Quote from: Nina_Ottawa on February 06, 2017, 01:59:44 PMYou're saying, and I can't believe I'm reading this, that one having made a decision to have GCS does it to pass in bed, while someone opting for facial reconstruction are the true transitions?
Pray tell me that's not what you're saying.
That's not what I'm saying, and I apologize for my perhaps blithe expressions and lack of clarity.
First, all transitions are true, regardless of what you do -- even if it's as little as a name change and a new wardrobe. Transition is simply a process of making changes in our lives to go from one place to another, at least in terms of social identity, as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't equate a surgical procedure with transition, though transitions typically incorporate them (for good reason).
Now, when I say that facial surgery was the "real sex-reassignment surgery," I mean just that -- with the emphasis on "reassignment." Because in our day-to-day lives, sex (or gender) gets assigned by everyone, to everyone. It happens automatically, subconsciously, and it's based primarily on facial features, closely followed by voice, and then overall body shape. How we are assigned on a social basis really doesn't have much if anything to do with what's between our legs, because our privates are kept private and are generally only seen "in bed" (narrative concerns and medical situations aside). Which is not to say that bottom surgery is done for the
purpose of passing in bed, but that the passing privilege it
confers is pretty much restricted to the bedroom (and perhaps some backwards state agencies).
(In general I don't like the "GCS" terminology, for I don't think we need surgery to "confirm" gender, let alone bottom surgery; gender is, to me, primarily constructed and confirmed through a combination social interaction and self-acceptance.)
Now, all this has to do with how other people see us. But then there's also how we see ourselves. It is so easy to misgender ourselves! And it's nice to say that all it takes is changing our thinking, but there's more to how our brains work than how we think. Most of what our brains do is not actually in our control. Brains operate mostly at the subconscious level, automatically and blindingly fast, not at the level of conscious thought. If we could stop misgendering ourselves simply by the fiat of will or through interior work alone, a lot of people probably wouldn't go for any kind of surgery, or transition for that matter. Why bother, if you can just rely on interiority?
But unfortunately, emotions precede conscious thought. Dysphoria comes unbidden, and it typically takes correcting material reality to alleviate it. So even with "passing easily" there can still be the impetus to have surgical correction, be it down below or upon one's face; this of course will vary among individuals. (Down below tends to end up being very important for how we gender ourselves, because it's part of our embodied material reality, and even if it's not shared it's still experienced every day. Like when we wake up in the morning, to when we go to sleep, and all the bathroom breaks in-between.)
Why transition if not to create congruence between interiority and exteriority?
QuoteAnd then, to go on an make a comment about my facial features? Ummm, I don't recall asking for an opinion. Who are you to say? I'm comfortable enough in my transition that what's inside me makes me passable, not the outside.
Again, my apologies.
I get it that in your personal experience, your interior work is what greatly facilitated the female gendering you receive, and I certainly agree that such interiority is essential. It's
necessary. But I disagree that it's
sufficient for most of us, because again "gender assignment" happens even before we initiate any social interactions with anyone, and that assignment is based first on physical sensory information, not from a measurement of our souls. I'm sorry, but I'm very much a materialist on this matter. Only a few people are lucky enough thanks to their initial embodiment to not need as many exterior procedures to elicit their needed gendering.
It's the same reason I advocate for beard removal and voice training. Because they matter when it comes to the gendering we'll elicit.
I think of it this way -- even ciswomen with the most difficult interiorities in the world, plagued with low self esteem and doubt and insecurity, whatever you can imagine, still get gendered correctly. At the same time, some women of transition with all the self-acceptance in the world can still get clocked, simply based on their embodiment, even those who get gendered properly 99% of the rest of the time. I'm sorry, but when it comes to gendering, material embodiment matters a great deal, and some embodiments will get misgendered regardless of what's on the inside.
Quote from: Nina_Ottawa on February 06, 2017, 02:53:07 PMI often wonder if sometimes FFS is seen as the magical solution to passing. how we see ourself is often different than how others perceive. We are our worst enemy in that we find faults.
Let's says someone hasn't spent RLE, yet goes for FFS, how do they know it was their looks?
RLE should be the catalyst for change.
FFS is a marvelous solution, but it's certainly not magic, nor is it the only solution. It's certainly not sufficient on its own, nor is it always necessary. Beard removal and a decent voice are more crucial, I think, and none of this is really any good without interior acceptance and a clear idea of one's deepest truths -- because there's no point in getting female gendering if you're still miserable on the inside.
But RLE can be problematic as a litmus test for discerning whether something like FFS will be of benefit or not. It kind of depends on how one goes about RLE in the first place. Like, for most people, it means going full-time pretty much all at once, which includes one's job. But too many times I've seen transitioners get caught flat-footed and losing their jobs, before even basic things like electrolysis has been completed, and now there's no money to pay for anything, and it's much more difficult to find gainful employment when you're visibly transgendered; sorry, the rest of the world still sucks when it comes to this.
When I transitioned, I compartmentalized work -- I didn't transition there until after my surgeries were complete, because I wasn't going to compromise my finances (lol, trust issues). In the rest of my life, though, I was full-time. And in new social situations, I had no problems passing. I'd like to say it was due to my own interior work, but frankly much more of it had to do with voice (primarily), electrolysis, an appropriate wardrobe, and having long hair. I knew this because I'd still get gendered correctly in situations where there was no opportunity for my personality to shine through, or when it shined "poorly" due to distress, fatigue, what have you.
Regardless of these positive experiences, I'd still get dysphoric in front of the mirror.
And I tell you, how the rest of the world started responding to me after facial surgery
changed. Like, I soon realized that before there had always been a "lag time" upon meeting someone, as if their brains were doing some extra checksums or something before assigning me "female." And there was suddenly more easiness from other people, particularly women, in my subsequent interactions. These changes manifested within two weeks of facial surgery (after the bruising was gone), despite the fact that
I still wasn't seeing it -- though I could "feel" it and I cried tears of joy the first time I took a shower, because I could feel the water pouring down my face in a different pattern than it used to. Maybe I had so many memories of my previous image in the mirror, or maybe I was too acutely aware of some lingering swelling, I don't know what, but I wasn't
seeing what other people were seeing, not until three, four months after the fact.
Anyways, how did I know I needed facial surgery? First, I started with my own dysphoria, but that should go without saying. More importantly, at least for conscious decision-making, I studied the
basis for the gamut of procedures that make up what's usually proposed for FFS. In particular, I looked at the sexually dimorphic differences in male and female skulls.
Upon understanding those differences, I realized they're pretty much as predictable as most other secondary sex characteristics. They're just not as blatantly obvious as things like breasts and beards and the pitch of one's voice or the presence of an adam's apple. In the vast majority of men and women, things like foreheads and jaws and chins pretty much fall into the camps of "definitely male" and "definitely female." That said, there's still quite a bit of variance, just as there is with pitch and breast size, and since we process faces as a gestalt it's the
preponderance of features that ultimately matters when it comes to that automatic gender assignment. For me, none of my bony features were in the female range, so I was always going to have the full battery of procedures done.
Because we look into people's eyes in most social interactions, I think the forehead is the most important facial feature (at least in terms of bony structures; beards are a dead giveaway). Strong brow-bossing is extremely rare in the female population. In the male population, on the other hand, there's more variance -- I knew a few guys with very little brow-bossing. It makes them look a bit femme, or at least less intimidating.
So... if Allie is dysphoric about her forehead, that's reason enough as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think she's seeing what's not there. From a physiological perspective, the projection of her forehead is in the male range, though mitigated by being relatively round and smooth so she isn't beset by the appearance of a "ridge" -- from head on, the projection is only noticeable from the shadowing across the bridge of her nose. The angle of her jaw, on the other hand, is strongly feminine, as is the tapering of her chin. Her nose is slightly on the feminine side. She's got great hair. The preponderance of features is "female" despite her forehead.
Obviously, she doesn't need it to pass, she's got enough going for her as it is. But that doesn't mean she wouldn't benefit from having the work done, at some point, from both a material perspective and a psychological one. By the same token, though, I'd say the same about bottom surgery, too.
