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cycling hormones

Started by Emtobe, December 17, 2016, 12:12:13 PM

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Emtobe

So I am considering cycling my hormones. Presently I am just on Estradot patches, I have asked repeatedly to be put on Progesterone as well, but doctors both in the UK and Germany have refused. Likewise they refused to put me on tablets instead of patches. So I guess my question is whether it's possible to cycle with just patches, and second whether I should try and get hold of Progesterone as well?

I have been on hormones for more than 10 years, and have had surgery. I guess I am just trying to feel more normal and have a cycle.
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KayXo

The high number of cycles in women today is considered abnormal by some and a result of modernization.

http://gladwell.com/john-rock-s-error/

"the modern way of living represents an extraordinary change in female biology. Women are going out and becoming lawyers, doctors, presidents of countries. They need to understand that what we are trying to do isn't abnormal. It's just as normal as when someone hundreds of years ago had menarche at seventeen and had five babies and had three hundred fewer menstrual cycles than most women have today. The world is not the world it was."

"Dogon farmers, in many respects, live much as people of that region have lived since antiquity. Strassmann wanted to construct a precise reproductive profile of the women in the tribe, in order to understand what female biology might have been like in the millennia that preceded the modern age. In a way, Strassmann was trying to answer the same question about female biology that John Rock and the Catholic Church had struggled with in the early sixties: what is natural? Only, her sense of "natural" was not theological but evolutionary. In the era during which natural selection established the basic patterns of human biology–the natural history of our species–how often did women have children? How often did they menstruate? When did they reach puberty and menopause? What impact did breast-feeding have on ovulation?"

"Among the Dogon, she found, a woman, on average, has her first period at the age of sixteen and gives birth eight or nine times. From menarche, the onset of menstruation, to the age of twenty, she averages seven periods a year. Over the next decade and a half, from the age of twenty to the age of thirty-four, she spends so much time either pregnant or breast-feeding (which, among the Dogon, suppresses ovulation for an average of twenty months) that she averages only slightly more than one period per year. Then, from the age of thirty-five until menopause, at around fifty, as her fertility rapidly declines, she averages four menses a year. All told, Dogon women menstruate about a hundred times in their lives. (Those who survive early childhood typically live into their seventh or eighth decade.) By contrast, the average for contemporary Western women is somewhere between three hundred and fifty and four hundred times."

Second, some suspect the increased number of menstrual cycles accounts for the increase in breast cancer risk.

http://gladwell.com/john-rock-s-error/

"some of the risks that go with the benefits of a woman getting educated and not getting pregnant all the time are breast cancer and ovarian cancer"

Lancet. 2012 Jun 23;379(9834):2322-3.

"In 1713, Italian physician Bernadino Ramazzini1 noted that
nuns had an extremely high incidence of that "accursed pest",
breast cancer. Today, the world's 94 790 nuns still pay a terrible
price for their chastity because they have a greatly increased risk
of breast, ovarian, and uterine cancers: the hazards of their nulliparity.
Fraumeni and colleagues2 compiled  data for cancer mortality rates in
31 658 Catholic nuns in the USA between 1900 and 1954, and showed
that nuns had an increased probability of dying from breast,
ovarian, and uterine cancer compared with the general
population (figure). »

"MacMahon and colleagues3 were
the first investigators to make a formal link with parity,
showing, in 1970, that parous women had a decreased
risk of breast cancer compared with nulliparous women.
Parous women receive further protection if they have
their first child at a young age, bear more children, and
if they breastfeed. »

« Nulliparous women have a higher number of ovulatory
menstrual cycles than do parous women because of the
absence of pregnancy and lactation, and an increased
number of cycles affects cancer risk.
"

Increased number of cycles = increased frequency of cell proliferation = increased risk of a mutation arising

Theoretical at this point but plausible.

Also, cycles increase the risk of mood swings and I have never come across the finding that cycling vs continuous produces better results.

Regarding the use of bio-identical progesterone, over the years, I have amassed extensive documentation and research findings confirming its negligible side-effects, several positive effects and showing that it does indeed promote extra growth in the breast tissue. If you want, I can send you this information privately and you can show it to your doctors.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Emtobe

KayXo, with the greatest respect, I am looking for practical advice for cycling my hormones. Not a debate on whether cycling is 'natural'.

On a separate note however the argument you seem to be making is decidedly weak and I really cannot see much evidence for your claims beyond the extremely dodgy links you posted. Call me old fashioned, but when it comes to anything medical or scientific I want to see hard evidence. That being proper reseach and Peer review. Blog posts without even a single reference to a scientific study or reputable journal don't cut it.

Cis women have a cycle, I am a woman and I just want to feel like my body is doing something close to what it would have done had I not been born trans.
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KayXo

Quote from: Emtobe on December 17, 2016, 05:09:39 PM
On a separate note however the argument you seem to be making is decidedly weak and I really cannot see much evidence for your claims beyond the extremely dodgy links you posted. Call me old fashioned, but when it comes to anything medical or scientific I want to see hard evidence. That being proper reseach and Peer review. Blog posts without even a single reference to a scientific study or reputable journal don't cut it.

I think the idea that women had far less menstrual cycles in the past than now makes lots of sense and is corroborated by studies of primitive societies (mentioned in the first link) that live the way much of our human ancestors used to live.

Also, you do not mention the second reference I provided, a scientific/medical article published in the Lancet in 2012 which states that an "increased number of cycles affects cancer risk".

Interestingly, transwomen rarely, if ever, cycle their hormones and the risk of breast cancer does not increase in this population as confirmed by a recent study that I can provide, if you so require.

These are speculations, of course, based on associations where no cause and effect can be established but nonetheless, food for thought (at least, I think so). I just felt it was pertinent and useful information. I apologize for my intervention and wish you the best of luck in your endeavors, truly. :)

QuoteCis women have a cycle, I am a woman and I just want to feel like my body is doing something close to what it would have done had I not been born trans.

To each their own. I'd personally rather skip the potential risks associated with an increased number of cycles and avoid the mood swings. Also, I find it easier to just take the same dose every day or every few days/months (patches, injections, pellets) vs. always having to remember what day of the cycle I'm on and what dose to take or not to take. In all my years reading about cycling hormones in transsexual women, I have yet to read of any study, of any doctor, of any person reporting or suggesting an advantage/benefit. There is no hard evidence in favor of it except maybe that ciswomen do indeed have more breast development than our population, on average but that could simply be due to other factors, namely genes, starting puberty at an early age when growth hormone levels are higher and going through pregnancy when levels of various hormones (including growth hormone) are VERY high.

End of discourse. I'll let you be. I can empathize with the need to experience what ciswomen experience (lactating is another one!). Just had to express my thoughts about this matter.  :-\ :-X
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Emtobe

Quote from: KayXo on December 17, 2016, 11:11:01 PM
End of discourse. I'll let you be. I can empathize with the need to experience what ciswomen experience (lactating is another one!). Just had to express my thoughts about this matter.  :-\ :-X

Finally, thank you so much for deciding to end the discourse you started. Now you have voiced your opinion, one I might add I didn't ask for in the original post, can I please get some responces to my initial question? All I want is some sensible advice as to whether it is practicable to cycle hornones when on patches, I do not need a lecture on the ins and outs of someone elses opinions on 'cycling'. I am perfcetly capable of making my own decisions.
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Brenda3156

I just follow the advice of my doctor. I have one of her business cards and can call her anytime I want if I have questions. The way I look at it, they are the ones with the knowledge and experience, so take advantage of it. They have probably seen hundreds or thousands of cases and should have a good idea of what works and what doesn't. That's how I have proceeded with HRT and I have been very happy with the results. Good luck.
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kelly_aus

Quote from: Emtobe on December 18, 2016, 03:45:57 AM
Finally, thank you so much for deciding to end the discourse you started. Now you have voiced your opinion, one I might add I didn't ask for in the original post, can I please get some responces to my initial question? All I want is some sensible advice as to whether it is practicable to cycle hornones when on patches, I do not need a lecture on the ins and outs of someone elses opinions on 'cycling'. I am perfcetly capable of making my own decisions.

No, it's not practical.. It's also completely unknown what effects it will have - which is why there are so few who do it.
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sarah1972

I have never heard of estrogen being cycled. Progesterone yes.

Odd that your doctor insists on patches and will not do progesterone. Did he give you any explanation why? Only reasonable explanation could be side effects or increased risk for long term damage (like DVT or stroke).

Estrogen has a fairly short half life (depending on type between 3 and 8 hours) so not putting up a patch will have a pretty instant effect. I am just not sure if you would get the results you want or if you would just get pretty bad dysphoria.

Sorry that I can't help more.


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Dena

Post surgical, I cycled for about 24 years. It was pretty standard practice and with the blockers, chemically you are more or less post surgical. As for the difference it made, I wasn't fully developed and with the reduction in dosage to a quarter transition dosage, I had almost no breast development. It's only in the last year that I have come to understand how half baked my body was as the result of that treatment plan.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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