Who thinks about this sort of thing?

[RavenMoon]

I never think about gender roles. I never did. I'm just me.

I've just always known I was supposed to be female.

My main preoccupation with being trans in how I look. All my dysphoria is centered around my face. [emoji53]


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[AshleyUSMC]

Something that distinguishes cis thought patterns from trans though patterns is that a cis person might think:
"I wonder if I'm trans."
"No I don't think so."
"Okay."

The trans version of the same thought is:
"I wonder if I'm trans."
"No I don't think so."
"I wonder if I'm trans."
"Hell, no."
"I wonder if I'm trans."
"No way."
"I wonder if I'm trans."
"No I don't think so."
...
(until)
"Hmm, maybe I am."

If the answer were truly no, we wouldn't keep asking the question.

I absolutely love this example! Its 100% true. When i was questioning my self if i was trans or not, i came across this video on youtube, and the psychiatrist was saying "if youre questioning yourself if youre trans or not, youre most likely trans because cis gendered people dont feel the need to question their gender identity.".

[TomTuttle]

Yep I think plenty of non trans people think about these things. Particularly women and men who can't fit into the macho expectations of society. Ive come onto this forum to just experimenting with the idea of trans as werid as that sounds, becahse I've always wanted to be a guy and hated my female gender role... But that doesn't really have much to do with my body or wanting to transition. So I find it likely that i am just one of those cis people who thinks about these things as you said. I don't have much of a problem with being physicalily female. If you arent trans but you just think about these these things I doesnt make you weird at all. For me of course it's quite easy to go about life dressed completely like a man and doing only male hobbies without sparking much hate. Some confusion, some getting looked down on by real girls, some homophobia, but nothing I can't handle as an adult. And only the occasional person actually thinking I'm trans. i imagine wearing a dress as a biologically male person and not committing fully to a trans identity is a lot harder.

[Michelle_P]

I absolutely love this example! Its 100% true. When i was questioning my self if i was trans or not, i came across this video on youtube, and the psychiatrist was saying "if youre questioning yourself if youre trans or not, youre most likely trans because cis gendered people dont feel the need to question their gender identity.".

Yup!  I've seen this one in action.  Questioning, and denying, questioning, and denying again, the whole "I'm not trans, I just want to try this out" argument.  I've seen how it ends, too.   

Most folks just never question their gender identity, or realize it could possibly be different from their assigned gender or physicality.  That's part of why most people have trouble understanding transgender people.  They are faced with us, an "outside context problem" with which they have no experience to extrapolate empathy from, and are confused by our existance.

I strongly suspect that anyone who questions their own gender identity at any time has a transgender component to their makeup.

Who thinks about this sort of thing?  Transgender people.

[AnneK]

I think about it frequently.  Let me tell you about myself.  Back when I was a kid, I used to browse through the lingerie section of department store catalogues.  I also used to "borrow" my sister's tights and stocking/garter belts.  As much as I wanted to wear those things, I was terrified someone would find out.  After I reached my late teens, I started buying pantyhose for myself.  Later on, I got into full cross dressing for going to fetish parties that happened twice a month.  While I have stopped going to those parties, I still wear bra, pantyhose and nail polish every day.  I have also long dreamed of having a sex change operation.  The woman who helped me with my cross dressing asked if I had considered a sex change.  I told her I had many, many times, but thought it was too extreme for me.  I also told her, if I had the operation, I'd have to be a lesbian, as I prefer women.  At her suggestion, I also had sex with men and enjoyed it, but I definitely prefer women.  I have also considered castration and nullification, as I am not 100% happy with being male.  So, I am clearly transgender to some degree.  I've often wished that one could choose to be male or female when they get up in the morning and have the body to match.   

[Artesia]

Intermittently, for years, I would go to bed and pray to wake up a woman or go to "magical" people/websites and ask them to cast a spell to transform me into a woman.  Never worked, then I would bury the thought, at least for a while.  Usually when life was going good, but eventually the old thoughts would creep back in and then I would sabotage myself somehow and the cycle would start over.  I fought it for decades, but I never thought then that this was what I should do, and even now have my doubts, despite not waking up in the mornings with the "damn I woke up" thought first thing.  I couldn't admit it, not even to myself, nor my first two psychiatrists.  I really don't know if I can call them that, the first was for one visit when I was a child, and the second was while in the service, and even thought I didn't feel right in my body I told him that I did, and only saw him a coupe times.  I might have saved myself a lot of pain had I been truthful to him all those years ago.

[AnneK]

@Aresia

Have you done anything to express your feminine side?  As I mentioned, I was into cross dressing for a few years and still wear "feminine" items as part of my every day attire.  I simply consider a bra and pantyhose to be my standard, daily wear.

As I mentioned, when I was a kid I was terrified someone would find out I wanted to wear lingerie.  This was back in the '60s, when such things were simply not mentioned, except in a derogatory manner.  These days, kids have so much more freedom in this respect, with parents and professionals helping them to determine which way to go, with dressing and eventually surgery.  I recently watched a show on the National Geographic channel about transgender people and wish these things had been available to me when I was young.  Incidentally, back then, I didn't want to be a girl.  I just wanted to wear stockings, tights etc.  It wasn't until my late teens that I started thinking about sex change etc..  What triggered that was a newspaper article I had read, about a couple where the husband had the surgery and became the wife's "sister".  Until then, I didn't know such a thing was possible.

[Dena]

This was back in the '60s, when such things were simply not mentioned, except in a derogatory manner.

The information was out there but the problem was it was very difficult to dig up. In 1963 I knew about John Hopkins and when I started college in 1970 I located every book on transsexualism in the ASU Library. It took a fixation to read anything I could get my hands on for a trace of information but I had one. Now days, it just takes a couple of searches with Google and you can come up with months of reading.

[AnneK]

Those things were no doubt covered in a clinical environment, but not in everyday life.  Even in a clinical environment, I recall reading about how some were forced into treatment to be "cured".

[Dena]

Yes, a member of our group received shock therapy for extreme depression but Christine Jorgensen was making the talk shows. Much of what I learned early on was in the news paper and magazines where the process of transitioning was explained. About the most off the wall thing I came across was Myra Breckinridge. I started therapy in 1973 and curing me was never mentioned. The therapist didn't have much knowledge about how to treat me but that was because it was all so new. Our group around 1980 had a nerd moment and we estimated the transsexual population to be around 60,000 based off the number of doctors preforming surgery and a guesstimate as to how many had been and were being treated.

[Denise]

Two weeks and counting, you must be excited. Just be yourself girl, you'll be awesome!

Excited is not the emotion I'm feeling.  It's relief with a ton of nervousness on the side.

For acquaintances that say congratulations, I smile and say thanks.  For real friends I say, "well I didn't hit the lottery, but thanks."

[Angela Drakken]

I never thought about it, until I was told I *had* to think about it because the way I acted, dressed, or moved was 'wrong' and 'people were going to judge me.' Suddenly my life became less about being myself, and mostly an awkward juggling act of 'if I do this like this, will my parents be disappointed in me and I'll be considered a freak? Are people going to hurt me?'

I think absolutely everyone thinks about this stuff, otherwise there wouldn't be such rigid societal expectations as to what would be regarded as 'homo' or 'weird' or 'perverse.' Parents wouldn't feel the compulsion to 'enforce' them on their children from a young age. Boys wear blue, girls wear pink. Girls get dolls, boys play with trucks. Any deviation from this must be weeded out and punished, and if they allow it, what does that mean about THEM as a parent or guardian?

OR even for normal hetero types, how long do you look in the change room before someone thinks you're weird? Do you look at all? If you don't look, do people think you're avoiding it because you're insecure and queer?
Whats the proper positioning in the urinals so no one thinks you're a sicko? (There are even books about this, as there actually IS a correct answer supposedly.)

TL;DR everyone thinks about it, whether openly or not, while they may or may not feel discomfort with it as we do.

[p]

I never thought about it, until I was told I *had* to think about it because the way I acted, dressed, or moved was 'wrong' and 'people were going to judge me.' Suddenly my life became less about being myself, and mostly an awkward juggling act of 'if I do this like this, will my parents be disappointed in me and I'll be considered a freak? Are people going to hurt me?'

Angela, I really appreciate that you brought up the phenomenon of gender policing! I totally relate to this description.

Even when I was very young, my gender was policed through restricting options for clothing and play activities; later on, my peers tried to re-enforce my (already forced) masculinity by trying to label me a "->-bleeped-<-." And then, having outmaneuvered the ->-bleeped-<--haters for a while by claiming gay identity, I found that my femininity, cross-dressing, and general unabashed flaminess was policed by many "mainstream" (read: privileged) gays who were attempting to promote a normative gay identity in order to shore up their own feelings that they really were "man enough." (FWIW, I agree that being gay doesn't mean you're not manly, but it's not necessary to reject femmes, flamers, gender non-conforming and trans people in order to do so.)

Now, I am exploring trans identity, and I see that many folks are interested in policing others' genders in the service of building up their own identities and appearances (e.g., accusing people of " ->-bleeped-<-" or making other "you're not trans enough" type of claims). Although I would say I have encountered very little of this here at Susan's--a tribute to this site and the great community here. I can't help but think that the definition of transgender that this site promotes, which has room for those who identify in many different ways (not excluding cross-dressers, or nonbinary people, etc.), has contributed to the welcoming and nonjudgmental atmosphere.

[Artesia]

@Aresia

Have you done anything to express your feminine side?  As I mentioned, I was into cross dressing for a few years and still wear "feminine" items as part of my every day attire.  I simply consider a bra and pantyhose to be my standard, daily wear.

To be honest...no, I never did any real crossdressing.  I did put on my mothers Heels a few times, and got in trouble for it.  I was a bit of a coward, so I wouldn't do anything that would get me in trouble if caught.  I did look at the magazines/sales adds at the clothing, but it was close enough to puberty that nothing was said about it, I guess it's normal for guys to look?  That's probably why I'm still so afraid to tell my family.  I did put on women's lingerie a few times, but only with a select few women prior to....relations.  My wife has been real helpful in increasing my courage, and will help with my transition, but she is not happy with it, but still loves me.

[Dena]

Now, I am exploring trans identity, and I see that many folks are interested in policing others' genders in the service of building up their own identities and appearances (e.g., accusing people of " ->-bleeped-<-" or making other "you're not trans enough" type of claims). Although I would say I have encountered very little of this here at Susan's--a tribute to this site and the great community here. I can't help but think that the definition of transgender that this site promotes, which has room for those who identify in many different ways (not excluding cross-dressers, or nonbinary people, etc.), has contributed to the welcoming and nonjudgmental atmosphere.

If you view TOS 9 and Standard Terms you will discover the site policy on these matters. As staff, I have strict orders to enforce these rules and if I don't, somebody else will. My powers include placing ban should I encounter somebody well out of bounds. If you find an issue like this in the site, hit the report to moderator button to the right of the post and a staff member WILL handle the issue. These are the standards that Susan has set for the site from day one and violations aren't permitted.

[AnneK]

@Artesia

It's nice that your wife supports you.  I don't think my ex would have.  While she liked to see me in stockings or pantyhose, she made it clear that's as far as I could go.  You can start with small things.  For example, go for a manicure and get some coloured polish.  It's easy to do and easy to take off when you want.  You might also try wearing pantyhose with shorts, gender neutral clothes etc..  It's often the first step that's hardest.  Once that's out of the way, it becomes easier as you go.  I'd expect you'd have to dress fully as a woman, as part of your transition, so the sooner you start, the better.  I'm sure your wife could help.

Another thing, find a shop where men are welcome and see what you can find.  I've been fortunate over the years in that I found several shops where I could try on things to buy.  Most recently, I've been buying my bras from a bra shop that's happy to have men as customers.  In fact, being comfortable with fitting men is a requirement for anyone who wants to work there.  Again, your wife may be able to help.

I assume your wife's issues are more with losing a husband, than gaining a girlfriend/wife.  I have long been interested in what happens with couples.  In some cases it works out well and others it doesn't.

[p]

If you view TOS 9 and Standard Terms you will discover the site policy on these matters. As staff, I have strict orders to enforce these rules and if I don't, somebody else will. My powers include placing ban should I encounter somebody well out of bounds. If you find an issue like this in the site, hit the report to moderator button to the right of the post and a staff member WILL handle the issue. These are the standards that Susan has set for the site from day one and violations aren't permitted.

I am definitely aware of the TOS and Standard Terms--I believe these policies and definitions are part of why Susan's Place feels so supportive, especially to me as someone at the early stages of questioning my gender. Thanks so much for your important work, Dena!

[AnneK]

are part of why Susan's Place feels so supportive, especially to me as someone at the early stages of questioning my gender

That's why I'm here too.  I've had these feelings for many years, but never discussed them with anyone, other than a woman who helped me with cross dressing several (25?) years ago.  It's nice to have a place where I we can discuss these things with like minded people.  I just want to explore what my options are, including experiences and opinions of others here.  I just have no desire to die as an intact male.

I have long known I was trans, but I'm now thinking more and more about doing something about it.

[Artesia]

@Artesia

It's nice that your wife supports you.  I don't think my ex would have.  While she liked to see me in stockings or pantyhose, she made it clear that's as far as I could go.  You can start with small things.  For example, go for a manicure and get some coloured polish.  It's easy to do and easy to take off when you want.  You might also try wearing pantyhose with shorts, gender neutral clothes etc..  It's often the first step that's hardest.  Once that's out of the way, it becomes easier as you go.  I'd expect you'd have to dress fully as a woman, as part of your transition, so the sooner you start, the better.  I'm sure your wife could help.

Another thing, find a shop where men are welcome and see what you can find.  I've been fortunate over the years in that I found several shops where I could try on things to buy.  Most recently, I've been buying my bras from a bra shop that's happy to have men as customers.  In fact, being comfortable with fitting men is a requirement for anyone who wants to work there.  Again, your wife may be able to help.

I assume your wife's issues are more with losing a husband, than gaining a girlfriend/wife.  I have long been interested in what happens with couples.  In some cases it works out well and others it doesn't.

Oh, I thought you meant in the past, sorry.  I have always dressed in what I now know was a gender neutral style, jeans and t-shirt.  Ties always made me feel like I was choking, even when I was younger.  A choker necklace doesn't have that effect.  I wear a skirt and women's shirts, at home, on Saturday's and/or Sunday's every week now.  I wear a bra and women's underwear any chance I get, but never at work.  My Wife doesn't usually notice I'm wearing them until I undress at the end of the day, my Therapist and Doctors say haven't noticed either.  I'm thinking of wearing them at work soonish, going down the stairs hurts my fledgling boobs from the bouncing.  I wear baggy shirts and am a bit overweight so nobody has noticed so far, at least that they have said.  I have a couple pairs of High Heel Shoes, one is a 6" sandal type heel, which is now a hair to big(sad face) the other is a 4.5" heel.  I was able to walk in those, with no problems, from the moment I put them on, my first pair was the 6" heel ones.  Sorry, I love High Heel Shoes, and I have my eye on a pair of heeled boots, but I can't find them in a size 12 wide or a possibly a touch larger.  My sandal heels are size 13 the other pair is a 12 wide, so size 12 is where I look to start but know that it could be larger or smaller depending on he company.