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Gay Man, Trans Woman, Neither?

Started by p, February 17, 2017, 04:27:09 PM

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p

Hello to all. I have been lurking here for a while; decided to register and post today. First off, I want to say thank you to everyone here for sharing your stories and experiences. I am really grateful to you all and have been learning a lot.

I am really unsure about what my ultimate status will be. I have not seen a therapist or started any medication. I am in my late 20s and have been living as gay man. On Valentine's day, I finally expressed to my husband that I am having some gender identity issues. Luckily, he was very supportive. (He's bi, so that helps.)

I have struggled with gender identity a couple of times before, but I always played it off. I would think something like, "Gender is a social construct, so I can just dress how I want and act how I want, and I don't need to label my feelings." (I am not trying to say this to be offensive to anyone here who has different knowledge/experience of their own gender. Just trying to share my state of mind at the time.) That worked out okay in college. I went to a very liberal school where I was constantly hanging out with LGBTQIA+ people and could safely cross-dress often without raising too many eyebrows. But as I have settled down near my husband's family, lost that queer community, and stopped wearing makeup, painting my nails, and cross-dressing in order to fit into family life, I have really begun feeling mixed up. I have noticed that if I spend any time around transgender people or watching transgender media, I feel insanely jealous. But I must say that my level of discomfort with my body itself is relatively low, at least for now. But my desire to dress and be perceived as a woman/femme is very strong.

So, now that I have sort of let myself say out loud that I am having gender identity issues, I feel really uncertain about how to interpret my past. Part of me feels, frankly, a little ridiculous for not having seen the signs earlier. My Facebook photos are 20%+ of me dressed in drag. I have worn makeup and painted my nails on and off since high school. I have also worn articles of women's clothing since high school. Even when I was a little kid, I would put my grandma's hat and shoes on and sweep the floor. My progressive parents put male and female clothing in our dress up box as kids, and I loved to parade around in my mom's old pumps with long-nailed witch fingers on. My closest family and friends have always used a feminine nickname for me. So one part of me feels like these experiences are a long trail of breadcrumbs I have been leaving for myself. And at the end of that trail is a sign that says "Duh, you're trans!"

However, I have always just chalked up much of this to being a gay man who is just more feminine in his gender presentation. I have always told myself that "I've known I was gay since I was a little kid." I came out when I was quite young.  I haven't necessarily had such concrete feelings re: gender in the same way. And, unless my denial is very, very potent, I am mostly satisfied with my body. I would prefer it to look more feminine, but I am fine with my sex organs and I enjoy sex. So this leads me to worry that if I seek out trans support groups, they are going to laugh me out of the room. To say that I overthink situations is putting it mildly--I could give a list of questions/concerns a mile long at this point.

So, to pick just a few questions: have any of you experienced any of these feelings of confusion re: transition? Difficulty separating the feminine components and rituals of gay male sexuality (more attention to appearance, makeup, occasional cross-dressing/drag) from the desire to present as a woman on a full-time basis or medically transition? Does anyone have any tips or strategies for sorting out these feelings?

Yours with love and confusion,
P

[note: I edited the above a little bit to comply with the site's terminology policy]
Patti

Something is off - 2016-17
Out to husband - 2/14/17
Full-time - 3/9/17
HRT - 6/14/17
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V M

Hi P  :icon_wave:

Welcome to Susan's Place  :)  Glad to have you here, join on in the fun

Here are some links to the site rules and stuff that we offer to all new members to help them along

Please be sure to review:


Things that you should read


Hugs

V M
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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Tessa James

#2
Welcome to the Place P.   

Your journey sounds familiar to me and I used to say that I was pushing for a broader definition of male.  I still want to see that definition open up, but there is a line we cross and I have gone over.

I knew myself to be queer from childhood and had psychologists suggest I was simply a very bottom gay man when I sought help in the early 80s and explained i did not feel like a man at all.  Having been part of the gay male world we both know lots of guys call each other girl, crossdress, occasionally play drag and IMO are more comfortable with gender borders until we cross the gender divide.  I miss some of that too.

Being unsure of your ultimate status suggests you are smart and aware that people do change with self exploration and acceptance opening doors.   We might not know about what's on the other side but there is this persistence about our intrinsic gender identity that will not rest if unexpressed.

Interpreting our past can be tricky and it is really impossible to have an objective look back.  Now we can look back with new information and fresh perspectives but is it validation we seek or understanding?  I hugely repressed much of my early childhood and am skeptical due to my my ability to conflate and reimagine what i wish to be true.  And does it matter why or how we arrived here?  You know what you are getting into and you also understand that this is hardly a life path some would chose for fun and games.  I am happy to hear that you are not stuck on the labels as they are so limiting.  Again, my opinion.

There are plenty of transgender people that do not experience dysphoria about their genitals and perhaps even more who have experienced considerable action with the original issue basket.  There is a continuum and there are folks who would never touch the thing and others like myself who found ways of coping and making the best of what was real.

Sorting it out can be a fun experience and i hope you allow yourself plenty of latitude to explore and imagine.  I most frequently imagined myself a girl no matter who I was with in bed.  I also left plenty of bread crumbs but was too afraid to pick em up or connect the dots and was also able to deny myself due to not fitting the rigid trans narratives of the past.  The non or less binary perspectives are currently allowing some of us to see our unique way forward too.

Have fun!
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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Janes Groove

I know lots of people who started out gay and went trans.  If I'm not mistaken Chelsea Manning is one. So am I. 

I came out as gay in 1994 and at the time I had as much attraction to females as I did to males but I couldn't live a double life anymore hiding my same sex attraction issues. And I had fun for a time but after awhile, since I'm transgender, even gay sex wasn't all I expected it to be.  Something was STILL off.  So I drifted toward a default asexual life while identifying socially as a gay man. But when I really took the lid off and looked inside I realized that it wasn't just same sex attraction but was combined with transness.  It wasn't just that I wanted to go to bed with with a man. It was more that I wanted to go to bed as a woman.  Also, I never got involved in the drag scene back then because, honestly, looking back on it, I was scared to death of opening up that door to myself.  There just wasn't much in the way of transgender support back then. And the bottom line is, I just wasn't ready.

Then there's the whole world of non-sexual stuff that I am now experiencing as a woman. Experiencing all this now makes me realize how much I always needed it and how much I was missing.

You're challenge is the same as that for all transgender people who are questioning.  Whether they come from the gay or straight world. You must ask yourself.  'How do I feel when I am gendered male?' versus 'How do I feel when I am gendered female?'  The honest answer to that question will determine how you will wish to proceed.  And the only way to really get that answer is what we call RLE (Real Life Experience).  It sounds like you have already experienced lots of RLE activities already.  Also, a good gender therapist can really help you sort out these issues and lead you to a place where you are more comfortable living with your gender nonconformity.

Don't worry too much about not being accepted in trans support groups.  I have been going to my group just about every week for the last year, and while I was surprised to learn that the great majority of trans women, at least middle age and older are or were married and heterosexual men when they started the process of transition.  I have only and ever received warm acceptance as a kindred trans woman.  I have never really seen the kind of homophobia that is present in the cis world. 



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p

Thank you so much for your thoughtful responses, Tessa & Jane! I am feeling so lucky to be a part of this wonderful community. I was able to sneak away from dinner to read your posts last night, and they really helped my state of mind.  Thank you, thank you, thank you again.

Something I have taken away from both of your posts is that this is truly a journey of self-discovery, so there's no way to just think your way to a solution. I was nervous about exploring for fear of somehow wasting my time or misleading myself, but I think you both showed me that I had it backwards: there's no way to figure yourself out without experimentation and RLE. And Jane, you're so right that I already have a lot of RLE, and I just need to focus on how I feel when I'm gendered male or female; and Tessa, I think you expressed so beautifully how parts of gay life can feel affirming even if you decide you need to "cross the line" to live life authentically.

Speaking of RLE, I went to the drugstore yesterday to get some makeup and nail polish. I forgot how scary it can be to shop for these items. When I got home from work and family dinner, I put them on. I have been growing my hair out for months already, so I experienced a huge thrill once I had applied my makeup and styled my hair in a traditionally female style. It was a really powerful experience.

I'm not sure where this road ends, but I'm determined to enjoy the trip. Thanks again for your incredibly helpful advice, Tessa & Jane!
Patti

Something is off - 2016-17
Out to husband - 2/14/17
Full-time - 3/9/17
HRT - 6/14/17
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Janes Groove

Quote from: p on February 18, 2017, 12:40:07 PM

Speaking of RLE, I went to the drugstore yesterday to get some makeup and nail polish. I forgot how scary it can be to shop for these items.

That's wonderful.  And now you remind me of all those times I used to feel so out of place and uncomfortable buying clothes or other feminine items.  So sure that I would be discovered and some horrible fate would befall me.   That's all gone now.  It just feels normal. 
And just today as I was out and about TCB and in 3 separate encounters, I was referred to as her, as Jane, and later as ma'am.  All three times I felt a gladness.  For me it's something that I just never get tired of.  It just feels so validating and right.
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p

Just a quick update on my situation. I am out to my husband's immediate family and my immediate family, as well as my office mate. Everything went quite well. My father-in-law was totally unsurprised, which actually made me feel good.

I came out as questioning, which I think was a little more confusing to explain than if I had some kind of firmer answer, but I think that it also helped me to avoid questions about clothes / makeup / hormones / surgery, all of which make me pretty uncomfortable to talk about still. Hoping therapy can help me unload some of the shame around these topics. Everyone was very understanding, and many expressed excitement and encouraged me to explore my gender expression. I am feeling so privileged to have family support right now.

Speaking of support, I actually went to a group the weekend before last. It was very nice to meet some of the other folks there. The only downside is that they meet less frequently than I would like.

Next stop: therapy! (Sometimes I think we are the only people in the world who get this excited about going to therapy). If anyone has good tips for finding a therapist, I'm all ears. From what I've read here, it seems like finding someone experienced is key.

Oh, and one last note: my nails are growing out! :-* I am beyond excited--I have dreamed about having beautiful, long nails since I was a kid!

Yours with love,
P
Patti

Something is off - 2016-17
Out to husband - 2/14/17
Full-time - 3/9/17
HRT - 6/14/17
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Tessa James

Oh P you are on such a nice roll!  Coming out (again for us;) can be huge effort and you are getting some great feedback.

Therapy can be tricky and i think your comfort and confidence level are paramount while their experience can be ??.

I had therapist tell me all kinds of things, as I said before, and the level of therapeutic value is yours to determine, of course.  I saw one simply as a gatekeeper and to get a letter.   As I should have expected, I was the one who needed to do the work, research and introspection.  I did work through shame with therapists acknowledging repeatedly that I really was OK as is.  I had done nothing wrong and being honest about myself was not an attempt to hurt anyone even if some take it that way.

Femme nails were one of those small personal items I enjoyed well before coming out.  I am still amazed how a quarter inch of fingernail can make such a difference?

It's nice to have you here, I like your style.

Love and hugs to you too
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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Janes Groove

Congratulations. That's wonderful news. I'm glad everyone was so accepting.  Sounds like your closet had glass doors (but I think, on some level, in one way or another, that's true for most of us.  e.g. when I came out as gay to my dad back in the day he said, "Yeah, I always kinda figured it was something like that.").

Experience is pretty crucial.  I was lucky that in my major metro area there was a gender center that offers a sliding scale that is only a few blocks from where I live.  My therapist was a gay woman and we were pretty simpatico.  Also, I read somewhere, where a doc recommended finding a therapist  who has helped at least 3 people, preferably more, with a successful transition.
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julia-madrid

Hello P, and welcome to our club, ahem!  :)

I'm an old member.  I left after I finished my transition, but I rejoined recently to assist newcomers from time to time.

The others have expressed some excellent points, so there's no need to repeat those.  It's a fascinating journey, and you seem to have your head very well organised, which is a major advantage.

Take your time with therapy, and use it to explore yourself:  it's the best excuse you'll ever have to untether your mind and free yourself from what are often self-imposed constructs on gender. 

On the subject of body dysphoria, there are a small number of us whose distress is minor and very controllable.  But there is often a complex interplay between the desire to be physically female and socially female, and at some point you will find your equilibrium, where these two elements should converge in a place where you would feel comfortable to live with them. 

It's a weird journey and, for me, it was one of the most incredibly positive experiences of my life.  Surround yourself with friends and family - they almost all will be strongly supportive and will want to live the journey with you.  And work hard at it: liberating the girl and giving her the Pygmalion treatment takes real effort at times!

Hugs
Julia

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Tessa James

Julia!  OMG how nice to see you back here!  You look fab and make more sense than ever.  What's been going on?

(please excuse the minor derail to acknowledge a friend and welcome her back)
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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julia-madrid

Quote from: Tessa James on February 28, 2017, 01:30:43 AM
Julia!  OMG how nice to see you back here!  You look fab and make more sense than ever.  What's been going on?

Thank you Tessa, and good to see you!  Will write to you :-)
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p

Quote from: Tessa James on February 27, 2017, 04:37:17 PM
Oh P you are on such a nice roll!  Coming out (again for us;) can be huge effort and you are getting some great feedback.

Thanks, Tessa! The coming out again has been interesting. It's much easier this time around. Although part of me feels like "Aren't I done with this crap already?!" ;)

Quote from: Tessa James on February 27, 2017, 04:37:17 PMI had therapist tell me all kinds of things, as I said before, and the level of therapeutic value is yours to determine, of course.  I saw one simply as a gatekeeper and to get a letter.   As I should have expected, I was the one who needed to do the work, research and introspection.

Thank you so much for your perspective on the therapy. In my quest to find the perfect therapist (who also takes my crappy insurance), I almost forgot that I have to actually do all of the work to make the therapy worthwhile! And I can start that process before I even choose a therapist.

Quote from: Tessa James on February 27, 2017, 04:37:17 PMIt's nice to have you here, I like your style.

I couldn't sleep well last night and read this message at 2AM. You have no idea how happy reading this made me!!! I am so happy to be here, and to have met you!

Quote from: Jane Emily on February 28, 2017, 12:23:55 AM
Sounds like your closet had glass doors

Haha, yes--this made me laugh out loud! I think if you saw a picture of me, you'd see just how obvious things are getting because of my hair. At the risk of revealing how appallingly vain I am, I'll tell you that I'm a natural blond with thick, wavy hair. I get a lot of compliments on it.

Quote from: Jane Emily on February 28, 2017, 12:23:55 AMAlso, I read somewhere, where a doc recommended finding a therapist  who has helped at least 3 people, preferably more, with a successful transition.

This seems like a great "interview question" for a therapist--thank you, Jane Emily!

Quote from: julia-madrid on February 28, 2017, 01:16:43 AMIt's a weird journey and, for me, it was one of the most incredibly positive experiences of my life.  Surround yourself with friends and family - they almost all will be strongly supportive and will want to live the journey with you.  And work hard at it: liberating the girl and giving her the Pygmalion treatment takes real effort at times!

Thanks, Julia! I'm so glad you came back to help others--we need it! I'm really glad to hear you say to surround myself with friends and family. In my more paranoid moments, I had worried that coming out as questioning was a bit too much--now I am under the microscope with my closest loved ones and they will be scrutinizing what I do. But I think that this idea of going on the journey together is really more the right way to think about it! Especially since everyone has been so supportive so far.

I am so glad I decided to post a little update. I'm so lucky to have you all rooting for me!

Yours with love,
P
Patti

Something is off - 2016-17
Out to husband - 2/14/17
Full-time - 3/9/17
HRT - 6/14/17
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Tessa James

Quote from: p on February 28, 2017, 01:50:20 PM
Thanks, Tessa! The coming out again has been interesting. It's much easier this time around. Although part of me feels like "Aren't I done with this crap already?!" ;)
I couldn't sleep well last night and read this message at 2AM. You have no idea how happy reading this made me!!! I am so happy to be here, and to have met you!

One of the many reasons I came out, this time, was in response to several teens committing suicide in Oregon and after meeting another trans person that did a presentation as an enby or non binary person.  Before that I felt I didn't fit anywhere and had not earned the title of transgender.  Seems there a million ways to be trans.  The lack of family and social acceptance can be lethal for some and I love being part of supporting any brave person, like you, who is standing up for herself. 

My guess is you are going to rock this and have a good time doing so.
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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p

Hello friends! My journey continues.

Saturday was March 4th, and I did as the calendar commanded (March Forth!). I went to the salon, where they know me as male, and came out the stylist so I could get my hair cut the right way. Got some little side bangs, which is helping me feel better about my face. She also helped me learn some new ways to style my hair. It was a really positive experience, but I was really nervous going in. I stopped by the drugstore for a couple makeup brushes and then tackled putting together a full makeup look. Other than my foundation being too light, it went well! I have been watching some videos (thank God for YouTube), and that really helped me work up the nerve to do my own makeup. For the first time in a long time, I was feeling pretty with a capital P!

Then, it was off to Goodwill with the hubby, where it was totally worth enduring some puzzled looks (still had the makeup on) to get a ton of great things very cheaply. (The details: nude wedges, some very sensible heels, 5 pants, 4 blouses, a dress - $50!). I was a little worried about not knowing my style, but I really felt at ease picking through the racks and decided I actually do have taste in women's clothes already--I just hadn't been exercising it. As with my taste in men's clothing, I am old-fashioned to a fault and will probably end up looking like a 30-year-old grandmother. Now all I need is enough courage to actually wear any of it! Any suggestions for what to wear under a sheer top? Do we just do a bra or is it better to go for a cami?

Then on Sunday, I went in search of some makeup that actually matches my skin tone (note: probably not worth going and sitting at a counter like I did since they sold me some expensive makeup that, while it works great, is probably not worth what I paid). I got my brows done at the in-house salon--what a dream come true! I truly have caveman eyebrows (were I not blonde, I would have already had to be getting regular waxings), but now I feel like a pretty lady's eyebrows are living on my face. And then it was back for a little more Goodwill (I'm addicted to deals! Purse, 2 blazers, turtleneck - $25). I also made a quick stop by an optical shop to try to get a sense for some women's glasses I like (sadly, I look awful in many of the trendy styles right now, but it was worth figuring out since I order my glasses online). I am totally going to steal a page out of Tessa's book and get some colorful frames!   

So all told, it was a weekend of breaking down barriers and putting the tools in my hand to be who I want to be. As I said before, now it's a matter of having the courage to put it all together!

I am off to my support group meeting now, 2nd one. Hopefully all goes well.

Love,
P
Patti

Something is off - 2016-17
Out to husband - 2/14/17
Full-time - 3/9/17
HRT - 6/14/17
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Janes Groove

That sounds like you're having lots of fun. Almost like something was set free. Truly a cause for celebration.  Enjoy.
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p

Quote from: Jane Emily on March 07, 2017, 12:37:49 AM
That sounds like you're having lots of fun. Almost like something was set free.
I think you're right, Jane Emily! Thanks for your note.  :-*
Patti

Something is off - 2016-17
Out to husband - 2/14/17
Full-time - 3/9/17
HRT - 6/14/17
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