variable suppression of serum testosterone concentrations was present. Based on their testosterone concentrations while on feminizing hormone therapy, the transsexual inmates could be divided into three groups. In Group I (the "suppressed" group), the serum testosterone concentrations were markedly depressed (less than 10 ng/dL); in Group II (the "non-suppressed" group), the values of testosterone were normal (446 to 1072 ng/dL); and in Group III (the "intermediate" group), the testosterone values were between those of the suppressed group and the nonsuppressed group. We speculate that feminizing hormone therapy may induce the development of a state of target hormone resistance to testosterone that results in similar degrees of feminization independent of the circulating concentrations of testosterone."
WOW! What a wealth of information, thank you SO much, incredibly helpful!
  •  

KayXo

Quote from: Jean24 on December 02, 2016, 04:18:32 PMpart of it does have to do with genetics with genes favoring large breasts being more present in individuals who are female as far as their chromosomes go

Any studies supporting this assertion?

QuoteBut a big part is HGH, in being able to reach tanner stage 5.

Current Concepts in Transgender Identity, by Dallas Denny, 1998

« Progesterone activity also allows the full maturity of the breast and nipple development (maturity to Tanner 5 stage requires progesterone (unpublished Prior, 1989))"

From a report coming from a Clinic in Vancouver where hundreds of transsexuals have been treated since 1986.

"Progesterone appears to be necessary for maturation of the areolae and nipples to Tanner stage 5."


I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Jean24

#5
Quote from: KayXo on December 02, 2016, 04:54:47 PM
Any studies supporting this assertion?

Current Concepts in Transgender Identity, by Dallas Denny, 1998

« Progesterone activity also allows the full maturity of the breast and nipple development (maturity to Tanner 5 stage requires progesterone (unpublished Prior, 1989))"

From a report coming from a Clinic in Vancouver where hundreds of transsexuals have been treated since 1986.

"Progesterone appears to be necessary for maturation of the areolae and nipples to Tanner stage 5."

Yeah it's out there. As far as genetics go, breast size is dependent on the prevalence these genes and the gene expression/silencing as well. They don't matter for men and because of that, men don't often express these genes. Many of these genes also lead to increased chance of breast cancer which is part of the reason why women get it at a rate much higher than men.
Trying to take it one day at a time :)
  •  

Brooke

Quote from: KayXo on December 02, 2016, 04:54:47 PM
Any studies supporting this assertion?

Current Concepts in Transgender Identity, by Dallas Denny, 1998

« Progesterone activity also allows the full maturity of the breast and nipple development (maturity to Tanner 5 stage requires progesterone (unpublished Prior, 1989))"

From a report coming from a Clinic in Vancouver where hundreds of transsexuals have been treated since 1986.

"Progesterone appears to be necessary for maturation of the areolae and nipples to Tanner stage 5."

Do you know if it says anything about when progesterone should be introduced?
  •  

KayXo

Quote from: Jean24 on December 02, 2016, 07:50:59 PM
Yeah it's out there. As far as genetics go, breast size is dependent on the prevalence these genes and the gene expression/silencing as well. They don't matter for men and because of that, men don't often express these genes. Many of these genes also lead to increased chance of breast cancer which is part of the reason why women get it at a rate much higher than men.

It would be worthwhile to cite the actual studies/research you base yourself on to make these assertions.

Quote from: Brooke on December 02, 2016, 09:59:41 PM
Do you know if it says anything about when progesterone should be introduced?

I don't think so. This matter is subject to debate, even amongst doctors. Progesterone is somewhat anti-estrogenic but this could be outweighed by its several benefits on breasts and other tissues (brain, skin, fat). In ciswomen, at puberty, estrogen first increases followed by an increase in progesterone several years later, during the second half of the menstrual cycle when ovulation starts.

I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

LiliFee

Quote from: Brooke on December 02, 2016, 01:11:11 PM
I've been reading some literature on the effects of Intermittent Fasting (IF) on the body, and have found that it can increase human growth hormone levels, increase Testosterone, and decrease Estrogen.



Oh no, there is a reason growth-hormone plummets after a certain age. If it were there, so would the chance of cancer. It is meant to decrease over age.

–  γνῶθι σεαυτόν  –

"Know then thyself, presume not God to scan, The proper study of mankind is Man"
  •  

Jean24

Trying to take it one day at a time :)
  •  

Magicka

I think hgh decreases about 1% each year after the age of 26 and then by about 2% every year after the age of 30. Supposedly some treatments are out to increase hgh but not to sure how reliable they are. I have heard that one of the treatments forgot the name was linked to some mad cow disease cases because they got the hormone from cows infected with prions or some such. Sounds scary! :'(


I'd stick with progesterone and estrogen being balance correctly to boost hgh. Also, getting plenty of sleep every night the important deep sleep(recovery mode) releases hgh so make sure you rest well. Lastly, exercising specifically resistance training can stimulated hgh. Don't worry though resistance training can be like doing squats and other lower body primarily while only slightly focusing on the upper body so you don't have to be scared of bulking up your upper body. 
  •  

Drexy/Drex

Yes good sleep and lower body work squats activates  the pituitary  gland to increase hgh
Myself i used hgh in conjunction  with testosterone  for a couple of years  i noticed my stamina and recovery improved significantly
When i start hrt mtf i will use it again after reading the above
I didnt notice any gyno  from its use although i have had estrogen  spikes that have given me some and using another compound  i got prolactin  induced gyno ....including  lactation
Regardless of hgh and ftm hormonal  response  it is worth going to an endo and just topping up your level to that of a 30 yr old keep doing that and you will age much more gracefully  and with less illness....in fact theres no need to go to an endo as most rejuvenation  clinics can test you and prescribe
Everything
  Louder
   Than
Everything
    Else
  •  

KayXo

Quote from: Jean24 on December 03, 2016, 06:37:19 PM
http://www.livescience.com/21433-breast-size-genetic-markers.html

Association (presence of genes and breast size/cancer) does not imply causality. Additionally, nowhere is it stated these genes are not present in individuals born physically male.

Quote from: Magicka on December 03, 2016, 09:46:03 PM
I'd stick with progesterone and estrogen being balance correctly to boost hgh.

Estrogen and progesterone do appear to increase GH receptor expression in breast tissue but estradiol, especially orally and in high doses, tends to downregulates IGF-1 which is responsible for much of GH's actions.

Quote from: markie on December 04, 2016, 07:29:31 AM
Myself i used hgh in conjunction  with testosterone  for a couple of years  i noticed my stamina and recovery improved significantly

When taking two things concomitantly, it is impossible to verify which of the two is responsible for what. T could have been responsible for the effects. I read that T alone in men increases stamina and recovery. Also, androgens appear to upregulate IGF-1 production, in contrast to estrogen.

QuoteRegardless of hgh and ftm hormonal  response  it is worth going to an endo and just topping up your level to that of a 30 yr old keep doing that and you will age much more gracefully  and with less illness....in fact theres no need to go to an endo as most rejuvenation  clinics can test you and prescribe

One must be wary of potential side-effects from taking GH like increased cancer risk, insulin resistance, carpal tunnel syndrome, joint/muscle pain, edema and even acromegaly. Please see a doctor. :)
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Jean24

Quote from: KayXo on December 04, 2016, 10:14:46 AM
Association (presence of genes and breast size/cancer) does not imply causality. Additionally, nowhere is it stated these genes are not present in individuals born physically male.

We're not even really talking about the same thing anymore. I'm talking about gene prevalence and gene expression in individuals who are genotypically male. You are talking about the very existence of these genes in individuals who are phenotypically male.

Trying to take it one day at a time :)
  •