Is stealth becoming more and more out of reach with increasing trans awareness ?

[alex82]

So I now and "behave " like a woman ? Honey women act different ways some of trans sound like misogynistic patriarchy types ....


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I hear that.

There's all sorts of stuff wrapped up in this topic about supermodels and Disney princesses. At least the first type is real.

Ultimately most people just want to get on with their own lives without a song and dance. And especially without other people making one about you.

I say do whatever is comfortable. If that means female or male and glamorous all the time, great. Some of the time, great. Never, great.

Changing from one sex to the other and any of the above? Great. Not changing and any of the above? Fab. Can't be bothered as a cis woman to dress in a way that stops traffic? Enjoy your day. Can't be bothered as a cis man to comply with gender stereotypes either? Fine. Don't want to hit the breaks of your car and have a right old leer when a done up woman tries to cross the road? Excellent - and all the better for you, her, and whoever is unfortunate enough to be driving directly behind your sleazier peers.

Just do whatever you need to do to get through your own life. I thought that was what this was all about anyway.

[Karen_A]

Also if one has truly achieved stealth, it shouldn't be that easily weakened by their attire,makeup,hair choices.

In general I agree... I have always said that if you have to dress a certain way, or wear your hair a certain way or do makeup a certain way (or at all) to pass ... you don't pass well enough for stealth , period, full stop.

I have a body that means despite having full boney FFS (never mind BA and SRS) some will always read me no matter how I dress or act... That has been my experience in the 20 years since I transitioned (well actually it will be 20 years this August)...

There was a time I would not have qualified that with "in general"... but now thinking back by that standard some GGs I've seen don't pass as GGs...

One incident stands out in my memory.... A number of years back I went to the MWWF and at a workshop there i head a butch lesbian talk about her experiences... She was somewhat stocky but not tall, but also not feminine...

She was not on testosterone, was not an FTM and inaction to being born female, completely IDed as female... The obvious pain in her voice in he stories about being "read" as male and how she was treated because of it is something I will not forget...

I could relate to this feelings ... though ironically she was very anti T* because many who knew her kept pressing her to go the FTM route... that seemed to more socially ... but was definitely not who she was...

So in reality hair and dressing and manner do matter to a degree...

That said SOME of us who made the change too late in life simple has too many physical tells for the T* aware world. The downside of that is that a completely normal woman's life is not really possible... The upside is that in many places there is now enough acceptance that being somewhat readable does not mean one does has to be a social outcast, a hermit, unemployable professionally, etc, etc as was case earlier in my lifetime.

In terms of actual stealth, besides the physical and behavior things needed, these days electronic records , social media and the net in general do make it much harder...

Because of the information age, if one does not transition very young (High school or before), I don't know if true stealth is really achievable anymore.

If one can pass VERY well and be willing to burn ALL bridges and live off the grid for awhile,  something close to true stealth may be possible for some who make the change as adults... I don't know.

I think the best one can do is simply not talk about it, and figure out what one wants to say if anyone is rude as to ask if they had changed sex.

I can tell from people's reactions when I get read... it's not that often but it it happens, but in the last 20 years I have only been asked directly about it twice by extremely rude men.

In my case though,  even if I passed 100%, besides staying married from before and staying in the same profession and ams town,  I have too much of an electronic foot print  for stealth...

All and all, even though I wanted a "normal" life very much originally (a big reason I did not transition younger) ,  I am grateful that stealth is not necessary for survival these days.

- karen

[TinaVane]

Only way you can live in true stealth is if you move in a rural non tech / internet savvy place. Amanda Lear lived that stealth existence til one could easily do a background check on her in the new millennium...


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[Karen_A]

I have heard about cis women getting clocked but I have a hard time believing it given I have an extremely strong transdar(which I hate about myself). I think women with so many masculine features that one would question their gender is extremely rare(probably 0.1 %). Also for that small precentage, generally they would only be mistaken for being trans in static pics. In real life despite of their masculinity, you would instantly know they are female once you talk to them.

I suspect it's more than 0.1%. What one sees depends very much on one's social, professional and economic status.

As I said in another post,  used to be a place where more than few such gathered that would not be instantly genders female in such situations... Experiencing that gives one a bit of a different perspective.

- karen

[Spunky Brewster]

Hmm, the more things change; the more they are exactly the same. But, there might be some 30-year-old woman (trans woman) out there that is reading this and is on the fence about transitioning. Now, after the you have to be on HRT before puberty or 22, they don't transtion and they kill themselves or they die 40 years from now having never been happy and wondering in their last thought, "What if?"

I used to be that 30-year-old woman. Deeply unhappy. A heroin addict. Lonely. And scared. So, I said "eff it." I started taking hormones and within, IDK, 30 to 60 days I lost every friend I ever had. I didn't tell them I was transitioing, but HRT worked like some voodoo magick for me. I can't tell anyone else's story, nor is it my right. But I can tell mine. And this is for you: the lurker, the questioner, the what if girl.

I'm four years in on HRT, to the month. By the end of year one, my then new friend and now boyfriend and future husband (fingers crossed) made love to me, rough, for the first time. From then one, we have sex on the reg. I am having surgery in a couple months; just waiting for my date. He might dump me if I didn't do it, since he does like vagina. But, he knew I was determined to do it, since you could offer me $10 billion to not have surgery and I would turn it down.

That's the end of the story and the beginning of a new one, which is going to be even better.

But, I pass. I pass all day. I pass everyday. I could wear a suit and no one would beleive I am a man, well I'm not, so why would they? My ID hasn't changed, so I guess it depends on your definition of "deep" stealth. They will be changed by October. I don't wanna mess with my insurance. It's paying for it.

No one has ever asked me on the street if I'm trans. Trans women don't think I'm trans. I'm sure there are plenty of people like me. Ok, sounds great. I also haven't had surgery or practiced my voice; I'm one lazy girl, as my BF tells me. But I do love too shop. Call it stereotypical. I spent half my life dreaming of being in a mall. Literally. I always dreamt I was in a mall, but I could never shop. Now, I shop all the time. But, i love fashion and beauty. Pe-transtion I was a fashion and beauty editor at a magazine. And maternity editor. It was a very manly job telling women's stories and playing with makeup so I could write about it. That money was supposed to be for SRS, but I couldn't pull the trigger, so I stuck it in my arm.

To start with, I have no adam's apple, none. Smoother than smooth. My hairline is kinda erratic and not high, like a woman's (I also have a widow's peak). I look like my sister's twin and was asked all the time if I was a "man." I'm also 5'5. When I started, my hair was in a fauxhawk; don't judge it was bada$$. So, one day, I won't lie I took a bunch of adderral and somehow ended up on the Before and After site. I was like hormones can do that. I ordered them (bad decision) online about five seconds after I heard you could. You have to understand I was battling a heroin addiction, as in past tense, and I was 30. Gay men wouldn't date me for being too femme, and same goes for staright women. I dated one woman who dumped me, or broke off the engagement, since I can't have sex much. Hence the heroin.

So I wouldn't have transtioned if I thought I wouldn't be able to pass at least some of the time. The whole trans pride movement wasnt big four, five years ago. Just wasn't.

I feel like this is TLDR, so I'll get to the point. In 2015, I went to rehab. In detox, they put me in my own room. In Rehab, they put me in an all women's facility. So, there was 25 women, all day, every day, looking at me. Once, someone mentioned to another girl that I prolly had massive amounts of surgery and did soemthing to my voice. How I would afford this being the brokest girl there, I don't know. Anyway, this also happened the same night I dead named myself (called myself by my very male name) in group. I was like I'm done. Put a fork in me. So, it was my roomate who told me this discussion about me happened. And all the girls told the other girl that there is no way in hell I was born a man. No way. Not with that body. She's to tiny. Her hands, Her feet (size seven in women's), her, well, evrything. My voice pitch registers at 207 in pitch on average when talking regularly. I could make it higher but why would I do that? I can't pass as myself on the phone. It's really annoying. My BF has to pass as me. It's actually kinda funny.

Anyway, I started crying and my one friend asked why the next day. She was like, yeah, I was there and, girl, those two are just straight up jealous. No one thinks you are trans, so don't worry. You're beautiful. It was never brought up again. So watch deanaming yourself. The main reason they thought I was trans: I have slightly athletic legs and shoulders. My shoulders are also 13" wide from bone to bone. That's narrow. I'm also a 32DD-27-35. But, I wish my butt was bigger. Oh well. I also have some pockmarks. Yuck. I has six sessions of laser a year ago. I still have some greys, about fifty, but I just pluck them, since it lasts for a month. Once I pluck, I can go one week without shaving. If I don't pluck, it goes down to three days. But I would still pass. I do it for me. The same reason I wear makeup. The same reason I'm having GCS. The same reason I love shopping. Because trying on really expensive dresses is awesome. I might go wedding dress shopping, but I have no friends, just my BF. But, that will change soon. Some personal stuff.

Also, people at that rehab, in Philly, hated transgender women. HATED. Including my roomate who cried when I left. And when we did giggles and bricks, every woman said something totally thought out and nice to me. It was AMAZING!! I mean I felt like I was queen.

So yeah, I'm cute. Adorable. But I'm not gorgeous. I'm not average or invisible. There is a bad side to passing. Some guy grabbed my vagina the other day. Yeah, I wont have SRS for like two months--by July, latest--but I don't have testes and my thing is like...its small. I'll be happier when it's filled with my BF's...yeah lol I became more femme throughout the years by virtue of everyone treating me like a woman and every guy saying hi to me if I make eye contact. But, I could leave the house looking like hungover garbage and I would still pass. I call that New Year's Eve, the same night my BF's Bestfriend's GF wanted to beat me up for smoking a pipe with him. I mean we're in Scranton, it's 10 degrees, what are we supposed to do. She was all like "You're in the car, with HER? Nothing is going on? Really with little miss perfect and pretty over here." I was bout to say "You think I'm pretty that's so sweet." But I din't want to get beat up. She was like 5'7. I'm actually 5'4.75 inches and 125 lbs. I'm really tiny. If Put up a picture you might think I'm being a little hyperbolic, but my camera has a 2 MP thingy, so I'm not photogenic.

But, I'm her to say: it is possible. It's possible. And if all the people on here who say it isn't and are such the authority on all thing's passing; I say I did it. And I'm not done. I'm going to have baby too. Not myself. Obviously. So, if you're thinking of taking hormones, I had a dream, literally, that I was in the mall in the mountains and I was with these two women, who were like sisters. We were shopping. And I had a vagina. I could feel it. Guess what? MY BF lives in the mountains (he is coming back to Philly tomorrow), and he has two sisters. In two months, I'll have a vagina. His family loves me. I got him clean, kinda. I got me clean. And my life rocks. I shop for dresses. Noone has called me "sir" in like four years. I can't even remember.

So it's possible. And dreams do come true. I'm proof, cause mine did, almost literally. Four years ago I was ready to die at 30; and now I can't wait to live the rest of my life as a woman, as me. It's not impossible, you don't have to be 12, or 20. I have condtion and my T levels were 134 when i started, but still. I could be YOU. I didn't think I could be either. But me and my awesome hair and boobs and clothes and hot a$$ BF (who used to play BB ball in college and whose thing tastes like YUM!) says wrong. Miracles do happen. Because I am one!

Bam!

(I hope I didn't offend anyone; just wanted to inject some hope into this thread.) I couldn't make this up. I"m still stunned. With a big smile on my pretty face!

[Ypsf09]

I wouldn't limit myself to a future job -- my goal was to never have a conversation with anyone not already in the know about these issues.  (Well, with the exception the occasional doctor.) 

Sorry, got a bit distracted writing that previous post. 

Yes, I've achieved that in long-term relationships -- professional, personal, and intimate.  It doesn't seem any different for me today personally than it did twenty years ago. 

Most of us are not going to achieve physical "perfection" -- but we can be solidly in the right range.  There's a hell of a lot we can do to get there.  (The importance of voice is still deeply underrated.)  And once we've done what we can do, it's just a matter of getting out there and living the life. 

Socialization can take time.  Some of it is predicated on passing.  Absorb like a sponge.

So many get hung up on narrative, though.  So much depends upon what your personal truth is.  If your personal truth is that you're trans, a life of non-disclosure isn't going to be very satisfying in the long run.  Sorry, but being trans kind of depends on maintaining that narrative, either through physical gender variance or through storytelling.  On the other hand, if your personal truth is that you're on the binary, then non-disclosure makes a whole lot more sense, but then there's a lot more to... account for.  We have to go back and rummage around in all our memories, rebuilding them to reflect the truth of being on the correct side of the binary, and how that played into all our relationships and all our choices throughout our lives.  To do so with integrity can be challenging. 

Not that any of those stories are stories that will be told.  That's not the point.  The point is simply to get everything in your life to cohere, narratively speaking.  That's all.  It's a synthesis, an integration. 

And so we take that eidos and hold it close as we step out into the world.  It's amazing how far we can go with a modicum of confidence...

Thanks Sophia for your perspective. You are such a role model to me(not just because of your attitude towards stealth). Thanks again for your insight, it highly appreciated. I do struggle with not disclosing about trans status with people I develop deep connection with( thinking I am being dishonest). But at the same time, I am getting more and more comfortable with not disclosing as I am progressing further and further in this journey as that makes more sense to what I truly identify as..i.e female.

[Ypsf09]

I am very passable and have been living stealth for a very long time.... It can be a very lonely life... Hard to develop real new friendships...You'll be always hiding a part of u....And I agree that no matter how passable u r, someone sowhere can/ will clock u or betray u...U can still try to look pretty and dress well/ not average and not be clocked but the sexier, the sluttier or the more overdone ur make up etc d more likelihood that you'll get clocked.... Relationship wise you'll be paranoid... I try to go for d sweet ethereal girl next door aura look and I can say I think I am successful in living stealth but again it is a very lonely life...

Just curious, why has it been so lonely for you. Do u struggle making real connections due to not disclosing about your past. Now after years of stealth, do you still identify as a transwoman or just female. I remember you being from the LA area. So many transgirls there, did you not have luck finding some like urself? I have often thought about moving there since I feel very lonely(not because I am trans) in Denver but every time I come there, I meet so many cool people that I connect with them on so many level.

[Ypsf09]

I have often wondered is there many girls that live completely stealth without telling their long term partners, love to know how they deal with that, I would find that difficult, I live stealth now as a married woman but my husband does know, I told him before we got married, I pass perfectly, I don't stand out, at the shopping mall doing my grocery shopping nobody gives me a second glance, just another boring housewife.

I had read about some on Susan's, but imagine it would be tough. Did you tell ur husband after a while into dating?

[Ypsf09]

Clocking literally makes no sense to me.
When someones changed their gender marker on all their pieces of ID and mostly transitioned, what honestly do they have to fear from some random calling them out incorrectly? And I say incorrectly because biologically, legally, and visually, they ARE the gender they are presenting, who cares if they're not representing someone else's ideal for what they should be?

If someone raises a stink one day because I'm in the ladies room, and I'm confronted about what I'm doing in there my response is going to be; 'Changing my pad, *censored* off, I'm not in the mood!'

Well, I guess some of us are more fearless than others when it comes to people calling them out. For me, I have always been a very gentle, non confrontational, sensitive person and HRT has added a bit of anxiety into that. I feel I don't have any emotional/mental strength to put up with disrespectful bigoted people and I would rather not give them any opportunity to have a beef with me. I just want to have a pleasant experience as much as possible.

[Ypsf09]

I never understood why cis-gender women don't try to look their best.

Yepp, I prefer cis women of 1950/60s more than today's for that reason. But, woman in SoCal are generally good with keeping up and looking their best. I wish the whole country was like socal, women here in Denver <seem like> either they came back from a long hike or they are about to go on one. Lol

Moderator edit: To smooth out a potentially insulting phrase.

[Ypsf09]

I suspect it's more than 0.1%. What one sees depends very much on one's social, professional and economic status.

As I said in another post,  used to be a place where more than few such gathered that would not be instantly genders female in such situations... Experiencing that gives one a bit of a different perspective.

- karen

Karen,

I agree about the some from the lesbian crowd getting misgendered. Maybe because I identify as straight, I always unintentionally only focus on straight cis gendered woman.

[Ypsf09]

I'm four years in on HRT, to the month. By the end of year one, my then new friend and now boyfriend and future husband (fingers crossed) made love to me, rough, for the first time. From then one, we have sex on the reg. I am having surgery in a couple months; just waiting for my date. He might dump me if I didn't do it, since he does like vagina. But, he knew I was determined to do it, since you could offer me $10 billion to not have surgery and I would turn it down.

That's the end of the story and the beginning of a new one, which is going to be even better.

But, I pass. I pass all day. I pass everyday. I could wear a suit and no one would beleive I am a man, well I'm not, so why would they? My ID hasn't changed, so I guess it depends on your definition of "deep" stealth. They will be changed by October. I don't wanna mess with my insurance. It's paying for it.

No one has ever asked me on the street if I'm trans. Trans women don't think I'm trans. I'm sure there are plenty of people like me. Ok, sounds great. I also haven't had surgery or practiced my voice; I'm one lazy girl, as my BF tells me. But I do love too shop. Call it stereotypical. I spent half my life dreaming of being in a mall. Literally. I always dreamt I was in a mall, but I could never shop. Now, I shop all the time. But, i love fashion and beauty. Pe-transtion I was a fashion and beauty editor at a magazine. And maternity editor. It was a very manly job telling women's stories and playing with makeup so I could write about it. That money was supposed to be for SRS, but I couldn't pull the trigger, so I stuck it in my arm.

To start with, I have no adam's apple, none. Smoother than smooth. My hairline is kinda erratic and not high, like a woman's (I also have a widow's peak). I look like my sister's twin and was asked all the time if I was a "man." I'm also 5'5. When I started, my hair was in a fauxhawk; don't judge it was bada$$. So, one day, I won't lie I took a bunch of adderral and somehow ended up on the Before and After site. I was like hormones can do that. I ordered them (bad decision) online about five seconds after I heard you could. You have to understand I was battling a heroin addiction, as in past tense, and I was 30. Gay men wouldn't date me for being too femme, and same goes for staright women. I dated one woman who dumped me, or broke off the engagement, since I can't have sex much. Hence the heroin.

So I wouldn't have transtioned if I thought I wouldn't be able to pass at least some of the time. The whole trans pride movement wasnt big four, five years ago. Just wasn't.

I feel like this is TLDR, so I'll get to the point. In 2015, I went to rehab. In detox, they put me in my own room. In Rehab, they put me in an all women's facility. So, there was 25 women, all day, every day, looking at me. Once, someone mentioned to another girl that I prolly had massive amounts of surgery and did soemthing to my voice. How I would afford this being the brokest girl there, I don't know. Anyway, this also happened the same night I dead named myself (called myself by my very male name) in group. I was like I'm done. Put a fork in me. So, it was my roomate who told me this discussion about me happened. And all the girls told the other girl that there is no way in hell I was born a man. No way. Not with that body. She's to tiny. Her hands, Her feet (size seven in women's), her, well, evrything. My voice pitch registers at 207 in pitch on average when talking regularly. I could make it higher but why would I do that? I can't pass as myself on the phone. It's really annoying. My BF has to pass as me. It's actually kinda funny.

Anyway, I started crying and my one friend asked why the next day. She was like, yeah, I was there and, girl, those two are just straight up jealous. No one thinks you are trans, so don't worry. You're beautiful. It was never brought up again. So watch deanaming yourself. The main reason they thought I was trans: I have slightly athletic legs and shoulders. My shoulders are also 13" wide from bone to bone. That's narrow. I'm also a 32DD-27-35. But, I wish my butt was bigger. Oh well. I also have some pockmarks. Yuck. I has six sessions of laser a year ago. I still have some greys, about fifty, but I just pluck them, since it lasts for a month. Once I pluck, I can go one week without shaving. If I don't pluck, it goes down to three days. But I would still pass. I do it for me. The same reason I wear makeup. The same reason I'm having GCS. The same reason I love shopping. Because trying on really expensive dresses is awesome. I might go wedding dress shopping, but I have no friends, just my BF. But, that will change soon. Some personal stuff.

Also, people at that rehab, in Philly, hated transgender women. HATED. Including my roomate who cried when I left. And when we did giggles and bricks, every woman said something totally thought out and nice to me. It was AMAZING!! I mean I felt like I was queen.

So yeah, I'm cute. Adorable. But I'm not gorgeous. I'm not average or invisible. There is a bad side to passing. Some guy grabbed my vagina the other day. Yeah, I wont have SRS for like two months--by July, latest--but I don't have testes and my thing is like...its small. I'll be happier when it's filled with my BF's...yeah lol I became more femme throughout the years by virtue of everyone treating me like a woman and every guy saying hi to me if I make eye contact. But, I could leave the house looking like hungover garbage and I would still pass. I call that New Year's Eve, the same night my BF's Bestfriend's GF wanted to beat me up for smoking a pipe with him. I mean we're in Scranton, it's 10 degrees, what are we supposed to do. She was all like "You're in the car, with HER? Nothing is going on? Really with little miss perfect and pretty over here." I was bout to say "You think I'm pretty that's so sweet." But I din't want to get beat up. She was like 5'7. I'm actually 5'4.75 inches and 125 lbs. I'm really tiny. If Put up a picture you might think I'm being a little hyperbolic, but my camera has a 2 MP thingy, so I'm not photogenic.

But, I'm her to say: it is possible. It's possible. And if all the people on here who say it isn't and are such the authority on all thing's passing; I say I did it. And I'm not done. I'm going to have baby too. Not myself. Obviously. So, if you're thinking of taking hormones, I had a dream, literally, that I was in the mall in the mountains and I was with these two women, who were like sisters. We were shopping. And I had a vagina. I could feel it. Guess what? MY BF lives in the mountains (he is coming back to Philly tomorrow), and he has two sisters. In two months, I'll have a vagina. His family loves me. I got him clean, kinda. I got me clean. And my life rocks. I shop for dresses. Noone has called me "sir" in like four years. I can't even remember.

So it's possible. And dreams do come true. I'm proof, cause mine did, almost literally. Four years ago I was ready to die at 30; and now I can't wait to live the rest of my life as a woman, as me. It's not impossible, you don't have to be 12, or 20. I have condtion and my T levels were 134 when i started, but still. I could be YOU. I didn't think I could be either. But me and my awesome hair and boobs and clothes and hot a$$ BF (who used to play BB ball in college and whose thing tastes like YUM!) says wrong. Miracles do happen. Because I am one!

Bam!

(I hope I didn't offend anyone; just wanted to inject some hope into this thread.) I couldn't make this up. I"m still stunned. With a big smile on my pretty face!

Hi Spunky Brester,

I can relate with you in some ways. I have been on HRT for over two years now. Started in my mid twenties. I started being gendered as female at 3 months while still presenting as a gay male. I am cute, adorable and can be gorgeous with makeup and hair. Now I am a bit tall at 5"9 .5 but also have 36.5-23.5-39.5 figure at 134lbs with relatively long legs, much higher waist and shorter torso. My hands are very feminine, shoulders are feminine at 14 inches, underbust is 27. Now my feet are women's size 10(hopefully feet feminization surgery will bring them to 9 if not 8   .

I am obsessed with perfection and looking as good as possible, but dislike looking fake/cheap/plastic. Due to this, so far I have had:

1. BA with 400cc implants that made them go from B to a DD cup.
2. FFS(forehead, rhinoplasty,genioplasty)
3. BBL to make my butt/hips go from 36ish to 39.5.

My face looks feminine naturally even without makeup and hair pulled back. I was passing really well before all the surgeries, but I got them because of my own personal aesthetic and did want to stand out(not in a trans way) and look different than the average girl and well maybe become something more than just a average girl. But on the downside, I do now get a lot of attention(specially here in Denver where most girls are very granola/hippie type) that sometimes makes me very anxious. Good thing is my body is almost where I wanted it to be, more confidence, and I don't really care about guys because feel like they are dime a dozen.

Just like u and some others, I feel stealth is possible for me(unless I ruin it by getting more surgeries (unfortunately Pixie fox and Valeria lukyanova is who I look upto, though wouldn't want to look like that, but I do admire them a lot). But also feel, like my face is not as hyper feminine as someone like Jenna talackova and my waist contour as sharp as Valeria, may take chance at getting to that level.(maybe not I am not sure)

So despite all this, why did I post regarding this issue ?

1. I am a bit depressed recovering from my surgery that requires not sitting/sleeping on my back for 6 weeks thus also not going out, driving.
2. Unfortunately I have low self confidence(my mind is extremely self critical, always striving for perfection, but also optimistic ). Going out and people/strangers in general help me a lot with this through the attention/reaction they give me and making me feel like a female while also telling that I am a good looking one. But when i don't go out for a while, my mind takes over and brings out all the insecurities from being trans, like unless I have a Bambi face I am not going to have complete stealth.

3. While I was a bit insecure from not going out for weeks, I saw this YouTube video where the guy easily picked out women shown below as trans. Specially number 10 was shocking. In my mind, definition of stealth is when one has lived as female for a long time without no one, not even a single person suspecting or picking u out as trans that easily. And based on the video, it seemed like a really tough goal to acheive in general for the trans community(that desires stealth).

<Images Removed>

I am very happy for you and that your all your dreams are about to come true. Also think, in general 1) stealth/ 100% passing shouldn't affect ones decision to transition, since transitioning is not an option but our fate 2)  one should be very realistic about their stealth potential as it's not that easy to obtain if one doesn't transition early or has right genetics and/or has really good amount to money to spend on surgeries with the right surgeon(as looking fake hinders stealth).

Hope I didn't offend anyone, or come across as arrogant by posting my body stats. I just wanted people to know where I stand in my transition while asking the stealth question.

Moderator Edit: Images remove due to fair use. Origin not cited

[Angela Drakken]

Well, I guess some of us are more fearless than others when it comes to people calling them out. For me, I have always been a very gentle, non confrontational, sensitive person and HRT has added a bit of anxiety into that. I feel I don't have any emotional/mental strength to put up with disrespectful bigoted people and I would rather not give them any opportunity to have a beef with me. I just want to have a pleasant experience as much as possible.

See, to me, that's just it. Acceptance and awareness is one thing, we work up so much nerve in the first place to be out and be ourselves, living in 'stealth' to me seems almost like throwing myself back into a closet I worked so hard to get out of, and a conflict of logic. I personally don't need validation from every stranger I meet, I only need to be treated respectfully. When I'm not? Like you I am normally a sensitive and quiet, shy person, irl, but I can go full queen (censored) mode at the drop of a hat when I need to. lol

[Sophia Sage]

I do struggle with not disclosing about trans status with people I develop deep connection with (thinking I am being dishonest). But at the same time, I am getting more and more comfortable with not disclosing as I am progressing further and further in this journey as that makes more sense to what I truly identify as..i.e female.

It got a lot easier for me as time went by.  Not that I ever felt dishonest (I've always been clear about my truth), but early on I was always just kind of expecting the shoe to drop. 

It never dropped. In part because I never dropped it. It's like... it's like a hot potato, this narrative. Disclosure is like passing someone a hot potato. Without warning. It generally isn't done to relieve someone else, but to relieve ourselves. In other words, there's something every bit as selfish about disclosure or non-disclosure.

We get so used to telling a story of change, as opposed to a story of constancy, a story of essence. People don't really believe in change. They know it happens, but change is something that tends to be avoided as much as possible, with some changes accepted to avoid other changes entirely. So play to this! Make your narrative one about the same woman (the big change was that you used to be a little girl) over and over again making her choices to get through the world. 

2. Unfortunately I have low self confidence(my mind is extremely self critical, always striving for perfection, but also optimistic ). Going out and people/strangers in general help me a lot with this through the attention/reaction they give me and making me feel like a female while also telling that I am a good looking one. But when i don't go out for a while, my mind takes over and brings out all the insecurities from being trans, like unless I have a Bambi face I am not going to have complete stealth.

Confidence is pretty crucial to a life of practicing non-disclosure. 

(I highly recommend the semantics of "practicing non-disclosure" to "stealth" in this respect, actually.  The latter implies that you're hiding something, that you're a spy, that you don't really belong.  "Practicing non-disclosure," on the other hand, is simply a statement of praxis, what you are actively doing, and it doesn't actually depend on what other people think at all. Plus, it's kind of ironic. Anyways, I know "stealth" is the accepted nomenclature in our community, but I still greatly disagree with using the term.) 

It's not the Bambi face that saves the day, by the way.  In the end, it's an impeccable voice that saves the day. Voice is something that can reverse a clocking, first off, leaving people stumbling for an apology (which is rather telling of how cis people actually consider misgendering).  Second, and more important, it's through our voices that we socialize, tell stories and narratives, and develop long-term relationships. 

I was in line to vote last November, and it took a couple hours, which gave me time to look at people, as I'm wont to do.  Out of maybe 200 women, one had an unusual face so to speak, and she was kind of tall, maybe 5'8" or 5'9", but her voice was standard-issue female, and her stories were of her husband and kids.  Another woman was 6'4" or 6'5", very heavy set, but all the proportions were right and again the voice was a woman's voice.  On the other hand, what really made me do a double-take was a very short woman with a big belly and a very low and deep voice; I don't think a single word eclipsed 160Hz.  I looked and looked at her again upon hearing this voice, but there were nothing else to see but another woman.  Still, she's the one who really made me pause.

The face of Bambi can crumble if the voice of Lurch comes out of her mouth. 

3. While I was a bit insecure from not going out for weeks, I saw this YouTube video where the guy easily picked out women shown below as trans. Specially number 10 was shocking. In my mind, definition of stealth is when one has lived as female for a long time without no one, not even a single person suspecting or picking u out as trans that easily.

Okay.

Why are these women being picked out by some apparently "lucky" random dude engaged in ->-bleeped-<--spotting?  Better to ask, how did their pictures and likenesses end up getting put into this arrangement?  This is a narrative problem, not a physical one. 

In the real world, people see the whole person in action, and it's not a game of whack-a-mole. They hear someone speaking, and it changes everything. We have time to get know people. Conversations happen. Again and again.

This is what living a woman's life is really like, not posing on the internet for others to judge. 

[Sophia Sage]

See, to me, that's just it. Acceptance and awareness is one thing, we work up so much nerve in the first place to be out and be ourselves, living in 'stealth' to me seems almost like throwing myself back into a closet I worked so hard to get out of, and a conflict of logic.

The "closet" metaphor comes to us from the gay and lesbian community. It's about pretending to be straight when you're really not. The personal truth revealed is one of homosexuality.

We grew up pretending to be one gender when we're really the other.  We go through the same ritual of "coming out" when we transition -- but is the personal truth one of being "trans" or being the other gender?  There's no right or wrong answer to this, but it's a very important answer to get right, because IMO happiness depends on it. 

For me, with a personal truth of being female, the narrative of being trans is just another closet.

I personally don't need validation from every stranger I meet, I only need to be treated respectfully. When I'm not? Like you I am normally a sensitive and quiet, shy person, irl, but I can go full queen (censored) mode at the drop of a hat when I need to. lol

Respect is good.

It is not mutually exclusive of being gendered correctly all the time. 

It's not the strangers that matter.  For me, it's long-term relationships.

[Spunky Brewster]

For me, with a personal truth of being female, the narrative of being trans is just another closet.

...

It's not the strangers that matter.  For me, it's long-term relationships.

Do you own a hammer, cause you just hit the nail on the head. It is LTRs that matter. And, for me, I transitioned to be female, not to fly the trans flag. If that is what someone wants to do, it is a very lofty goal that I respect and admire, but some people, like me, just don't have it in them. I won't play The "who suffered more" olympics, cause everyone on this board knows suffering, but I just want to be happy. With my BF, he knows everything, but I just got lucky and feel like I hit some kind of fate jackpot. Money is money. But love...that's priceless.

[Spunky Brewster]

While I was a bit insecure from not going out for weeks, I saw this YouTube video where the guy easily picked out women shown below as trans. Specially number 10 was shocking. In my mind, definition of stealth is when one has lived as female for a long time without no one, not even a single person suspecting or picking u out as trans that easily. And based on the video, it seemed like a really tough goal to acheive in general for the trans community(that desires stealth).

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I am very happy for you and that your all your dreams are about to come true. Also think, in general 1) stealth/ 100% passing shouldn't affect ones decision to transition, since transitioning is not an option but our fate 2)  one should be very realistic about their stealth potential as it's not that easy to obtain if one doesn't transition early or has right genetics and/or has really good amount to money to spend on surgeries with the right surgeon(as looking fake hinders stealth).

Hope I didn't offend anyone, or come across as arrogant by posting my body stats. I just wanted people to know where I stand in my transition while asking the stealth question.

Yeah, I mean I totally agree that total stealth is very, very hard. I don't know if I really achieved it, because once you get to a certain point, you're just kind of accepted as a woman, if you're lucky. That guy my be some kind of savant of trans peeps. He has some kind of special transdar (they sell it at Wal-Mart!), but he also could have got lucky. IRL, he prolly wouldn't have picked out any of them. He had a 50 percent chance of getting each one right and I'm sure he thinks he is special and picks out cis women all the time.

If people aren't completely sure, they aren't going to say anything. For me, the only time anyone questioned me was after I basically outted myself. I was like "I am such an idiot. I talk in group and ruin my life." I woulda left if it didn't stop, and now I wouldn't be here, I'd be in heroin hell. But, then even after outting myself, people would not, could not believe that I was born with that useless appendage. No way. That gave me more confidence than you can imagine. Cause I was like, wow, I can out myself and people will think I got my own name wrong? Who gets their name wrong? But, yeah you sound beautiful and since you're passing as much as you are I would try to put that voice to rest. But, I know that voice and it still speaks to me. It's speaking to me now, saying you are a deluded windbag and everyone knows everywhere.

I hadn't gone out to a bar in ages before last November, but on the way out I get all dressed up and we went clubbing, but before I got some tequila in me, I was nervous as heck. I made my BF take me around cause I didn't have a hat. For some reason, I think my hair totally sucks, cause its only at my shoulders, and if I put the hat on I think I pass better. My BF was like "No one is going to know whatever you do, unless you tell them, but the hat...no." He hates that hat. But, now, I got one of those scrunchi simple bun thingies. It's bascially a mesh bagel that you pull your hair thought. WOW! I should be their spokeswoman cause I love it. I have the perfect bun now and after years of trying, I have finally done something awesome with my hair. Yeah, it's basic. But, basic can be beautiful. I tangent alot sorries...

Moderator edit: Images were removed from the post quoted. I edited the quote to match.

[denajtuk]

I have one thought on this. If other people don't like it, that's their problem. You have the right to be who you want to be, stealth or not. You be who you want to be, don't be who other people decide you are.

Sent with fondest thoughts

Dena

[lovelessheart]

Everyone gets clocked now . Even cis women. I live stealth.. and I'm not under 5'4 .I'm 5'8 but I'm reaaaaallly curvey. I haven't had any surgeries just the way things ended up . I don't get clocked. But I am looking to do ffs for personal reasons. However even before hormones, 7 years ago.. I was 17 . I was passing sometimes. Height doesn't really have much to do with it. But everyone is trans nowadays . Ive seen a coworker (who doesnt know I'm  trans) get clocked and she has 2 kids !! Lol

[Brooke]

I'm pretty sure I pass 100% of the time. In any kind of medical or legal situation where I have to put myself (lots of other health issues and recently got my new passport with correct gender marker) every person does a double take.

There is a lot of discussion about passing early on here. I wonder how many had male fail before starting any transition?

For most of my adult life I've had male fail with strangers about 80% of the time. Didn't matter what I wore, if I hadn't shaved, even filling out new patients info with Male being selected- 30% of the time they office staff would change it to Female. Still don't. I didn't understand how I could be in a nice button up shirt, tie, slacks and still get ma'amed. It makes me wonder how much of this is body language. I had to always intentionally lower my voice on the phone, otherwise I would be accused of not being me.

I think what I don't understand is how the facial hair, short male haircut, male clothing etc was completely ignored 80% of the time in public situations. Anyone else experience this pretransition?

I never did understand what it was about me that made people gender me as Female


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