Still waiting to feel male

[Sephirah]

Sorry for poking my nose in here, but I just wanted to offer something that I think about often.

It's very common to hear the questions "what does being who you are mean to you?" or "what is it that defines you?"

As someone who cannot transition, my options are extremely limited. And 95% of what people go through here to be themselves are things I cannot do, personally. So how do I feel like who I am? For me it comes in the small print. Doing things to make myself feel... normal... why is that? What is it that drives that feeling? I think about that a lot. And in the end, it's the wanting that is the answer. As painful as it is (and god knows it's unbearable some days), it's that pain which confirms everything for me. It's the... not being happy with my lot. It's the not settling, and saying "Just make the best of what you have. It would be so much easier."

I cannot do that. Not because I don't want to, but because it isn't me. As much as I wish it were. And I see the same thing echoed here so often. From everyone. Men, women, and every single point between. It's easy to accept what you have. To live in a world which accepts you for what it sees at face value. But it isn't you. It just isn't. And THAT... that is what makes you feel who you are. For me. Maybe I would feel differently if everything was hunky dory and I could live as myself, with no one knowing any different. Or maybe I wouldn't feel anything. Both results would be the same, I feel.

Maybe a lot of it is self image. Or something deeper. Something you can't get away from. Something inside you that makes you feel... if not good, then normal... every time you get acknowledged for who you are. Every little thing that makes the cacophony inside your head quiet down for just a while. Something that drives the constant maelstrom inside yourself when everything isn't right.

I sometimes feel that the single moment where you feel everything is right is that moment where you don't feel anything at all. Maybe that's just me. But I can't help feeling that... being seen as myself is a "well duh" moment, and everything else is a protest against it.

"Why do you hate not feeling like yourself?" That's the question I ask myself, more often than I like to think about. Not "Why do you feel like yourself?". The first I can answer. The second... I cannot.

[CMD042414]

I've hesitated to add to this discussion because I know my opinion is not a popular one in our community but I'm going to go ahead and do it. I completely understand trying to find what exactly it is that will make you feel male. Though I didn't have the difficulty you are having with being seen and read as a man early on (it was immediate for me), I know that when I transitioned I had specific things I knew I needed to see in myself before I felt like one.. And it was 100% about my appearance and how society viewed me. I needed to be read as a man all of the time. I needed to see my face change, hear my voice drop, grow facial hair, change my body by lifting weights, etc. Without a doubt that was what I needed to feel like a man. I hope for you that you see the masculinizing effects of T eventually. I hope that you will get to feel the pure zen of being seen as a man everyday of your life no matter what you wear or how you express yourself.

I think there is a split in the trans world. There are those of us, myself included, that are more or less binary and those that have more of an existential approach of I feel male therefore I am male no matter what. And again I know this will be met with much derision but it's just not that simple to me. If it were we wouldn't have to transition at all, we could merely pronounce our gender identity and be happy and content! There are things that make us this or that. Though I feel I was meant to be male I was not born that way. So I believe I cannot in turn define myself as such. To be male I'd need to have a penis, natural testosterone, specific chromosomes and such. I do not. Those are things that make a human male. But I am a man. I can alter my body to live as one. But I can't stand next to a cis guy and say I am male as you are. I'm just not. It's not that simple.

So what you are waiting for is to FEEL LIKE A MAN. And that can be achieved in so many ways. The T may take longer for you but changes will happen. How you dress, your hair, your body language can all help you feel like a man too though. Those are attainable. And every man gets to define what that means for himself on his own terms regardless of what society says.

That was a ramble.

[Kylo]

It's not that simple.

Hmm, I agree with you, which is why I define myself as a hybrid. I can't be a woman running on T, in these amounts - the body is told to start becoming male, shut down E, shut down female functions, drop voice, grow facial hair, grow muscles, etc. and that's not a 'functioning' woman, either. It ceases to look or sound distinctly female and goes as far as it can toward male that isn't stopped by limitations with body form. If a male is someone with natural T, so long as I take this thing, I have no E making me naturally continue to express female biological traits. After all, full sex and gender isn't just the X and Y's picked at conception but the maintenance of secondary sexual characteristics by ongoing production of hormones. If that stops, the person stops being a fertile male or female in the strict sense. Take a female body, fill it with male hormones continuously, and you no longer have a working female. You have female flesh and male 'fuel' and instructions running it. You have something that will begin to operate more male than female, even if not in entirety.

In that sense I'd say the end result of HRT is more male than female. The female aspect is in remission in the presence of male levels of T. It's missing a few key aspects of course, like making sperm; but weighing up, that's what I think - not forgetting not all males can make sperm and not all of them get born with perfectly-formed genitalia. So true enough - it's not that simple to call yourself a male, but also can no longer really call yourself a female either.

But I would expect others to disagree. It's a matter of what's important to a person. If definitions are important, they're important. That's what kept me from acting on transition for so damn long, though... so they're as much a hindrance as anything in my view. 

[The Flying Lemur]

For example, let's say I want to be a famous musician.

I don't think that's a great metaphor, actually.  Being a famous musician requires there to be an audience.  It's others' regard, not your own lived experience, that makes you "famous."  I don't think that being male requires an audience.  A guy who's alone, cut off from the world, is still a guy.  If it were others' perceptions that created maleness and femaleness, than a trans man who passes 100% of the time would be more of a "real man" than a feminine cis man who is often mistaken for a woman. 

I think of "maleness" as an identity, not a consensus public opinion.  Identities start and end from within.  I don't think "I" am my body, my clothes, my possessions, or anything else that's destructible.  "I" am the sum total of the experience that began in infancy and which will end upon my death. 

Now that said, I don't think your belief that "real maleness" is conferred on you by others is at all ridiculous.  Plenty of people think that--although I'd add the caveat that I think most people see their own gender as an indisputable part of themselves, but others' gender as being debatable by public opinion.  It doesn't make a lot of sense and it isn't very kind, but that's humanity for you.  I don't think my opinion on the subject of gender is ridiculous either, or Kylo's, that trans men are "hybrids."

I'd argue that whatever opinion is "right" is simply what gets you through the night.  It makes me comfortable to believe that my identity determines my gender.  I wouldn't transition if I didn't think that.  If my mind and my body are at war, it's my mind that should "win."  I used to think that my body determined what I was.  I spent decades dysphoric and spending money on therapists, trying to change the shape of my mind to match the organ between my legs.  It didn't work, and it made me miserable.

Kylo seems content with his belief that trans men are hybrid beings.  Good on him.

Your belief that others confer "real maleness" on you seems to be making you unhappy.  Why would you do that to yourself?  Most cis people who swear up and down that anatomy alone determines femaleness and maleness judge their own gender "realness" by existential criteria.  "How do I know I'm a real man?  I dunno . . . I just . . . am.  Always have been, always will be.  What a question!"

How you decide to think about things is up to you, of course.  It just seems to me that you're making yourself unhappy for no reason.   

[Berserk]

Thanks for the replies so far. It's good to know I'm not the only one that struggles with this concept.

I see a lot of trans guys, especially on Tumblr and such, that emphatically declare "I'm a guy" even if they are pre-everything, and refuse to acknowledge that there is anything female about them, which I find kinda crazy. One of them even was completely dolled up in a dress and makeup with no binder, nothing, looked completely female and still was tagging the pic with "ftm" and stuff. I sometimes wonder how they can be so confident about their maleness even when they seem to be doing nothing "male" at all, and here I am, actually taking T and presenting as male 100% of the time (even if I don't pass, I still always wear men's clothing, etc), and yet -I'm- the one still doubting if I can say I'm male.

I guess it all boils down to: what does it really mean to be male? We can't say it's just a feeling. Because then it becomes meaningless, doesn't it? So far, my opinion is that it HAS to be a physical thing more than anything else. Because as we all know, there are no personality traits or behaviors that are 100% male or even masculine, and there are plenty of ultra-feminine acting men that still identify as male, or ultra-masculine women that identify as female.

They're able to say "I'm a guy" most likely because they are more comfortable with themselves than you are with yourself. And that's what it comes down to. I think we all start off or perhaps keep dealing with internalised transphobia that makes us feel as though we're just a joke, that we aren't really what we feel we are etc. There is no concrete answer to what it "really" means to be male unless you simply resign yourself to accepting what it means to a large part of cis society: being born with a male reproductive system. Personally, if I resigned myself to that I would not be able to live with myself. You can consider me delusional or whatever you want, but I need to be me. At the same time I'm also perfectly happy to acknowledge that I'm not the same as a cis guy, and in that sense I do see trans guys as different than cis guys, a different kind of guy but still a guy. Being different doesn't necessarily mean you're not a guy. For me I just do what I need to do to be comfortable in my own skin. I know that being called female/woman/she etc. absolutely does not make me feel comfortable in my own skin, same with the idea of being called gender neutral or essentially anything other than male (or trans male). Those folks you're talking about are doing what makes them feel comfortable in their skin, and if that makes them feel validated as male then good on them. So its between living your life and feeling comfortable with yourself identifying as male simply because that's how you identify, or accepting that only a male reproductive system will ever make you male. I can't really see how there can be an inbetween.

I do think there are differences between male and female brains, but are those differences absolute?

Probably not. If I'm honest, I tend to think that that "difference between male and female brains" thing is something lots of us try to cling to to feel more validated. Ultimately, even between cis men/women, I don't see there being a definitive difference in the way men and women think beyond what could be attributed to socialisation.

I don't know, and if they're not, then it has to be about physicality more than anything else. We wouldn't transition if it wasn't about our appearance. If we really believed that male bodies and female bodies were the same (which would obviously be a delusion), then transition wouldn't even exist. Transgender PEOPLE wouldn't exist. Because a woman could act just as masculine as any man if she wants to, she could dress in men's clothing, she could take on the male gender role in society, etc...Being trans, then, HAS to be about our self-image of our bodies and faces.

I get the impression you want a neat and tidy explanation when there's not. Trans people (or the equivalent of trans people as far as the existence of people who were born with the reproductive system of one sex but living as the other sex) were living as their identified sex long before there was even the technology to "medically" transition. Was Billy Tipton a trans man? He certainly lived the majority of his life as a man without any kind of surgery nor hormones. And he certainly wasn't the only one. One of the things that helped him and others pass was that before recently female and male clothing was quite different without much cross over. It was easier to be seen as just a man with a baby face before there was as much social acceptance of queer people. Queer and trans identities are messy because human identities are messy.

People forget that it's only in this century that male and female casual wear really started to look very different, like suits and dresses. Historically in a lot of places, clothes for both genders weren't all that different, things like togas/pallas and kimonos/yutaka etc. had minimal differences. The idea of dress-like clothes on guys doesn't seem that weird to me, been to places where the men wear long dress-like outfits all the time. I suppose - I'll admit - that when I had to wear dresses as a kid, they were not uncomfortable to wear, in fact, more comfortable in many ways than pants. The problem came ironically when I wore them later that I felt very bizarre in them - very much "on display" and for whatever reason personally felt I must have looked ridiculous. I was told I didn't - but I mentally pictured a grizzly wearing a tutu and that was that, never again, lol. For those who don't mind or don't have a problem with it, more power to them.

I think the bolded part here falls once more into the category of things trans people tell themselves to try to validate ourselves. Please tell me that that was a typo and that you didn't actually mean that Italians only stopped wearing togas in every day wear in the last century I can't speak for East Asian nations, but in Europeans nations and most places I can think of, men's and women's clothing were quite distinct. Its only relatively recently that the kind of cross over we see in men's and women's clothes today has become acceptable on a larger scale. Its why it was easier for gender non-conforming people to pass better, in some ways, in the past than today. It was often assumed that if you had short hair, dressed in men's clothing then you'd most likely be taken as a man. Similarly if you had long hair styled in a "female" style, without evident facial hair and wore women's clothing you'd most likely be taken for a woman.

There's a difference between wanting to be a guy and actually being one though, which is kind of my whole point. As you are now, you wouldn't qualify for any male-specific activities/clubs or be treated as a guy by 99% of society.

Alright, let's go down that path then. What is the difference between "wanting" to be a guy and "being a guy"? Or maybe look at it this way, do you see trans guys as simply "wanting to be guys" or "actually guys" because that's how we identify? Were we born as we are or do we become guys? I suspect the answer is different from person to person. As a young kid I always secretly considered myself a guy, I just didn't tell anyone for fear of being humiliated. But that didn't stop me from preferring boy's clothing (and luckily I had a mother who was previously a tom boy herself so she was pretty accommodating), collecting hockey cards, playing sports, and preferring to hang out with other boys. And maybe that's where things might come clearer for you. For me I don't think its ever been about "wanting" to be a guy. If anything its always been a journey toward wanting to be myself, feeling comfortable as myself, and that self could never feel comfortable being identified as female. Honestly even the pain of being mispronouned, for me, is better than the pain of trying to adopt a female identity. Even the physical changes I have taken have been more for myself and my own feeling of comfort with myself than simply for the sake of passing. I had top surgery around five years ago now and that made an astronomical difference in my ability to feel comfortable in my own skin. I'm still not on hormones though but I haven't allowed that to stop me from living my life as a guy. So there comes that comfort thing again, and perhaps that's what you need to learn for yourself.

About the activities/clubs thing. The good thing about times changing is that gender segregated spaces are becoming more accepting of trans people. Many male spaces are lagging behind female spaces for that, yes, but short of competing in professional sports/levels leading to professional sports technically trans people now have the right to belong to clubs/activities for the gender they identify as. Here in Ontario, for example, its also technically illegal to discriminate against trans people according to our provincial human rights code.

Now maybe it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, and we should all just say "screw it" and do whatever we want, because the world is absurd and will end in another few billion years anyway. But that doesn't really make it easier for me to do the mental gymnastics required to arrive at the conclusion that I already -am- male or that I ever truly will be.

So maybe I'll have to settle for something else. Like acknowledging that I'm a woman that, for whatever reason, would rather look like and live as a man even if I'm not one. But this would probably lead to the same feelings of being a fraud. Being thought to be something by others and by society that isn't reality.

If that's what you feel you need to do, dude, that's up to you. Personally I wouldn't be able to live like that. Even as a kid when I would never mention feeling male to anyone, at least it was something I felt I "knew" within myself. So personally I living a life where I consider myself a woman living as a man would be one that goes against every instinct I've ever had. But again, we all need to do what makes sense to us and what makes us feel comfortable. So if you do feel like a woman living as a man, more power to you. If not, do yourself a favour and challenge yourself to start feeling comfortable with who you are instead of being so focused on what others will think or say. We only have one life, better not to waste it giving in to our fears.

[Kylo]

I think the bolded part here falls once more into the category of things trans people tell themselves to try to validate ourselves.

My point was directed at Flying Lemur about the men wearing dresses taboo. Because yes, historically, men have worn things that resembled dresses and skirts, all over the place. Society's view on what is manly attire is fickle.

Please tell me that that was a typo and that you didn't actually mean that Italians only stopped wearing togas in every day wear in the last century

I said historically. As in ancient culture.

I can't speak for East Asian nations, but in Europeans nations and most places I can think of, men's and women's clothing were quite distinct. Its only relatively recently that the kind of cross over we see in men's and women's clothes today has become acceptable on a larger scale. Its why it was easier for gender non-conforming people to pass better, in some ways, in the past than today. It was often assumed that if you had short hair, dressed in men's clothing then you'd most likely be taken as a man. Similarly if you had long hair styled in a "female" style, without evident facial hair and wore women's clothing you'd most likely be taken for a woman.

Not sure what you are arguing here with me for. That's what I implied, in the past it was easier in some places, and plenty of cultures accepted long hair on both men and women. I would not be surprised if the change in styles the last few centuries was a result of the practicality of people being able to get regular haircuts and to take professions that didn't require backbreaking work. They could afford to present more differently with time and money and new living conditions. I believe Flying Lemur got my gist. 

[The Flying Lemur]

Yeah, Kylo's comments on clothing history were in response to me saying I was wearing a dress.  I have a streak of gender ****ery in me and I find it amusing to do things I'm not supposed to do. 

Carry on with the discussion about the criteria we use to decide who is a "real man" though.  It's very interesting. 

I also wanted to add an asterisk to what I posted above: people also often add roles and values to their descriptions of why they feel they should qualify as a certain gender: "I'm a man because I've always felt male.  I work hard to care for and protect my family, and I try to always do what's right."  There probably are cis guys who would say, "I'm a man because I have a penis," but I think a lot of people would be dissatisfied with such a reductionist reply.

[Berserk]

My point was directed at Flying Lemur about the men wearing dresses taboo. Because yes, historically, men have worn things that resembled dresses and skirts, all over the place. Society's view on what is manly attire is fickle.

I said historically. As in ancient culture.


Not sure what you are arguing here with me for. That's what I implied, in the past it was easier in some places, and plenty of cultures accepted long hair on both men and women. I would not be surprised if the change in styles the last few centuries was a result of the practicality of people being able to get regular haircuts and to take professions that didn't require backbreaking work. They could afford to present more differently with time and money and new living conditions. I believe Flying Lemur got my gist.

I'm not sure why you see this as an "argument" rather than a discussion. No hostile intents on my end. Just to clear confusion, I'll requote what you wrote:

"People forget that it's only in this century that male and female casual wear really started to look very different, like suits and dresses. Historically in a lot of places, clothes for both genders weren't all that different, things like togas/pallas and kimonos/yutaka etc. had minimal differences. The idea of dress-like clothes on guys doesn't seem that weird to me, been to places where the men wear long dress-like outfits all the time."

It made the rest to sound as though you were referring to the last century. Although the whole "suits and dresses" thing is also not true regardless. The equivalents of "suits and dresses" have existed for centuries now, it's not a change that occurred in the last century. On top of that, yes certain skirt (predominantly) or dress-like attire did/does exist among men, I come from such a culture myself (Greek). However, it's also worth nothing that any "skirt-like" wear worn by men in those cultures was still distinct from women's clothing. That's an important distinction to make because otherwise it sounds as though gendered clothing simply didn't exist just because a skirt or dress-like garment exists/existed for men. A fustanella in Greek culture or kilt in Scottish culture do resemble women's skirts, but those specific skirts would never be worn by women in their respective cultures.

Its not simply about nitpicking, it's just that I notice in the trans community we often adopt certain things as "facts" without looking at the whole truth, overexaggerate the prevalence of certain things. Then that gets perpetuated and people seem to call it truth or frequent occurrence only because it acts as a "tool" for us to combat modern transphobia and to help us gain a better understanding of our own identities and where we fit. The things is, if we're going to do that we should be sure that it's based on fact and not misrepresentation, otherwise we can easily be caught out by those in cis society who are only looking for more reasons to deny trans identity as valid in anyway.

Again to be clear, is this me saying that there is something wrong with men (cis or trans) wearing conventionally female dresses? No. Hell most drag queens around here are cis men who don't crossdress outside their drag personas. Is gendered wear fickle as you call it, yep I agree with that too. This was basically just a response as far as the "well kilts exist so..." thing doesn't really ad up when you look at cultural context. That's it, that's all. And again, not meant as being argumentative, from my perspective it's just a discussion.

[Kylo]

That's it, that's all. And again, not meant as being argumentative, from my perspective it's just a discussion.

Sounds like you suggest I misrepresent facts and truth because I say fashion is changeable. I never said gendered clothing wasn't a thing at any point.

What are you worried about?

[Bacon]

They're able to say "I'm a guy" most likely because they are more comfortable with themselves than you are with yourself.

More comfortable in their delusions, maybe. Or just girls that think it's trendy or somehow empowering to say they're guys when they aren't and aren't even trying to live or look like them. Maleness and femaleness will cease to have meaning at all if ANYONE can say they are either without even looking the part.

There is nothing anyone can say that will convince me that maleness and femaleness are not directly, inextricably connected to physicality. When people say that gender and sex shouldn't be conflated, it's pure nonsense. A trans man wouldn't say he identifies with the male gender unless he was thinking of wanting the body of the male sex, or the characteristics associated with the male sex. Gender and sex may not be the same but they have to be extremely closely linked or else maleness and femaleness lose all their meaning entirely. My current opinion is that "gender" is the "sex" you want to be and "sex" is the "sex" you actually are.

At the same time I'm also perfectly happy to acknowledge that I'm not the same as a cis guy, and in that sense I do see trans guys as different than cis guys, a different kind of guy but still a guy. Being different doesn't necessarily mean you're not a guy.

That's good but you're one of the few trans guys I've met that actually acknowledge that we're not the same as cis guys. Many deny that they are female at all, which doesn't make any sense.

Those folks you're talking about are doing what makes them feel comfortable in their skin, and if that makes them feel validated as male then good on them.

I think these types of people have done more harm than good for the trans community. Many of them are just teenage girls that are playing around with labels to feel different and unique. They think that they can suddenly be men, the holy grail!, as long as they say they are. If society thought we were jokes before, they have much more reason to think it now, with people identifying as demiboys or demigirls or non-binary or insisting on being called he/him even when they present 100% female, etc.

That's why I'm currently in favor of a more honest, logical, realistic, non-delusional approach. I think that I could support other trans men more, as well as myself, if we all just acknowledged the reality of the situation: we're women that want to be men. To deny that we're women, to deny that we're female, to insist that we are 100% male and just as male as any cis guy...to me, it absolutely borders on (if not flat-out characterizes) delusional insanity.

There MUST be a logical basis for our claims. Whether it's the male brain thing, or having a male self-image, whatever. To say we "feel" male doesn't cut it. There is no such thing as feeling male. Feeling stereotypically masculine? Sure. Again, not the same thing as being male. There are many, many women that feel more masculine than feminine. They're still not male.

So let's take an extremely masculine woman and a feminine pre-everything trans man. The woman likes repairing cars, cutting wood, is the strong and silent type, speaks in a flat tone of voice, sees the world logically, hates shopping, etc. The feminine pre-everything trans man likes working with children, hates getting dirty, chats endlessly with friends, loves buying clothes, and is extremely sensitive and emotional.

How can we say that the second one is male? Where's the basis for it? This is a person that operates on E, has a totally female body, female personality, female behaviors, female interests...

And so how can that person say "I'm a guy"?

It must be about the physical body this person wants. What else COULD it be about?

But then it comes back to "wants" vs "HAS". I don't believe it's enough to just want something and claim you already have it when you don't.

Could I say I'm a blond even though I'm a brunette and haven't dyed my hair? Maybe I want to dye it. Maybe after I do, I could say I'm blond. But right now? Can I say I'm a blond even though my hair is clearly brown?

Probably not. If I'm honest, I tend to think that that "difference between male and female brains" thing is something lots of us try to cling to to feel more validated. Ultimately, even between cis men/women, I don't see there being a definitive difference in the way men and women think beyond what could be attributed to socialisation.

I definitely disagree. Pretty much all the men and women I've ever known act and think in different ways, many of which seem hard-wired. These are men and women from different cultures, backgrounds, upbringings, etc. And if socialization were the only factor, then all of us trans men would think and act more femininely than we naturally do, because that's how we were raised and socialized. Instead, we resist that socialization because our brains are telling us differently.

But if you don't think there are differences in male and female brains, are you saying that you have a female brain and a female body but are a male? If so, if you think you have a female brain, then why do you think you would prefer to have a male body?

Alright, let's go down that path then. What is the difference between "wanting" to be a guy and "being a guy"? Or maybe look at it this way, do you see trans guys as simply "wanting to be guys" or "actually guys" because that's how we identify?

I see trans guys as women that want to be guys. Biologically speaking, there is no way that trans guys are already actually guys, and to say otherwise is, again, delusional. Now if we were able to transition fully--hypothetically speaking, let's say that we were able to take T and it would magically remove our breasts, close our vaginas, and give us working penises--then hey, I'd be fine with FULLY TRANSITIONED trans guys saying they're guys. But that's not reality and probably never will be.

Were we born as we are or do we become guys? I suspect the answer is different from person to person. As a young kid I always secretly considered myself a guy,

What does it mean to consider yourself a guy though? You knew you didn't have a penis...

So you considered yourself a "person with a penis" even though you knew you didn't have one?

I just didn't tell anyone for fear of being humiliated. But that didn't stop me from preferring boy's clothing (and luckily I had a mother who was previously a tom boy herself so she was pretty accommodating), collecting hockey cards, playing sports, and preferring to hang out with other boys.

Again, these are all things that many masculine women can relate to, and even some feminine women.

I had top surgery around five years ago now and that made an astronomical difference in my ability to feel comfortable in my own skin. I'm still not on hormones though but I haven't allowed that to stop me from living my life as a guy. So there comes that comfort thing again, and perhaps that's what you need to learn for yourself.

And what does it mean to live your life as a guy? It must be about being seen and treated by others as a guy. Otherwise, what does it mean? You go home at night and still know you have a vagina and almost certainly a feminine body besides not having breasts since you're not on T. There are women that have had mastectomies. They're not living their lives as guys though.

About the activities/clubs thing. The good thing about times changing is that gender segregated spaces are becoming more accepting of trans people. Many male spaces are lagging behind female spaces for that, yes, but short of competing in professional sports/levels leading to professional sports technically trans people now have the right to belong to clubs/activities for the gender they identify as.

I don't think this is a good thing. There should be some benchmarks that trans people have to meet in order to belong to single-sex clubs or sports; for example, one year on hormones. How annoying would it be to be a football team of cis guys, for example, that suddenly have to welcome a girl and act as if she's one of them. Suddenly they'd have to accommodate her weaknesses, they wouldn't be able to participate in guy talk anymore, they'd censor their speech, the whole group dynamic would change. Same for a group of women that have to welcome a guy. I think there is value in sex-separated organizations that will be taken away if everything becomes mixed gender.

So if you do feel like a woman living as a man, more power to you.

Well, how can I not? How can any of us not? We -are- women living as men. No, I don't want to identify as a woman, but I kinda HAVE to, seeing as I have breasts, a vagina, a uterus, curves, no penis, etc. Those are the characteristics of a woman. I don't get how any of us can deny that.

Yes, it hurts to think of myself as a woman but at least it's REAL. At least it's honest. It's acknowledging the truth, which is a painful truth, but still the truth: I was born with a female body and am now changing it to become more masculine. I still doubt if I'll ever be able to make it "male" though.

If not, do yourself a favour and challenge yourself to start feeling comfortable with who you are instead of being so focused on what others will think or say. We only have one life, better not to waste it giving in to our fears.

It has nothing to do with what others think or say though. If the entire world started reading me as male TOMORROW, it wouldn't change the fact that I know I'm not. I'd still have to be the one to go home, take off my clothes, and acknowledge that I don't have a male body, and that my life as a man is merely a performance.

If it were others' perceptions that created maleness and femaleness, than a trans man who passes 100% of the time would be more of a "real man" than a feminine cis man who is often mistaken for a woman.

A trans man that passes 100% of the time COULD be more of a "real man" when it comes to how he's treated in society. But the feminine cis man will always know he's more of a "real man" when it comes to biological reality.

I think of "maleness" as an identity, not a consensus public opinion.  Identities start and end from within.  I don't think "I" am my body, my clothes, my possessions, or anything else that's destructible.  "I" am the sum total of the experience that began in infancy and which will end upon my death. 

But what does that identity mean? When you say "I'm male", what on earth are you referring to if NOT your body?

Your belief that others confer "real maleness" on you seems to be making you unhappy.  Why would you do that to yourself?

It's not that I believe that others confer it on me. It's my own perception, my own self-knowledge that I don't have the parts that can make me a "real male".

And why would I make myself unhappy like this? Because I believe so strongly in truth, reality, objectiveness, and logic. I can't be truly happy if I believe how I'm living my life, the things I say about myself, the way people treat me, etc are based in delusion and lie. I WISH I could. Believe me, I wish I could be one of those people that just bases everything off their feelings and looks for no objective justification and lives in a merry land of rainbows, but that's not me.

Most cis people who swear up and down that anatomy alone determines femaleness and maleness judge their own gender "realness" by existential criteria.  "How do I know I'm a real man?  I dunno . . . I just . . . am.  Always have been, always will be.  What a question!"

If they answer like that, that's only because they're not even considering that the biological facts are being questioned. They know they're male because they have penises, testes which produce testosterone and make them grow up as boys, turn into men, etc. That's all taken for granted, so then they start looking for more existential criteria.

[Kylo]

just acknowledged the reality of the situation: we're women that want to be men.

Some of them want to be men. I don't recall ever wanting to be a man. Far as I could see in my family, men got the short end of the stick and were expected to do almost everything, deal with anything, and have a smile on their face about it. Nothing about being male appeals so much I'd go through any of this crap on a whim. But there are people who do just want to play around, I suppose. Some say they give us a bad name and belittle our situations. But if you had to explain this to a cis person - most people - you think they're going to understand a perspective of seeking maleness while insisting you're female? They wouldn't get it.

To deny that we're women, to deny that we're female, to insist that we are 100% male and just as male as any cis guy...to me, it absolutely borders on (if not flat-out characterizes) delusional insanity.

Yeah. I wouldn't make that claim to a doctor or a scientist. But still, serves no purpose in everyday life to the guy on the street laboring the point so hard. Better they not know at all than be fed the existential details. Might do you good, but probably not anyone else.

But to go back some...

Now you've set down your beliefs, do you think you'll ever feel male? That's not going to come, is it, since you're fundamentally female. Are you waiting to feel an approximation? Or to just feel "different"? If you haven't felt it already, will you ever? And if you do, will you pass it off as self delusion?

[The Flying Lemur]

Just out of curiosity, Bacon, if you're 100% sure that anatomy is destiny, why bother to transition?  If the body is ascendant and you will always, always be female, then why not work at changing your thoughts and feelings to match your physical self?  There are therapists who will attempt to accomplish that.  Lord knows I've paid some of them.  It didn't work, but I tried.       

[David1987]

Probably one of the reasons why I will never fit in the trans community is because I fail to see the importance of the body. I understand that it modifies our confidence, and it's allright if people want to change their bodies to feel better about themselves. But that should be the reason, to feel better about yourself. You are changing your body FOR YOURSELF, not for anyone else, and certainly not for society. If you feel fine without changing your body or you find other ways around the issue, so be it, nothing wrong with that either.

If being male and female is all about sex organs, then virgin men and women would be exactly the same. Sure, hormones can alter how we feel... ultimately other things can as well. The problem is the expectations society puts on people for having a certain body. Feeling like a man is feeling that the expectations that are usually attributed to people with a certain body, fit us. Do we need to have a certain body for that? not really. Of course, the expectation of being able to make someone pregnant won't happen. So what? if you have a uterus and don't get pregnant for whatever reason, the expectation society puts on you for having a uterus won't happen either.
Feeling that we fit expectations or not is a feeling. Only the person themselves know how they feel. If someone says they are male but acts in a way I consider feminine I have two options 1) Acknowledge what they say and treat them accordingly (which in reality is just using a different pronoun and name, I treat people by the way I feel about them, not to what sex or gender they are) 2) Being stubborn and keep using their biological sex pronoun. I don't see how the second option would be beneficial for anyone. What point would I be trying to prove by doing that? "You're not a real man?", in the end... who cares? You can say you are whoever you want, whether it's a man, a timelord or a cat, I' m not going to convince you of reality, since reality itself is subjective, I will treat you by how you are as a person and the things you do, which could be related to who you say you are, or not.

Do I go around telling people "Hey, I' m male"? No, I just am the way I am, people can tell. If they can't or they don't want to listen, I' m not going to bother with them, it's their problem, not mine, and it's exhausting trying to convince people who decide on being blind and deaf. I feel a bit sorry for the people who misgender me, since they can't see beneath the surface. At the same time, I raise my esteem for the people who gender me correctly, since they can perceive beyond it. I do not tell anyone what pronouns to use or what gender I am except I' m especifically asked.

If someone feels then that they are not a real man because they don't have a penis/ they don't have children/they don't have muscles/ a girlfriend/ they are a capricorn. Well, probably nothing I say will convince them otherwise, but I would encourage them to explore their psyque better and stop torturing themselves with what they think they are not and instead focus on what they think they are or in what they can realistically become in their expectations. If someone tells me that they are a man but they don't have a penis/children/muscles/a girlfriend/ are a capricorn, and that's in contradiction with my beliefs of what a man is, then it is in no way constructive to express those concerns to them.

[CMD042414]

Is being a man just about feeling like one? I think it's also experiencing life as one. And you cannot do that in a vacuum. We are all part of a larger societal framework. If you identify as a man but do not appear to be a man, do you still expect to be able to go to male spaces? If so then it is not simply about how one feels. I won't have a penis until next year and no, I cannot reproduce but I without look and sound like a dude. As such I am able to live freely as one.

Think of any other aspect of identity. Take race. I'm black. There's this lady named Rachel Dolezal who for years had been telling people she's​ black. She is actually white. But she feels like a black woman. So she took steps to look like one. No one had a clue until her story was revealed by her parents. Now what if she told folks she identifies as a black woman but did not change her hair or tan her skin? Is that enough? Can you walk through life and just declare yourself as an identity that you aren't? Where is the line drawn? I don't know the answer. I have no right to answer that for anyone. It's all very complicated.

I used Rachel Dolezal as an example that is similar but has many differences, I'm aware. I know someone is going to take umbrage with that.

[David1987]

Is being a man just about feeling like one? I think it's also experiencing life as one. And you cannot do that in a vacuum. We are all part of a larger societal framework. If you identify as a man but do not appear to be a man, do you still expect to be able to go to male spaces? If so then it is not simply about how one feels. I won't have a penis until next year and no, I cannot reproduce but I without look and sound like a dude. As such I am able to live freely as one.

So far I haven't been secluded from doing anything I wanted to do, I' m not taking hormones or doing anything. As far as "male spaces" are concerned, I can only really think of bathrooms and locker rooms. I see no difference in my life for using the female bathrooms and locker rooms, although I do understand it would be awkward if I was taking hormones, and even without taking them, I get yelled at or corrected sometimes for using the girl's bathroom. I am, therefore, pro a gender neutral bathroom, as I' m pro gender neutral everything really. Dividing bathrooms and locker rooms by gender for safety reasons just assume that everyone is straight. As for showers/locker rooms, I don't think people should shower together, no matter what gender or sex they are, that's just... weird. There should be cubicles for everyone.
As for other male spaces, like the boy scouts for example, they should become mixed, like in other countries, I don't see the need to divide them by gender. In Argentina it's just "Scouts of Argentina", boys and girls are together.
I really don't care how people look, honestly, I only care how I feel about them, which is mainly influenced by how they act. If someone is Chinese but wants to fight for Argentina and make it a better country, why should I be against it? How is stating "No, you are Chinese, you can't" beneficial for anyone? If they feel they belong to our team it's more constructive to let them be than to segregate them.

[Kylo]

...We could start talking about people who identify as dragons and wolves, which I am not going to do as it doesn't belong here, but the trans phenomenon does have some physical scientific evidence in hormone expression and brain structure to support the idea it's a problem with a physical origin, and only "mental" in the sense it is "felt" in the brain rather than being some visible ailment of an external body part. It's not just a "feeling" if it is proven to have cause of some kind in genes, hormonal imbalances or brain structure, is it?

[CMD042414]

I do think single use, gender neutral everything should be a standard for bathrooms, changing areas, showers etc. It's well past time to do that.

[Kylo]

But it feels like the public consensus is moving the opposite way. Lots of people out there wanting to label men as inherently sexist, born rapists. As long as they've got people believing that, they'll demand more segregation in bathrooms and special "safe spaces" for women away from men. Not many people seem keen on the idea of neutral anything.

[Kylo]

I noticed the OP made the topic further down the page called "internalized transphobia" and reading back over the opening post for that it sounds like your problem is exactly the same still - you don't want to believe you're anything but female, and we do not have the right to call ourselves men. That's your firm belief that you are actively choosing to believe over anything else. And you're waiting to feel male? That does not make much sense to me.

We can't really help you. The problem is being caused in no small part by your own perspective and unwillingness to budge from it, it seems. Some people would suggest seeing a therapist but I know this one has to come from inside yourself and your own philosophy, if any change is going to happen. Either that, or learn to stomach your own philosophy that you are a woman 'playing' a man?

[TransAm]

I noticed the OP made the topic further down the page called "internalized transphobia" and reading back over the opening post for that it sounds like your problem is exactly the same still - you don't want to believe you're anything but female, and we do not have the right to call ourselves men. That's your firm belief that you are actively choosing to believe over anything else. And you're waiting to feel male? That does not make much sense to me.

We can't really help you. The problem is being caused in no small part by your own perspective and unwillingness to budge from it, it seems. Some people would suggest seeing a therapist but I know this one has to come from inside yourself and your own philosophy, if any change is going to happen. Either that, or learn to stomach your own philosophy that you are a woman 'playing' a man?

^ Thank you. Thank you x 39828209440728473.
I remember that old post and then I saw this one pop up. A ton of helpful things have been posted both in this thread and the other one and the ongoing problem is that you're wholly unwilling to listen or alter your current perspective in any way.

You have one of two options:
1. Continue feeling like a woman playing 'pretend'.
2. Open your ears, listen, realign your perception and possibly derive some enjoyment from your existence.

Nothing anyone has said to you has been met with anything but counteraction. You're completely closed off because you want to be in that familiar headspace. I feel for you because that has to be a ****** place to be, but you've got to open your mind a bit.
This merry-go-round of 'let's present a question and then violently deflect every helpful response' isn't really doing anything for anyone.