Feminism and being transgender

[JMJW]

The backlash against the term mansplaining is because it's often used as a silencing tactic by the feminist in arguments. 

Even Wonder Woman is in on it! http://www.the-medium-is-not-enough.com/images/SC30_20.jpg

A lot of feminists are absolutely convinced the only answer to all of these things is that our society hates women.

[JMJW]

A man who admits to feminist thinking is assumed by other men to be gay.

Nah it's more like he's assumed to be sinking to the lowest denominator in selling out his own gender order to get laid by feminist women.

[Kylo]

Innocent?  He's explaining a topic TO ME, one that I was brought in as a lecturer on, in the course of my giving a presentation on the subject.

I've got 19 patents and published papers, which is why I'm there at that lectern.  Now, someone who made the effort to enroll in that session and attend has decided to explain how my own inventions work, to ME, the inventor.

Did you tell him that? Have you mentioned it to his superiors? If he's of no consequence to your work, how much does it affect you? Or is he your boss and it does affect you? Can you go over his head and ignore him? Because if it seriously hinders the impact of your work then yes it is a problem. If he's an annoying fly who can be disregarded, then ...disregard him?

My mother is a professional scientific lecturer and researcher never seemed to be hindered by older men around her. She's small and unimposing to look at. If this mansplaining is as rife as they claim she must have dealt with it somehow.

By the way I was referring to a general sense of what people have explained it to me as, not to your situation directly.

That's mansplaining at it's finest.  Situationally it is obviously wrong.  Yet the assumption of inferiority runs so deep that it completely overrides what should be obvious to anyone with a hint of self-awareness.

Yeah it is, but my point is that unless it actually hinders one's progress, listening to idiots is going to happen in all areas of life. Hearing things we don't want to hear and dealing with people we don't like is to some degree unavoidable and un-policeable. You're talking specifically about workplaces it seems. I'm talking about how "mansplaining" has crept out of the workplace definition and into pretty much all social contexts now.

It actually takes an effort to override these low level learned behaviors and treat a female person as an equal.  That's just sad, and something that needs to be addressed at a cultural level.

Agreed, and it is being. 60-70 years ago women weren't present in boardroom meetings at all. Female bosses were rare. It's not there yet but it IS changing. Might take a few generations to pass on but it will.

[FTMax]

I've never actually heard of a FTM who didn't strongly identify as feminist.

It's nice to meet you

Late 20's FTM. I did not consider myself a feminist before transitioning, and I do not consider myself a feminist now.

I think the feminism of the past had meaning and purpose. I don't believe that is the case currently regarding modern, western feminism which I believe is the topic Tessa was specifically inquiring about. You can say what you want about certain ideas being a minority or people misinterpreting or stretching facts to meet their individual agendas, but on the whole I don't see this current wave of feminism working toward anything worthwhile.

If anything, I see it as divisive. How often do you see these feminists standing up for or supporting conservative women? How often do you see these feminists caring about women who are not white and American/European? How often do you see these feminists expressing concern for male victims of sexual assault or domestic violence?

Perhaps those voices are being silenced by others who speak too loudly, but those are a few of my concerns about modern feminism and generally why I won't associate with it. Nothing really to do with my gender or that has been influenced by transitioning. If anything, my politics play a greater role in my feelings about feminism than my gender. This article is a few years old, but explains essentially where I'm at http://www.yaliberty.org/posts/are-feminism-and-libertarianism-compatible.

[Tessa James]

I greatly appreciate the feedback and diverse perspectives posted here.  You are helping to educate me and I need that.  The experiences i have had as an out trans woman suggest some levels of assumption based purely on appearances.  I am now seemingly less capable, warned to be careful and am seen as prey when just walking down the street.

Being transgender has a major learning curve I am still figuring out.  I must also acknowledge my privilege, years in a bubble and too many years of ignorance regarding race and class.  I will be part of the local Women's March this weekend and feel grateful for reading about your often passionately felt ideas.  Very stimulating.  Thank you.

[RobynD]

I totally feel the movement and it is exciting. That platform put fourth by the DC organizers is one that i am in 100% agreement with.

I will be there marching and participating in other ways. This country came close to an ERA in the 1970s and we will get there again with my generation and younger.

Equal rights for all. No patriarchy. Misogyny is not acceptable in public life. Feminism simply means equal rights, if anyone feels threatened by that, the only advice i can give is become unthreatened.

[Kylo]

The backlash against the term mansplaining is because it's often used as a silencing tactic by the feminist in arguments. 

Exactly. It's gone entirely beyond the idea of workplace bigotry.

[MissGendered]

Awesome exchanges!

It was a privilege reading through all of your input and responses and I am better for having done so.

Thank you.

Being a very feminine woman with much past access to unfiltered male conversation has also been a privilege. I have known very masculine men, men that are respected by men, to be spot on concerning women's rights and their equality and value. I have also known feminine gay men that hated on feminine women with a ferocity that still makes me sick to my stomach. As a pseudo-male, I also knew 'feminist' women that assumed me to be the enemy merely because they assumed I had a penis.

My point?

My point is, though my own experiences have been highly varied, I still have no way to actually form a statistically correct assessment of any particular group of people. I just have the impressions that my own experiences, shaded by my own prejudices, and limited by that which I cannot know, afford me.

If I know anything, it is that I do not know everything.

Do I consider myself to be a feminist? Sometimes.

Do I support the notion that all humans should be afforded equal rights? Yes.

Do I think I sometimes benefit from being seen as a feminine, white, educated woman? Yes.

Do I think I am sometimes penalized for being seen as a feminine, white, educated woman? Yes.

Did I experience firsthand that which is now called 'Male Privilege' in my past? Yes.

Do I still experience that which is now called 'White Privilege'? Yes.

Do I think I sometimes experience some kind of female privilege? Yes.

Do I think I sometimes experience some kind of 'pretty girl' privilege? Yes.

Am I annoyed when I am seen by some as a second-class citizen due to my womanhood? Yes.

Do I feel victimized by any of the above? No.

I just feel lucky to be able to be me in a diverse world where so much opportunity and such a wealth of information is at my fingertips.

The 21st Century has been very good to me so far.

Missy

[Asche]

The backlash against the term mansplaining is because it's often used as a silencing tactic by the feminist in arguments.

I've seen the word used a lot, and I haven't seen it used as a "silencing tactic."  Michelle_P's example is very close to the original example in the blog post "Men Explain things to me."

It is rather common, though, for bros to come into feminist discussion groups and proceed to tell them why their experiences didn't actually happen.  E.g.: Kylo's response to Michelle_P's example.  Michelle was there, Kylo wasn't, but he knows more than she about it.  At some point, the feminists want to just tell the bro to shut up, and sometimes they do.  Since, as Michelle points out, the bros aren't conscious of their assumption that they know more than the women they're talking to, they get all offended.  Like white people when POC point out their unconscious racism.  "What, me sexist?  Never!!"

Where it gets priceless is when bros lecture feminists about what mansplaining "really is."  Mansplaining mansplaining.

P.S.: we had one of these AMAB guys with the unshakeable, unconscious, innate sense of superiority show up at one of our trans support groups.  He paid no attention to what the moderator (a trans man) said, but finally shut up when I (AMAB) complained to him about his behavior.  They're everywhere.  Fortunately, he hasn't shown up since.

[Kylo]

Are you femsplaining on me, Asche? 

Fact is, I'm not just a "bro". I have been there and experienced exactly what women do. You can't dismiss my experiences like any other "bro's". I don't know all about about Michelle's workplace and I never said I did, I said I was talking about the term's use in general, as JMWJ illustrated example of, and in terms of talking about the workplace:

I want people to make the distinction between real harmful harassment, and a guy yapping when a woman doesn't like it. One is serious, the other is not. If Michelle's workplace issue is serious, then ofc I'd have no problem with her assessment of it. If it's just some inconsequential guy being a jerk, I would rather we all learn to dismiss those things, rather than make them out to be a serious problem in need of social engineering. Workplaces have jerks. What worries me is that people have begun to think you can throw the term mansplaining around to cover just about everything... like you just did there. I'm a man so of course I can't have any valid input on feminism, huh. Even though I used to be a woman.

[SadieBlake]

I think the feminism of the past had meaning and purpose. I don't believe that is the case currently regarding modern, western feminism which I believe is the topic Tessa was specifically inquiring about. You can say what you want about certain ideas being a minority or people misinterpreting or stretching facts to meet their individual agendas, but on the whole I don't see this current wave of feminism working toward anything worthwhile.

If anything, I see it as divisive. How often do you see these feminists standing up for or supporting conservative women? How often do you see these feminists caring about women who are not white and American/European? How often do you see these feminists expressing concern for male victims of sexual assault or domestic violence?

Of course I'm  sensitive to these realities. Perhaps specifically with regard to conservative women, to the extent they are people who would repeal roe v Wade we would disagree.

The same goes for my friends who are feminists - of course I'm not inclined to make friends who aren't open minded.

As for the various phases of the movement, of course it's never been all knowing, I would differ with you on the relative validity of the 3 waves being discussed (and I've been there to experience them personally) however that's not the point.

No movement, political philosophy, religion etc has a lock on truth or stupidity.

[Michelle_P]

Kylo, I think I'd femsplain it more like, "Your training is complete.  The Way of the Bro is strong in this one." 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Kylo]

Well for what it's worth Michelle, I hope you can stick it to that guy at your workplace. He sounds like an ass in need of some schooling himself. Or someone who can't retire soon enough.

I just want everyone to not get too het up and crazy and lose sight of sense. Of course I think I'm justified in my righteous cause. 

[RobynD]

I've seen the word used a lot, and I haven't seen it used as a "silencing tactic."  Michelle_P's example is very close to the original example in the blog post "Men Explain things to me."

It is rather common, though, for bros to come into feminist discussion groups and proceed to tell them why their experiences didn't actually happen.  E.g.: Kylo's response to Michelle_P's example.  Michelle was there, Kylo wasn't, but he knows more than she about it.  At some point, the feminists want to just tell the bro to shut up, and sometimes they do.  Since, as Michelle points out, the bros aren't conscious of their assumption that they know more than the women they're talking to, they get all offended.  Like white people when POC point out their unconscious racism.  "What, me sexist?  Never!!"

Agreed. Mansplaining is so common everywhere. Is pointing it out a tactic? Sure it is because it needs to stop.

I believe that many people's intentions are better than their behavior, but there seems to be this innate sort of defense mechanism for privilege that many people don't realize they are using.

Let it go as the song goes. Unfair power and privilege are overrated and not worth the costs to maintain.

[JMJW]

I've seen the word used a lot, and I haven't seen it used as a "silencing tactic."  Michelle_P's example is very close to the original example in the blog post "Men Explain things to me."

I'm talking from experience as well though.

I actually remember the last time a male feminist accused me of "mansplaining". Because I proved that Hermoine can't be interpreted as black if one actually reads the description in Harry Potter.

A discussion only tangentially related to feminism. 

http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/writers-corner/executive-meddling-changing-your-character's-race-and-gender/msg151430/#msg151430

Reply no 35.

my favorite part of this whole (very!) troll-like conversation is the man-splaining involved in which an unpublished nobody is presuming to tell the 11th most best selling fiction author of ALL TIME how her characters aren't iconic and she's lying about how her characters look because, you know, race-swapping.


In order to avoid the evidence and the debate:

Quote from: TBM on August 29, 2016, 04:44:07 AM

    Watch the video.


i did.

well.  the first 2 minutes.  that's all i could handle.

[Sno]

It reminds me of 'Modern dogma and the Rhetoric of ascent', and the outcome will be the same - apathy, distrust and bitterness.

I also believe that it is a prime example of 'divide et imperia' or 'divide ut regnes'. The longer the debate, the greater the dilution of the force to change.


Sno

[eggbun]

It should be, but in my experience, it isn't. 

A man who admits to feminist thinking is assumed by other men to be gay.  They use homophobia to enforce fem-phobia.  Militant feminist women will not accept feminist men as allies.  I remember, after the Montreal Massacre in 1989, when I expressed my shock and horror that 14 women were murdered for being female, I was told that, as a man, I could feel nothing.  No wonder men don't express feelings when that is the response they get.

Maybe my experience is not relevant, since, as it turns out, I was not a cis man.  But they didn't know that.  The assumed I was a cis man, and that is how feminist cis men are treated.

True this is a very good point. Now that I think about it, it's more acceptable for male celebrities to "come out" as feminists than an average person. But then again, like I said, a lot of the problems with feminism are problems rooted in classism (and racism)

[Kylo]

At some point, the feminists want to just tell the bro to shut up, and sometimes they do.  Since, as Michelle points out, the bros aren't conscious of their assumption that they know more than the women they're talking to, they get all offended.  Like white people when POC point out their unconscious racism.  "What, me sexist?  Never!!"

The problem with this is the idea that someone can't/shouldn't have input on a topic because of what's between their legs.

Didn't we just leave that party?

[eggbun]

I don't exactly believe too much in accusing just anyone of "mansplaining" however I think it happens often like in fandom. A fan who is a woman might find herself being accused of being a poser and a fake fan or may be suddenly lectured on the whole story and lore of her interest (ie Star Wars) while fans who are men will just give each other high fives and assume that they are all very educated on the topic. (plot twist: the woman is one of the people behind the Star Wars convention this fake scenario is taking place in  ).

It's not wrong to explain things to others, but it's wrong to assume that just because someone is a woman that they don't know their stuff.

[Tessa James]

We could point to innumerable episodes of harmful sexist behavior till the cows come home and still find more happening the next day.  Rather than chronicle or complain we can also, even simultaneously, use our talents for finding out what works better?  I am very grateful that we are hearing from diverse points of view here.  I appreciate people speaking up and having a voice for justice.

The reason I mentioned Riane Eisler is because she offers models and systems of partnership and cooperation that were likely in use during our prewritten human history/herstory;)  She has significant research to back her theories.  It seems we really have been exposed on a mass scale to examples of domination systems for a few thousand years.  My life seems to have been learning about and experiencing never ending warfare.  Prior to these epochs people lived a more peaceful, cooperative and partnership oriented life.  I am not suggesting we get back to some garden of eden but we can move the conversation forward with shared effort.  We are creative and flexible and we can create a better future starting today.  Glad to be with you on the ride.