Sorry, I'm stuck on gendering issues

[Denise]

So I'm at the stage of transition where I'm trying to understand gendering.  My question is: How often do CIS people get mis-gendered?

Forget the really feminine or masculine (top and bottom 10% on the gender appearance scale) people, just middle of the road people.

I'm assuming once maybe twice per week?


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[AlyssaJ]

I don't think it's that common, in fact except for those with a very androgynous appearance I think most CIS people are almost never mis-gendered.  I know my wife has never been.  I was called ma'am one time when I was much younger, skinny as a rail and had no facial hair.  However it was from the back so I can't really say what would have happened if they had seen my face first.

[Kylo]

It does happen, but usually because of the style of clothing and hair people wear or maybe because they look young before sexual dimorphism kicks in.

[Sophia Sage]

So I'm at the stage of transition where I'm trying to understand gendering.  My question is: How often do CIS people get mis-gendered?

Forget the really feminine or masculine (top and bottom 10% on the gender appearance scale) people, just middle of the road people.

I'm assuming once maybe twice per week?

Middle of the road cis people probably don't ever get misgendered.

I know two lesbians who got misgendered -- one with a bulky frame, short hair, and a deep voice.  The other purposefully grew her chin hair out, and was completely flat-chested.  This happened 3 or 4 times in their lives, total.

One man I knew get misgendered on the phone -- he had a high voice.  It happened about once a month, working at a call center.

This is out of the thousands of people that I've met over the years.

No, this is not something that generally happens.

[Ms Grace]

It happens but not all that often. And I suspect that the cis people who are misgendered, especially if it bothers them, often take steps with their appearance to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[TransAm]

Of all of my friends and family members with whom I've discussed this issue, none of them had ever had it happen to them. I don't think it's a common issue by any means and likely only occurs semi-regularly in cases of extreme androgyny or when someone is really putting a ton of effort into presenting as the opposite gender (and then it's spotty at best).
I just know I got a whole lot of 'deer in the headlights' looks when I said anything similar to, "Well, have you ever been misgendered?".

[bluepaint]

just to add, there have been incidents reported regarding the bathroom issues in NC where some cis women were asked to show IDs bc they were thought to be trans!


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[KathyLauren]

just to add, there have been incidents reported regarding the bathroom issues in NC where some cis women were asked to show IDs bc they were thought to be trans!

My cisgender female neighbour has been ejected from a public washroom because her butch lesbian look wasn't female enough.  And this was in Canada, not North Carolina!

[Devlyn]

Long before I realized that I was transgender, people were always calling me miss or ma'am. I'd get pissed off and tell them "It's sir". I know now that it helped prepare me. People see what they see. It shouldn't matter to you. 

Hugs, Devlyn

[Sophia Sage]

Long before I realized that I was transgender, people were always calling me miss or ma'am. I'd get pissed off and tell them "It's sir". I know now that it helped prepare me. People see what they see. It shouldn't matter to you. 

If it didn't matter, it wouldn't be gender dysphoria, would it?

I think it's inappropriate to say what "should" or "shouldn't" matter to someone.  Emotions are generated subconsciously, there's no reason to shame someone for what they feel.

[Devlyn]

I'm not trying to shame anyone. It is an immutable fact that it shouldn't matter to you what someone else thinks. Ask any African American who no longer sits at the back of the bus.

I was just adding my voice as someone who was cis AND misgendered. That's what the topic is about. 

Hugs, Devlyn

[DaniMack45]

I have always been miss-gendered on the telephone. I think that because I have a soft quite high pitched voice, for a male (with no discernible accent) I'm always called Mrs.... first. I've never found it insulting. In fact most people that I have met say that i have a lovely telephone voice and manner.

Dani.

[Sophia Sage]

I'm not trying to shame anyone. It is an immutable fact that it shouldn't matter to you what someone else thinks.

I wouldn't call that an immutable fact, Devlyn.  That's an opinion.  I don't doubt you're not trying to shame anyone, but I do think you're inadvertently doing so anyway.

For some people, it matters a great deal how we're gendered.  There's no "should" or "shouldn't" about it.  It either matters, or it doesn't, and I don't think we have any control about whether it matters or not -- in the sense of what kind of emotional reaction being misgendered can generate.  If you're speaking from a position of philosophical idealism, then yeah, sure, but we don't live in a philosophically ideal world, it's a messy material world full of spontaneous emotions that we have to live in, and we have to manage that accordingly.

To me, it mattered a great deal; being misgendered triggered an unbearable amount of dysphoria for me.  Now, do I wish that wasn't the case?  Of course, my life would have been a lot easier.  But emotions precede conscious thought.  We can't will them away, and attempts to repress them just delay them bursting out later.  For me, it took full transition to receive female gendering from all quarters, and it's this that made the dysphoria go away and made me truly happy and not an emotional zombie.  This is rooted in my particular experiece: I identify on the binary, as female, so of course it mattered to me.  If it doesn't matter to you it's because your experience is different, you have different needs, a different identity, and that's totally fine, but there's no one-size-fits-all when it comes to how we approach our needs when gender identity is concerned.  I don't think we can make an overarching statement about what "matters" (or not) when it comes to this.

So, to me, your statement that "it shouldn't matter to you" isn't directed to someone who no longer sits in the back of the bus, but to someone who had to sit at the back of the bus, back in the day.  And of course that mattered (rightly) a very great deal.  Imagine someone being told, in this day and age, to go back and sit at the back of the bus -- how would that go down?  Most of us do not live in solipsistic island bubbles (though of course for at least a few that's going to work out just fine).

Finally, obviously, I think what I previously said mattered to you, it must have, or you wouldn't have offered a rebuttal.  So for most people, in general, what other people think is going to matter, because what other people think is going to mediate interactions and relationships, and social life can often have far-reaching consequences.  What other people think matters, to some extent... because other people matter, too.

[Maxillius]

I think I've been called "ma'am" once and that was on the phone and I was in middle school.

I should try to find that voice again...

[Devlyn]

I'm not trying to shame anyone. It is an immutable fact that it shouldn't matter to you what someone else thinks.

I wouldn't call that an immutable fact, Devlyn.  That's an opinion.  I don't doubt you're not trying to shame anyone, but I do think you're inadvertently doing so anyway.

For some people, it matters a great deal how we're gendered.  There's no "should" or "shouldn't" about it.  It either matters, or it doesn't, and I don't think we have any control about whether it matters or not -- in the sense of what kind of emotional reaction being misgendered can generate.  If you're speaking from a position of philosophical idealism, then yeah, sure, but we don't live in a philosophically ideal world, it's a messy material world full of spontaneous emotions that we have to live in, and we have to manage that accordingly.

To me, it mattered a great deal; being misgendered triggered an unbearable amount of dysphoria for me.  Now, do I wish that wasn't the case?  Of course, my life would have been a lot easier.  But emotions precede conscious thought.  We can't will them away, and attempts to repress them just delay them bursting out later.  For me, it took full transition to receive female gendering from all quarters, and it's this that made the dysphoria go away and made me truly happy and not an emotional zombie.  This is rooted in my particular experiece: I identify on the binary, as female, so of course it mattered to me.  If it doesn't matter to you it's because your experience is different, you have different needs, a different identity, and that's totally fine, but there's no one-size-fits-all when it comes to how we approach our needs when gender identity is concerned.  I don't think we can make an overarching statement about what "matters" (or not) when it comes to this.

So, to me, your statement that "it shouldn't matter to you" isn't directed to someone who no longer sits in the back of the bus, but to someone who had to sit at the back of the bus, back in the day.  And of course that mattered (rightly) a very great deal.  Imagine someone being told, in this day and age, to go back and sit at the back of the bus -- how would that go down?  Most of us do not live in solipsistic island bubbles (though of course for at least a few that's going to work out just fine).

Finally, obviously, I think what I previously said mattered to you, it must have, or you wouldn't have offered a rebuttal.  So for most people, in general, what other people think is going to matter, because what other people think is going to mediate interactions and relationships, and social life can often have far-reaching consequences.  What other people think matters, to some extent... because other people matter, too.

First things first, I offer an apology to anyone offended by my post. It was not my intent. My point is that learning not to worry about what others think (since it's out of my control anyway) has made life rather easy. It's offered as helpful advice. 

Hugs, Devlyn

[bluepaint]

If it didn't matter, it wouldn't be gender dysphoria, would it?

I think it's inappropriate to say what "should" or "shouldn't" matter to someone.  Emotions are generated subconsciously, there's no reason to shame someone for what they feel.

the definition: emotions are an natural instinctive state of mind deriving by ones circumstances , moods or relationships with others!
Emotions might be instinctive but certainly not just a creation of our subconscious where we have little or no control!  what we are taking about is facts , the interactions between individuals and how we react to that experience , no one knows how someone else thinks or should think, that subjective! 

Btw there are some, when they disagrees about a discussion they claim the discussion is philosophical idealism and that just being dismissive (which is disrespectful) bc they dont agree so they want to blow it off when sharing views and opinions on issues that affect us all is the point of having a forum to share thoughts, views and ideas!
This kind of behaviour is not only close minded but one sided in opinion! If you cant share your thoughts without criticizing someone else's for their views then maybe you shouldn't participate if your too immature to do so!  Blessings! Julie

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[Anne Blake]

I only recall being misgendered once in 67 years live cis and that was in Taipei. A waitress seeing me from behind (my hair was most of the way down my back) called me miss until I turned around and she could see my full beard. The poor dear was so embarrassed and apologized so profusely that I felt sorry for her. My wife has never to my knowledge been misgendered. - Anne

[bluepaint]

When I grew up I wore my hair long and dressed fairly androgynously, it only after puberty , the male "stuff" became a problem and plunged me deeply into the dysphoria and although I was aware of my situation when I was young ( knowing I felt like girl but born a boy) it wasn't too bad and I liked being misgendered (obviously   ) but i think that goes for many of us since we weren't displaying secondary sex characteristics yet!
An interesting point, when I was studying life drawing in art school, we were taught the proportions of the human body and (this the interesting part) facially, what we find attractive is the same in both men and women, there are some measurable difference brought on by ongoing effects of hormones, but what we consider as "attractive", spacing of eyes, balanced features, are seen as attractive in both genders!  now, thats what we find attractive not what we associate as masculine or feminine!
With more young people being identified before puberty, the next generation will be mostly undetectable so issues about misgendering will not be an issue anymore and its really just us , now (as far as I see it, anyways) the question becomes "do I need to learn to deal with this better and not let what others think of me define me?" (no ones saying that being misgendered doesn't hurt or are being unaffected by it) but if we are to live our lives we cant let ourselves be crushed and rendered helpless by it if and when it happens to us! Its not being philosophical or idealist,  it a fact that trans women commit suicide bc of the dysphoria bc they are being misgendered! Blessings![emoji177] Julie


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[Sophia Sage]

First things first, I offer an apology to anyone offended by my post. It was not my intent. My point is that learning not to worry about what others think (since it's out of my control anyway) has made life rather easy. It's offered as helpful advice. 

Yes, getting to that point, if possible, is obviously highly desirable -- as you say, it makes things so much easier, and it's certainly helpful advice as such.  It's just that if I had been able to shrug off what other people think, I wouldn't have needed to transition, not in the way I structured it, that's for sure.

Now, if it isn't possible to elicit one's proper gendering despite one's best efforts, then it's absolutely vital to be able to figure out how to move through the world without one's social dysphoria being triggered.  I don't have any good tactics to offer on that account -- I was lucky enough to transition such that I'm always gendered female, so it isn't something I've had to deal with.

Emotions might be instinctive but certainly not just a creation of our subconscious where we have little or no control!  what we are taking about is facts, the interactions between individuals and how we react to that experience , no one knows how someone else thinks or should think, that subjective!

Sorry to disagree, but "instinct" is subconscious.  Neurological research and studies have demonstrated that emotions are happening (the body is reacting) before the conscious mind is aware of said emotions (Damasio, 1994).  It's pretty much a "fact" that our emotional responses are not something we can control.

What we can control is what we do or how we react after becoming aware of our emotional states, which unfortunately is something that will also happen after our embodied instincts have kicked in. For me, if the emotion is a negative one my response is to change my environment (my body, in particular) such that whatever triggered the negative emotion doesn't happen again.  And if the emotion is a positive one, I try to do whatever it took to trigger that emotion again.

Now, when it comes to how we're gendered, of course it's impossible to objectively know what other people think, but that said, I think we can infer pretty correctly from behavior.  If someone misgendered me, I'm pretty sure what they were thinking was that I was someone I'm really not.  Given my emotional reaction of dsyphoria at such misgendering, which became irrepressible after 30 years, I transitioned. Now, nearly two decades later, everyone genders me female, and that makes me very happy.

Btw there are some, when they disagrees about a discussion they claim the discussion is philosophical idealism and that just being dismissive (which is disrespectful) bc they dont agree so they want to blow it off when sharing views and opinions on issues that affect us all is the point of having a forum to share thoughts, views and ideas!
This kind of behaviour is not only close minded but one sided in opinion! If you cant share your thoughts without criticizing someone else's for their views then maybe you shouldn't participate if your too immature to do so!

Well, I can certainly be strident -- absolutely.  But I do think part of the value of discussion is challenging opinions we disagree with, and reading the differences people have with each other.  It's rare I disagree with Devlyn -- she's kind and progressive and open-minded, so I was just rather taken aback by what I perceived to be a blithe statement on her part.  Now I understand where she's coming from and the intention behind her words, so I hope it's all good.

By the way, I wouldb't call "philosophical idealism" some kind of derogatory epithet.  I'm rather philosophically idealistic when it comes to a lot of my ideas on how we construct categories and what it takes to change one's categorization, for example, which I find highly relevant to discussions of gender and transition, and in particular how to live a post-op life on the binary (which for me is predicated on a foundation of non-disclosure).  But I have no illusions that this is for everyone, or that it's the only way to be happy.

Yours,
Sophie

[bluepaint]

im not going to requote your opus Sophia but just to say that I put the dictionary definition of emotions up in my post right from the start , you can interpret as you wish and also to add, theres are hordes of studies by different universities and research centres regarding human neurology and some make certain claims and then another associates the same neurological reactions to some other factor in the brain so citing a particular article doesn't necessarily make your point any more tangible to me but thats fine we are allowed to have different opinions on what constitutes emotions! blessings!



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