Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?

[Ypsf09]

Hello girls,

Please help me understand why so many girls go to him for FFS. I always thought his results were extremely subtle for my taste and in general for most male face structure to transform completely into a female one. He is also very expensive. My surgery quote was $60k for forehead, jaw, chin, nose, cheek implants and lip augmentation.


I just saw Stef Sanjati's whole FFS(from preop consult to post op week 3) on YouTube done by Dr Spiegel. She got Forehead, chin, jaw and lip done. What I found disturbing was that her forehead changed from being a masculine one to a androgynous one. Post op forehead stills seemed prominent, sloping and eyes still deepset. I am not sure if this is because she didn't get her nose done and that impacted the forehead feminization. And if that's the case, her surgeon should have warned about that in preop consultation so she might have considered rhinoplasty as well.


See her video below( fast forward to 17:25 if you don't want to watch the whole video)



I am happy that she is very happy with her forehead but I still see a heavy look in the eye due to the forehead.

As far as natural results go, I have seen some other surgeons that do aggressive work and still produce natural results.

Am I missing something because obviously he is extremely popular for FFS.

[cej]

I had surgery with Spiegel recently and came out with kind of an androgynous model face. With effort I can pass as a girl or a guy; I think it's attractive and natural and it's what I asked for so I'm happy. The nose work was particularly good. I think he can do more aggressive work but his defaults are conservative (especially on the forehead/orbital rims; I might go back and get more work done later).

VirtualFFS has an essay on "How feminine is feminine enough" that seems relevant to your question; I don't think I can link to it here, but you can google it.

It's probably better to pick a surgeon who prefers the aesthetic you want than to wrestle a surgeon into doing a look they aren't used to. I would recommend Deschamps-Braly if you want to obliterate your angular features and look like a completely different person.

[Ypsf09]

Thanks Cej for your response.

Agree if one wants a androgynous face and that's what the surgeon delivers then that's fair. But I doubt that's what most transgirl desire for. With Stef Sanjati, I think her goal was to be feminine and natural and she completely trusted her surgeons instincts in delivering that.

I had my forehead, nose and chin done by Dr Deschamps in April 2016 and yes the changes were not at all subtle. Though I am looking to get FFS again, I was very pleased with Dr Deschamps work and aesthetic.

[2cherry]

It is very difficult to see real world results...

Makeup, light, camera, lens distortion, and photoshop are making it difficult to see real world results and measure it properly. It would be best to post clinical before and after photographs. Even better, see someone in real life.

Problem also is proportion. If you remove too much jaw, the forehead looks bigger (think alien head). It all hangs together, sadly. So if you remove something, something else will look bigger or wider. It's very tricky, and so there is no cookie cutter method.

[Lady_Oracle]

Most cis women have an andro face without makeup & fem styled hair and so Spiegal pretty much delivers that for trans women. I mean very few cis women look naturally hyper fem. So in regards to your thread question, thats exactly why I'm guessing a lot of us go to him. Many trans women seem to not want "the plastic" look done (theres nothing wrong with that if you want that look). Many of us want to just blend in with society in general and see ourselves as the version that wasn't exposed to T. 

[Mirya]

I think a lot of his popularity is due to "famous" YouTube people who went to him.

Dr Spiegel is certainly a very good surgeon, but there are other very good surgeons too.  I just don't understand why people would spend nearly 100% more to go with him than other well qualified and experienced surgeons.  /shrug

Most cis women have an andro face without makeup & fem styled hair and so Spiegal pretty much delivers that for trans women.

I disagree.  The majority of cis women do not have naturally androgynous faces.  They have female faces because they're cis females.  The reason why they appear to have androgynous faces is because they're overweight.  Sooo many women are overweight, and that fat shows up on the face, making the face look less feminine.

If you examine the faces of cis women who have a normal BMI, they have distinctly feminine faces.

[Ypsf09]

2cherry: I agree that too much jaw reduction on someone with a wide head can look unusual. My comments on Stef Sanjati outcome was more about the forehead setback achieved by the surgery.

Lady_Oracle: I will have to agree with Mirya that majority of women don't have androgynous faces. Even the few that have a one or more masculine/androgynous features (jaw, chin, browbone, square hairline, thin lips, big nose), there faces as a whole are still undoubtedly read female even without makeup and hair pulled tight back in a pony. Women with truly androgynous faces where one may question their gender are very very rare. I was questioning Dr Spiegel's popularity not because he doesn't deliver hyper feminine faces but because the outcome looks androgynous as opposed to feminine especially for the price. Don't you think looking distinctively feminine in a natural way(without makeup/hair) would help to blend in society more than looking androgynous and needing constant hair/makeup aid. Also, just because a transwoman may expect/want a feminine result as opposed to androgynous one doesn't necesarrily mean she is going for the plastic look. Same way there are some surgeons that deliver a feminine result in a natural way without making the patient look fake at all.

Mirya: I agree about his popularity due to famous trans youtubers going to him. For the longest time, I thought Gigi Gorgeous's  FFS transformation was dramatic until I saw her without makeup.

[IglooAustralia]

Gigi Gorgeous. That's why, lol.

[Lady_Oracle]

Notice I said fem styled hair, if a cis woman shaves their head the appearance is largely andro aka baby faces usually. I cant tell you how many of friends (cis) over the years were misgendered before even saying a word because they had very short hair or in a boy cut. Plenty of cis women complain about looking like a teen guy. And so its not just in the face but a combination of things that make a woman look naturally fem and have specific genders cue to others that they are women. Like I said there's nothing wrong with the plastic look and thats not what I was saying about that or that going for anything other than andro is "hyper fem". Many women get some of their fathers features or majority in the face that make them look more masculine (bigger nose, large jaw/chin, etc...) I mean this goes right up with why so many asian trans girls are able to pass so well. I do agree however that they are things that aren't common for women to have like heavy brow bossing and a very rigid face in general obviously.

[Dena]

[Mirya]

That's Persis Khambatta, who was an Indian model.  Why did you post the picture?  Did you forget to include text? 

[Ypsf09]

Lady_Oracle: I still will have to say that the possibility of a cis female with bald head or boy cut hair getting misgendered(just on the basis of her face) is extremely rare. They may look weird or a bit off but still very female is most cases.

Apparently Dr Spiegel himself might not agree with you on this.

See video below specifically at 1:42

[anjaq]

On the original post: I think several things may prevented more forehead change in her case. For one, it may be the limits of the physically possible. I do not know what that Waardenburg Syndrome she has does to the bones in the forehead, but maybe it limits the changes. Next, I think there are indeed limits to how much can be changed when the nose is not changed with it. Third I think that sometimes a totalla flat and smooth and set back forehead may look artificial and "done". The majority of women do not have a completely smooth and set back forehead. If they do, usually the other features are more feminine as well. But if you hyperfeminize some part without being able or willing to do it to all the rest, it may look off. I do not think Stephanie looks masculine even before the FFS but I see a noticeable change in the lips and chin area. The change of the forehead seems more subtle.

The delicate balance one has to find is between being subtle (or too sublte) and being radical (or too radical). It can lead to either a disappointment and too little change, still looking androgynous or seeing masculine features in oneself - or looking "done" or out of harmony because the parts of the face do not match together - like having a big head and face, or a long face but then having a small nose or extremely smooth forehead. Or it is looking a certain way that people identify as something that was surgically altered.

That balance is sometime shard to find, I think...

[Dena]

That's Persis Khambatta, who was an Indian model.  Why did you post the picture?  Did you forget to include text? 

No, I don't want to argue either side and I suspect both sides will see what they want in the picture. I just found her face stunning when I saw her walk on to deck of the Enterprise.

[Rachel]

I had extensive work done with Dr. Spiegel.

I had type 3 forehead, orbitals, fat injections to the cheeks ( I have high cheek bones) and temples, upper lip reduction, mandible reduction, lower and mid face lift, forehead lowering and blethopasty. I did not have any nose work because it is very feminine and Dr. Spirgel said people would pay a lot of money for your nose.

I had jowles that were an issue and focused on correcting that when asked by the doctor. He did a good job but not quite to where I expected. I called today and will be sending a pic then follow up with a Skype conversation and perhaps a face to face visit. It is a soft tissue issue. I really hope resolution is nowhere what I went through in September.

My Operation, anesthesia and hospital cost was $50,000. I will get $14,000 back on my taxes for medical expenses so net is $36,000.

I did not see the GG video until months after my operation. She is a character in the video.

I have had a lot of woman pull me aside at work and give me complements. They list specifics that they like. My primary care PA-c said I look 30 years old; I am 54. 

He was recommended by my GCS Doctor. When I meet him I liked and agreed with everything he recommended ( he duplicated what I wanted done with the exception of the fat graphs) and I liked the way he handled his business. I was not looking for the cheapest or the most expensive procedures. I look like a different person.

[anjaq]

May I ask what the effect of doing fat injections in the cheeks is, if you have high cheekbones? I have high and prominent cheekbones and I actually like them - I saw a lot of beautiful actresses have them and FFS surgeons complimented me on having them - so I am not sure what fat injections would be useful there - make them even more prominent?

[Sophia Sage]

May I ask what the effect of doing fat injections in the cheeks is, if you have high cheekbones? I have high and prominent cheekbones and I actually like them - I saw a lot of beautiful actresses have them and FFS surgeons complimented me on having them - so I am not sure what fat injections would be useful there - make them even more prominent?

Fat tends to make features look more rounded and smooth.

[anjaq]

So if someone has high cheekbones where is the fat then put? Below the cheekbone? Putting it on the cheekbones would just make them more prominent after all... which is nice for some but others do not like it so much...

[Rachel]

The fat was injected around the cheek bone. It looks good.

I forgot, I had some fat injected in my lips too.

[Alyssa M.]

I went to Spiegel because of a few factors. Timing and aesthetics were important: He was available when I wanted, and his approach really hit the nail on the head as far as what I was looking for, which wasn't all that much (brow ridge + hairline advance; chin and mandible contouring). Also I have family and friends in the area, so I got to visit and didn't have to worry about where to stay or post-operative care and support. It went very well and I have no regrets or complaints.