Forming new updated susans wiki entries for androgyne, non-binary, etc

[Mia and Marq]

It has been requested of us to spearhead working on some updated definitions for the local susans.org wiki entries for Androgyne, Non-binary, etc terms that fall within our area of expertise. I know that talk of updating Wikipedia's entries was being discussed and action on it was being debated but for the time being, lets get this effort going for our own wiki and go through with it. What ever result we come to in a week or two, we'll go ahead and get submitted.

Some things to keep in mind when working on these definitions. You don't want to make the definition specific to you, thats not the point. The point is to present the concepts in a way that others may understand the terms, not as much focus on specific incarnations, though mention briefly of how some interpret these concepts would be appropriate.

Have at it!
If you need specific links:

Androgyne - First and foremost we'll need a seperate Androgyne term and not just a redirect from Androgyny
Androgyny - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyny
Non-binary - Needs to be created
Third-Gender - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Third_gender
Null-Gender - Needs to be created
And any other terms that need updates or be created

Marq and Mia
This is now now

[cindybc]

Hi Marq and Mia

Ok, this thread appears to be the most recent. Well you two already know about who Cindy is, as for myself I am still only scouting the outer edges of androgyny.  I am post op but I still feel I need to learn more. I am happy and proud on my achieving becoming a woman. I am comfortable with that, but in the last couple of days I have spent a lot of time exploring what androgyny is, what I did learn is I did have many of the traits, I never knew what androgyny was before I came here, but it is enough to want to help in any way I can.

Cindy   

[RebeccaFog]

   I think we could appropriate the definition of genderqueer on wikipedia as a definition for androgyne.  They seem interchangeable to me.

   Just a thought.

[Seshatneferw]

Yes, androgyne could be based on the Wikipedia genderqueer entry with some minor modifications.

Here's a quick first draft for a couple of paragraphs of non-binary. Someone with a different view of gender please add to it.

Non-binary, as a gender term, is typically used in two ways. It can refer to the idea that there are more genders than the traditional male and female, and it can also be used to describe the gender of someone who does not identify with either of these two genders. The term non-binary encompasses several different views of the gender system.

As one example, it is possible to consider gender as a spectrum, rather like colours. In both cases there is a vast number of hues, but these are divided into different categories. It has been known since the 1960's that the colour terms of different languages form a hierarchy: if a language has only two colour terms, those correspond to 'black' and 'white; if three, 'black', 'white' and 'red', and so on.

The conceptualisation of gender can be seen similarly. If the spectrum is divided into two, these are 'male' and 'female'. This is not the only possibility, though, but a more fine-grained gender division is possible. For instance, a three-gender system could have 'male', 'female' and 'androgyne', or a five-gender system 'male', 'female', 'bigender', 'null-gender' and 'intergender'. In a sufficiently fine-grained division the genders would no longer have a matching physical sex.

  Nfr

[RebeccaFog]

I like that, nfr

[Seshatneferw]

Thanks; me too.

Still, I'd like others to add one or two different non-binary views, to get a bit more balanced article. Also, it might be useful to add a sentence or two on how transexuality does not require a non-binary view.

  Nfr

[Susan]

Thanks; me too.

Still, I'd like others to add one or two different non-binary views, to get a bit more balanced article. Also, it might be useful to add a sentence or two on how transexuality does not require a non-binary view.

  Nfr

Opposed.  Transsexuality part is NPOV and off topic for this article. It might be ok for the TS article if you can find sources for the statement.

[Seshatneferw]

I just thought of noting that for some TG subtypes it is not necessary to challenge the gender binary; for androgynes it seems to be. But yes, I see how that is getting a bit beyond the scope of this article. Thanks for pointing it out.

  Nfr

[Mia and Marq]

We're going to start the first revision of the androgyne and non-binary entries when we return from Thanksgiving. Submit any additions in this topic by then.

https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyne
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyny
Non-binary - New Article
Null gender - New Article


M&M

[RebeccaFog]

    I really stink at this.  I can't seem to fully grasp the concepts.  Not that there's anything wrong with them.  It is how my mind works.  I feel what you say, but I don't understand in a logical way.
    I'll help in any way I can, but I probably work better in a situation such as this if I have a task and responsibilities defined for me.

Maybe I'm useless.   

[cindybc]

Hi Rebis
Na! Never useless, some things just aren't our cup of tea, but it don't mean we can't do in part the task in question. We are only human. I at times have difficulty interpreting some written concepts especially when the documentation gets a little to windy, then my mind wanders. To have specifics assigned to one would greatly help. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the androgyne concept to really get involved.  just got on the boat.

Cindy

[Mia and Marq]

Ok Post a rough draft of what you might put for the Null Gender entry or the Non-binary entry.
You could also look at the Androgyne or Androgyny definition and mention anything you would change, add, or remove and post that here for others to discuss.

M&M

[Steph]

Ok Post a rough draft of what you might put for the Null Gender entry or the Non-binary entry.
You could also look at the Androgyne or Androgyny definition and mention anything you would change, add, or remove and post that here for others to discuss.

M&M

Hey there M&M.

You now have access to edit the Wiki.  See the PM I sent you, it has your log-in credentials.

Steph

[Susan]

Anyone else wanting access to edit the site's wiki just get with Steph she will be happy to set you up...

[Pica Pica]

Got a sort of null gender thing in my head just need the time off work to get it out, they're really whip cracking at the moment.
Also, what was the difference between androgyne and non-binary except petulance?

[Seshatneferw]

Also, what was the difference between androgyne and non-binary except petulance?

The way I see it, androgyne is one of the genders in a non-binary system.

  Nfr

[Steph]

Also, what was the difference between androgyne and non-binary except petulance?

The way I see it, androgyne is one of the genders in a non-binary system.

  Nfr

Just my 2 cents but I believe that the term Androgyne refers to "The person" a person who is genderless, between genders, non-gendered etc.  If the word androgyne is to be considered one of the genders in a non-binary system, doesn't that contradict the definition?

Just wondering...

Steph

[Alison]

The word "Androgyne" at it's roots means "male/female"  (Andro/Gyne)  So it doesn't seem to cover null/neutrois/non gendered just by the roots of the word.

Any thoughts?

[Caroline]

The word "Androgyne" at it's roots means "male/female"  (Andro/Gyne)  So it doesn't seem to cover null/n/non gendered just by the roots of the word.

Any thoughts?

Agreed.  Personally I don't care much if somebody wants to extend the term to include me* but I never use it to describe myself.  I'm not some mixture of man and woman, I am neither.  I think being n makes me more of a 'third gender' than a 50/50 mix of male/female.

*That'd make me petulant wouldn't it?

[Steph]

The word "Androgyne" at it's roots means "male/female"  (Andro/Gyne)  So it doesn't seem to cover null/neutrois/non gendered just by the roots of the word.

Any thoughts?

Valid point Alison but in the following:

Androgyny is a term derived from the Greek words ανήρ (anér, meaning man) and γυνή (gyné, meaning woman)[1] that can refer to two concepts regarding the mixing of both male and female genders or having a lack of gender identification. The first is the mixing of masculine and feminine characteristics, be it the example of the loud fashion statements of David Bowie, Jeffree Star, Boy George, Brian Molko, Marilyn Manson, Annie Lennox, and Visual Kei musicians, or the balance of "anima" and "animus" in psychoanalytic theory. The second is in describing something that is neither masculine nor feminine, for example the Hijras of India who are often described as "neither man nor woman" or angels which are often portrayed as genderless.

One may also interpret Androgyne as neither nor male/female

I'm not trying to cause trouble in your forum, just tossing some ideas out there as the forum seems to be in a bit of a quandary.

Steph