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Question: Transgender kids after reaching puberty.

Started by rbulova, February 06, 2017, 12:15:41 PM

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rbulova

Hello!  I've been wondering when a child transgenders, e.g.  female to male, and then reaches puberty, is he subsequently attracted to young men or women?  Thinking that the two events, self-identity and attraction, are independent.  Or are they?  Anyone out there with any knowledge about this?

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Oldsmar, FL
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Denise

One of the prevailing/repeated comments here is sexual orientation and gender identity are independent.  There are some comments about people switching after transition but I don't have any statistics on that. 

Either way it would be only statistics and not a hard rule.  Basically it's an unknown what will happen.
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MeTony

I am FtM and known I am male since I was about 10 years old. I discovered I am bisexual in my teens. I don't believe that will change with hormones.
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Kylo

Quote from: MeTonie on February 06, 2017, 12:53:54 PM
I am FtM and known I am male since I was about 10 years old. I discovered I am bisexual in my teens. I don't believe that will change with hormones.

Same here.

I believe attraction and identity are independent. Others may have experiences that say otherwise.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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ghoulified g

Quote from: MeTonie on February 06, 2017, 12:53:54 PM
I am FtM and known I am male since I was about 10 years old. I discovered I am bisexual in my teens. I don't believe that will change with hormones.

Yeah, me too. I'm asexual though, I think, not on hormones at the moment though cause I'm too young, NHS won't put anyone on actual hormones till they're 17. Year and a bit to go, if I can find a damn clinic and a way to get there xD

I've heard people say though that the "changes" in sexuality people sometimes get with hormones are because they're more comfortable with themselves in general and they can think more clearly or something, I can't remember exactly what it was. There'll likely be stuff on youtube somewhere
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Fresas con Nata

I agree with the above replies. However, when you start thinking that you might be trans, there's a period of time of letting it sink in, during which you need to open your mind to the fact. I guess it's not strange for people who open their mind to realise more things that wouldn't be accepted earlier.

I always liked girls and only girls, but some guys are now attracting my attention, and I even realised that I like some guys I've known for several years. I don't think I'll stop being atracted to girls, but maybe the proportion girls:guys keeps on changing and I may end up on a different position in the Kinsey scale.
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Elis

I think gender identity and sexuality are completely independent of esch other. A trans person only seems like they've changed their sexuality after medically transitioning; because with the right hormones they're able to think a lot more clearly now the dysphoria has dissipated.

I didn't become more gay because of T; that side of me was always there in the back of mind; just before with dysphoria which hardly made me able to function; plus social anxiety and depression which was made worse by the dysphoria l found it hard to focus on much else and my sexuality wasn't my biggest concern.
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Ubiq

Puberty did not change my orientation whatsoever.

However, I did experience this unfortunate, but I'm willing to bet secretly common effect in which I gravitated more towards the desired gender identity, because I wanted to feel accepted by them. In all senses; the romantic, platonic, everyday. I avoided thinking about myself and my body as much as possible, to the detriment of my health sometimes, and instead poured my energy into being accepted by the natal members of that sex, wanting them to see me in my personal idealized way. It was a very unhealthy way of thinking and living, but that was just how I coped with it in my early years.
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Janes Groove

I'm not sure I buy the clean line demarcation between gender and sex. The problem I have with it is it just doesn't jive with pure statistical evidence. Only about 4 % of the general population is gay.  Those numbers suggest most women are into men and most men are into women.  Controlling only for the two variables of gender and sex.  By a pretty clear statistical significance.  Basic biology.  Gender-driven sexual attraction.  Also, my purely anectdotal real world observation is that the younger one transitions the more one  gravitates toward this statistical norm.

Also, I think I read somewhere that for mtf trans kids. The ones that start really early. Like 8 or nine.  100% end up getting SRS.
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nameuser

Quote from: Jane Emily on February 09, 2017, 10:43:44 PM
I'm not sure I buy the clean line demarcation between gender and sex. The problem I have with it is it just doesn't jive with pure statistical evidence. Only about 4 % of the general population is gay.  Those numbers suggest most women are into men and most men are into women.  Controlling only for the two variables of gender and sex.  By a pretty clear statistical significance.  Basic biology.  Gender-driven sexual attraction.  Also, my purely anectdotal real world observation is that the younger one transitions the more one  gravitates toward this statistical norm.

Also, I think I read somewhere that for mtf trans kids. The ones that start really early. Like 8 or nine.  100% end up getting SRS.
I've read several studies into high school students that show around 50% of young people admit to experiencing at least some degree of same sex attraction. They don't necessarily identify as LGB, so they wouldn't necessarily show up on a survey that had a gay/straight/bi checkbox. My point being, I think that shows the human race is a lot gayer than the statistics tend to show :P and as the less inhibited younger generations take up more space in the world, it'll become more and more apparent.

It's possible that whatever part of the brain has an impact on gender identity also has an impact on sexuality - hence most men liking women and most women liking men - but that wouldn't make gender a causal influence over sexuality.

In summary, human attraction isn't as binary as society likes to pretend, and while there is clearly a correlation between gender and sexuality, that's not the same as a causal link - I wouldn't say sexuality was gender driven.
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Janes Groove

Quote from: nameuser on February 10, 2017, 10:37:55 AM
It's possible that whatever part of the brain has an impact on gender identity also has an impact on sexuality - hence most men liking women and most women liking men - but that wouldn't make gender a causal influence over sexuality.

I'm curious what your thought are on the biological need to procreate?
Do you then accept that gender and sex are totally separated from this phenomenon?
i.e. men attracted to women, and vice versa, for the purpose of wanting to reproduce offspring.
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patrick1967

I agree that there is an overall biological need to procreate, there is in every species. We are more evolved than most species though. We are not so driven by that need that our biological males fight over females to the death in the town square when the female is ovulating. We also enjoy sexual behaviors for the simple act of pleasure rather than simply to procreate. Even if pheromones do come into play, as with most species, maybe the receptors in some males are chemically programmed to respond to male ones, and females to females. In any of these cases one's preferred "mate" would be unlikely to change strictly due to transition. I think it is much more complicated than that.
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Dena

Quote from: Jane Emily on February 11, 2017, 12:09:07 AM
I'm curious what your thought are on the biological need to procreate?
Do you then accept that gender and sex are totally separated from this phenomenon?
i.e. men attracted to women, and vice versa, for the purpose of wanting to reproduce offspring.
For a long time in human history, it wasn't understood that Sex=Baby. Women were the first to figure it out and for a long time, they used it as a tool to control men until men figured it out. We have a desire to have children but it's not biological in nature and many people have satisfied the need through adoption. It's a personal preference to roll your own that probably is the result of passing on the family name or wealth.
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Kylo

And some people have no desire whatsoever to procreate.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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nameuser

Quote from: Jane Emily on February 11, 2017, 12:09:07 AM
I'm curious what your thought are on the biological need to procreate?
Do you then accept that gender and sex are totally separated from this phenomenon?
i.e. men attracted to women, and vice versa, for the purpose of wanting to reproduce offspring.
I wouldn't call reproduction a "need" exactly. It's necessary for the survival of the species and I'm sure for some people, it is a need - I accept some people will never be happy without kids - but I think the majority of the sex going on in the world is happening because it feels good, rather than for reproductive purposes.

As Kylo pointed out, for many people, procreation is absolutely not a need - for some, it's their worst nightmare :P

Sexual desire is the need most of us are fulfilling when we have sex - reproduction is more of a want (depending on the individual). For the survival of the species, it's a need, but we're talking about individual people with individual identities and desires. And we're also talking about humans - who have evolved to the point that life, for most people, is about a lot more than survival of the species.

Identity is one thing we have that other animals probably don't (if they do, it doesn't appear to be as developed) and so discussing aspects of identity in terms of "this is how animals generally work" doesn't make much sense to me. The human condition is unique to humanity, and isn't always logical. It's also very individual, so generalising doesn't really work.

Like Dena said, sexual desire and the desire to have children are not one and the same. People (and non-human animals) generally have sex because it feels good, and sex feels good because nature wants us to procreate. But much of human nature is about transcending nature to the best of our abilities. Hence birth control.

To answer your question, I do see gender as totally separate from procreation. It's an aspect of identity. Sex, as in the reproductive organs you possess, is relevant in that without the right combination, you can't procreate (at least without turning to science). And sexuality is individual - nature wants us to procreate, so nature has set us up to be significantly more likely to be attracted to the opposite sex, speaking in terms of the species as a whole.

But speaking in terms of the individual: gay or straight, some people want kids, some people don't. Gay or straight, some people (including some trans guys) want to get pregnant, some people don't. Most people want to have sex either way.

So, in my opinion, an individual's sexuality is totally separate from their desire to procreate. The sexuality trends of the population as a whole are the result of nature's desire for us to procreate, but we are individuals with free will.

Hope I'm making sense and not rambling too much, I haven't had any hot chocolate all day and I actually might die.

Oh, and to answer the original question - I don't believe transition changes your sexuality. But being trans can make it extra confusing to figure out. I thought I was asexual until I accepted I was trans, then instantly realized I was gay. Up until that point, the idea of being with a man made me feel physically sick.

And a trans friend of a friend identified as a lesbian up until he accepted he was trans, then realized he'd never been sexually attracted to girls - he just liked how masculine he could feel around them. He identifies as gay now.

Our sexual orientations never changed - both of us were gay all along, we just couldn't see it until we accepted who we were.

A child who transitions and goes through the correct puberty from the start may have a less confusing time figuring their orientation out, but they'll be whoever they were born to be.
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