Can Someone Explain Something To Me?

[dusty97]

Okay, so I really don't want to sound like an insensitive prick, but I'm just really not sure how to respond to/ feel about this situation I was in.

I'd been going out with this girl for a few dates and the inevitable eventually happened- we ended up together in her room.

so there we were, and I find out that she hadn't gone fully through transition yet/ hadn't decided what she was going to do with that aspect of her body, and was intending to still use it for it's intended purpose. I'm pre-op FTM and not into the male anatomy in a sexual partner- I'm into the female type, all around.  This situation unfolded:

"Look I really don't think I want this."
"But I thought you liked me?"
"I do like you, but THAT's just not what I want."
"It's okay, just try it."
"No, thanks, I don't want it." *getting dressed now* "I think we need to talk about this."
"What is there to talk about? You either want me or you don't."
"Okay, then I don't."
She's getting a little put-out now. "Could you at least tell me why then?"
"Because you have a d***. I'm not into that."

She proceeds to get upset with me and the fact that I didn't want that, since I had liked her before I knew. She feels like it shouldn't make a difference what "parts" she has down there. She proceeds the next day to send me a nasty message about being tolerant and how I was the one in the wrong.
I don't understand that- I feel like I was lied to. I'm okay with her making her own life decisions. If she wants to keep it and use it, that's on her. But why am I the one in the wrong because I didn't want something that I wasn't aware she had before getting into the relationship? Can someone please just explain to me why this is okay?

Another question:
Maybe it's just me being narrow minded and I might be wrong in these thoughts- but I don't have the inherent capability to understand this:
The want to be seen as female/male without having or having the desire to have what matches.
I haven't met many other trans people, but I know that I have always felt like what I have is just wrong, and I've never really felt comfortable using it- I was under the impression that all trans people were that way.
Apparently I'm wrong in that thought? Like do you not have to have the desire to change that aspect to be considered trans?
Or was she just pretending to be a she so they could just say they managed to "do a lesbian." I know that seems to be a common desire among some males out there- that they get some kind of bragging rights out of doing that kind of thing.
I mean if that IS a valid trans definition, okay, that's fine, I can accept that. I just don't understand it and need someone to explain to me how one can identify as female while being okay with what they were born with and wanting to use it that way.

Like I said- I'm not trying to be insensitive or anything, I just don't get it.

[dusty97]

Why do you think I asked someone to explain it to me? I'm aware I don't understand a lot of things I need to. You're not helping by simply confirming what I already know.

[Barb99]

Transgender is a large umbrella. It includes both the binary and non-binary.
There are many MTF's out there that can not afford or have simply chosen not to have surgery.

This is strictly my personal opinion but I think she should have told you long before you reached the bedroom, that way you could make an informed decision about continuing to develop the relationship.

I am post op MTF and will not divulge that before a first date, but as soon as we start talking about a 2nd date I tell them I'm trans.

If you are not comfortable being with someone with male parts that is your preference. I don't think it makes you insensitive.

[IdontEven]

I've heard of other MTF's who wanted to retain use of their nature-given parts. You just have differing views with one another; sorry it didn't work out.

Hopefully you can both be mature enough to walk away from this having learned something, and without hurt feelings.

Or not, both ways are valid experiences! 

[Devlyn]

^^^^^ Yup.

Penis user here. I wouldn't end up in the sack with anyone who didn't know it, though. She used poor judgement in my opinion. If the relationship isn't for you, just move on.  Neither she nor anyone here owes any explanation for their gender status.

Hugs, Devlyn

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[KathyLauren]

I was under the impression that all trans people were that way.

There is a huge variety among trans people.  Any description that includes the phrase "all trans people" is likely wrong.

Having said that, she should have told you the situation before you got to the bedroom.  And she should have accepted your "no" when you said it.

[VeronicaLynn]

I've run across quite a few FTM's and cis-gender lesbians on online dating sites that are just fine with having sex with a pre-op and/or non-op MTF.

I guess it depends how much one is attracted to vaginas and how much one is turned off by penises.

Some people take a harder stance on this than is necessary, saying genitals shouldn't matter. If it is a turn off, or a vagina is what turns you on, it's understandable that this girl isn't the best match for you.

[FTMDiaries]

Hi, and welcome! You do have some learning to do, young Padawan - and I'm happy to offer some explanations. Pull up a chair, grab your favourite beverage & make yourself comfy.

The bottom line is: both of you made a simple error here: you should've had a conversation about sex long before you wound up going to her room. You both made wrong assumptions about each other, so you both wound up getting hurt. Let that be a lesson for next time.

I'd been going out with this girl for a few dates and the inevitable eventually happened- we ended up together in her room.
so there we were, and I find out that she hadn't gone fully through transition yet/ hadn't decided what she was going to do with that aspect of her body, and was intending to still use it for it's intended purpose.

I presume you were completely open with her about being FtM and pre-op yourself? Did you explain your genitals to her in advance to give her the opportunity to back out if she's not into The V? That's the time at which you should've had this conversation, so you could check that you're both OK with each other's plumbing. How would you have felt if she'd freaked out when you took your clothes off? Wouldn't you feel hurt too? I know I would!

You don't have to disclose your status - nobody does - but I'm sure you'd agree that it's generally a good idea to be open about your status before choosing to get intimate with a new partner. I know I always do. That way, everyone knows what they're getting into long before any clothes come off, so everyone can make informed decisions before things go too far.

You say you found out 'she hadn't gone fully through transition yet': this suggests you were aware that she's trans before you wound up going to her room. So... if you're not into The D but are aware that there's a possibility that your partner might have one, you also have a responsibility to ask whether she has one before things go too far. And certainly before any clothes were removed. Sex is the mutual responsibility of all parties, including you. And if she's considering having sex with someone, of course it's possible that she may want to use her private parts.

I'm pre-op FTM and not into the male anatomy in a sexual partner- I'm into the female type, all around. 

You're not wrong in deciding not to sleep with her because you aren't interested in her private parts. We all have our tastes, and that's fine. But next time, please make this clear to your partner before you get to this stage.

"Look I really don't think I want this."
"But I thought you liked me?"
"I do like you, but THAT's just not what I want."
"It's okay, just try it."
"No, thanks, I don't want it." *getting dressed now* "I think we need to talk about this."
"What is there to talk about? You either want me or you don't."
"Okay, then I don't."
She's getting a little put-out now. "Could you at least tell me why then?"
"Because you have a d***. I'm not into that."

This is an unfortunate conversation; both of you made errors here.

She proceeds to get upset with me and the fact that I didn't want that, since I had liked her before I knew. She feels like it shouldn't make a difference what "parts" she has down there. She proceeds the next day to send me a nasty message about being tolerant and how I was the one in the wrong.

To a certain extent, I don't blame her. She's hurt, and that's why she sent you a nasty message. She gets enough of this 'I don't want you any more; I'm not into The D' nonsense from cis people and she probably hoped you'd be more understanding, since you're trans yourself. If you'd both discussed your privates earlier, you could've worded it more diplomatically & avoided the upset that occurred due to the heat of the moment. Chalk it up to experience, and maybe next time you'll be better informed about trans people's bodies and you might have a better outcome.

I don't understand that- I feel like I was lied to. I'm okay with her making her own life decisions. If she wants to keep it and use it, that's on her. But why am I the one in the wrong because I didn't want something that I wasn't aware she had before getting into the relationship? Can someone please just explain to me why this is okay?

You're not wrong in not wanting it, but if you have very specific tastes in women - tastes that apparently exclude pre-op trans women - then you're responsible for making sure in advance that the women you want to be with have the specific parts you need. It's not her responsibility to provide the parts you require. She's just going through life, minding her own business, being herself.

We get enough of this 'lying' nonsense from cis people; please don't bring it here. You may not be wrong for not wanting her specific private parts, but you are very wrong for suggesting she's lying to you. Did you know that most trans people never have bottom surgery? We're not lying about who we are. We are fully-fledged human beings; we're not defined by one or two body parts.

The want to be seen as female/male without having or having the desire to have what matches.

She may or may not be able to have bottom surgery. She might have medical reasons for avoiding it. She may be unable to afford it. She might have a family that has threatened to disown her (or worse!) if she goes through with it. She might simply not have major bottom dysphoria: not all trans people are uncomfortable with our genitals. Either way, it's nobody's business - including yours - what she does with her body.

I haven't met many other trans people,

That might be part of the problem. Perhaps you'd benefit from joining a local trans group, or socialising with other people from whichever GIC you're attending (or considering attending). Or just hang around here and get to know us!

but I know that I have always felt like what I have is just wrong, and I've never really felt comfortable using it- I was under the impression that all trans people were that way. Apparently I'm wrong in that thought? Like do you not have to have the desire to change that aspect to be considered trans?

You're not wrong. You're just you, and your experiences are 100% valid. But so are hers. Just because you have major bottom dysphoria, that doesn't mean that everyone else does. We're not all uncomfortable with our private parts; I had a much greater problem with social dysphoria and top dysphoria. That's 100% valid too. I enjoy using my man cave and I intend to keep it even after having bottom surgery. Being trans is not all about the genitals!

Or was she just pretending to be a she so they could just say they managed to "do a lesbian."

I don't even know where to start here, and I'm trying to be generous in my interpretation.

Seriously, if a cisgender, heterosexual guy wanted to be with a lesbian, do you honestly think he'd go through all the trouble of cross-dressing & taking hormones to do that? Seriously. If she knows that you identify as FtM, why would she think being with you would have anything to do with lesbians? I'd be hugely dismayed if any trans person would be transphobic enough to even think of a trans guy as being 'really a lesbian'... especially as most of us never were lesbians!

I know that seems to be a common desire among some males out there- that they get some kind of bragging rights out of doing that kind of thing.

Er, no. That's not a common desire at all. I think you misunderstand what's going on here.

Most straight guys would never go anywhere near a lesbian. Many like lesbian porn, because they like seeing women in sexual situations, so 2 women is 2x as hot for them so they love it for that. They like to imagine things like threesomes with themselves and two (willing) women, but in reality most lesbians would not be willing to participate in that. If anything, straight guys might brag about the threesome aspect of it, but when have you ever heard of any guy bragging about sleeping with lesbians?

I mean if that IS a valid trans definition, okay, that's fine, I can accept that. I just don't understand it and need someone to explain to me how one can identify as female while being okay with what they were born with and wanting to use it that way.

Yes, it IS an entirely valid trans definition, so please do accept it. Because she's entitled to identify any way she likes, and it's her body to do with as she pleases. She doesn't have to feel the same way you do... and you don't have to feel the same way she does.

Like I said- I'm not trying to be insensitive or anything, I just don't get it.

Well, then - stick around here and speak to more trans people. You'll find we're a great bunch with a wide variety of experiences. You'll learn a lot that'll help you through your transition, and life in general.

[Tessa James]

Thank you dear Diary writer,

I appreciate your comprehensive, thoughtful and clear responses to the situation Dusty's queries evoke.  FWIW i agree with every statement you made.

Gential dysphoria, the desires and ability to have bottom surgery and when to tell as a date are common subjects of concern here.  I hope Dusty sticks around.

[SailorMars1994]

As I said before my other post went away. Dusty has a lot to learn and Diaries is teaching!!

[cornbread]

I also want to thank you, Diaries. And thank you Dusty for asking your questions. I don't experience bottom dysphoria myself and I sometimes fear that will make people think I'm not really trans. Believe me, if I was okay with living as a woman just because I'm okay with having female parts then I wouldn't be on this site!

[cheryl reeves]

Dusty you are insensitive. Do you have a penis or still a vagina? Sounds like you still have your female parts for penises turn you off. What did you expect dating a mtf that she was now with a  vagina? I'm a mtf and live as a male for the most part and married to a cis woman who knows my female side and how no matter which way I dress  still like to use my penis even though there  are times I wished was fully female with a vagina. I've lived in both worlds too long to change.

[JoanneB]

I can't see how you were being "insensitive" by not wanting to have sex with someone or something that totally turns you off. But I am old romantic from the pre-hookup generation that still thinks sex is something special. I also have a wife which no way no how I can call "insensitive" because she doesn't want to have sex with a husband with tits nicer then hers, or doesn't want to use a strap-on on me, or to quote her "rubber just isn't the same as the real thing, I like what men have". A husband who is more physically a woman now is not what she wants or signed on for. Not exactly what I wanted or signed up for either, but what I needed to do.

As for the rest of your post, FTMdiaries said it best

[Chris8080]

Wow what a post Diaries, thank you for taking so much time and effort to detail it so clearly.

I think Dusty and his date were both in the wrong. Maybe just me but I found it incomprehensible that two trans people that each knew the other was trans had "a few dates" and this wasn't discussed by either one of you before getting to the bedroom? Really?

[SailorMars1994]

Young and silly on both their parts. I will trhough my two cents in. Dusty you are NOT wrong for not wanting to have intercourse with a penis. That is your prefernce to not have to go through with something you do not want. And it is kind of bad for her to try and shame you for that part alone. However, the way you handled it was rude. As a poster has said you two are both trans and assuming you indeed had more then one date this kind of conversation should have rised. The thing that ticked me off was you omission of the females gender idenity. You seem to be poorly educated on the subject which to this extent is unusual for a transitioner himself. No man would ever chose hormones or a social transtion just to have lesbian sex. That is incredibly rude to even suggest. Remember trans it a spectrum, not everyone fits into a neat little box.

[Edina]

People are complicated, relationships are messy.

Dusty97, I don't think you were wrong at all. Every relationship moves at its own pace, and it's not always easy to control the order in which things happen. It's easy for someone to say "you should have talked about it before hand", but I don't think that is always possible or practical. The start of a relationship is primarily focused on learning about each other, and doing so a pace that is comfortable for both of you. I don't think it is reasonable to expect another person to understand all the variations of personalities covered by the word "transgender". Everyone takes their own journey and it's certain that some will be further along their path of understanding than others.

What should be expected of a reasonable person is kindness, understanding or at least a willingness to try to understand. From the description in your post, this is what you gave, but was not given back to you.

When it comes down to it, no means and no. You should never have to justify why you don't want to be sexual with someone. Not everyone handles rejection well, clearly this person did not.

[dusty97]

Couple of things:

First off, I'd like to thank FTMDiaries particularly, but also everyone else for explaining- that actually does clear up a lot of things.

Second, yes, I'm relatively new to the community and coming from a very small town in Texas, so I haven't been exposed to much at all. Hence, why I don't really know what I'm talking about most of the time and what lead me here when I had questions about what it all meant. There's a lot I don't know and have never had the opportunity to know- as it wasn't seen as 'valid' in my childhood- growing up Mormon, and every time I mentioned that I "Didn't want to be a girl" the response was either being ignored or seen as sarcasm. By the time I was 14 I tried to force myself to just accept those views. And then life outside the home happened and suddenly I was free to actually, truly contemplate and consider those parts of me that had always disagreed. To be frank, I'm still coming to terms with it and there's alot I don't even know about myself anymore.

Third, no, we hadn't had the MTF conversation about her- I didn't know. She wasn't on hormones or anything, I don't think, at least. I don't really know. She didn't deem it important I guess- in the whole "why should it matter" mindset. But I had mentioned it to her that I was pre-op FTM, and she didn't have much to say about it, other than the obligatory "well that's interesting, when/how did you know?" and that. I think she assumed I had figured it out or something because I had felt comfortable telling her when most of the people at work and at home didn't know. Hence why I felt lied to- I was caught unawares of the situation. Probably should have mentioned that, in retrospect.
But in the army I guess that's why we say "You know what assuming does? It makes an a** out of you and me." (get it, U and ME in assUME...)
Anyway...

I really hope I didn't offend anyone that read this, I seriously just had no clue what was going on.

[Chris8080]

Didn't offend me, was somewhat surprised but offended . . . Nope.

I can relate to small Texas town being I'm in tiny town Arkansas. Was suggested to me in another thread when I was having trouble finding a sport bra that would fit me to go to the store and ask to be properly fitted.  There is little doubt such a request by me in this town would make the front page of the local paper. Knowledge of TG has improved greatly in recent years by many but that certainly does not apply to everyone everywhere. It's been my experience through life (I'm 68) that people that have never been exposed to anyone TG have zero comprehension and even less tolerance.

Without re-reading the entire thread, I don't remember your saying, but if you haven't spoken with a qualified counselor that you do so. Even that is far easier than it ever used to be. There are none around me and I have a 7 hour round trip drive to see both her, the MD and next the Urologist. The help those professionals have given me I would walk there if I had to. Please consider this.

[Sno]

Hey Dusty,

welcome to Susan's, you'll find out alot here, and hopefully your many questions will be answered - small towns are just hard work, that's pretty much a universal truth.

What I love about your post is its innocence, so no offence here.

Rowan