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Tuberous Breast Growth??

Started by AlyssaJ, April 23, 2017, 09:28:00 PM

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AlyssaJ

I should probably just stop reading the HRT forum for a while, hearing all these success stories about seeing breast growth or having sore nipples after two weeks, major changes in skin, etc. just makes me so impatient to start seeing changes.  After three weeks I have noticed very little, in fact as I've mentioned in other threads, I've actually seen some a-typical responses.

So I'm really hoping that this is because I was started on low dose. I know we're not allowed to discuss actual doses so I'll try to get as close to the line as I can without crossing.  My spiro dose seems to be a fairly common starting dose from what I've been able to find on ->-bleeped-<- and other doctor's websites.  However, everytime I've seen my same dose of oral Estradiol mentioned, people have responded with surprise that it was so low.  I have been trying transbuccal administration to try and maximize pre-digestive absorption.  My doctor had instructed 30 minutes sublingually but the pill rarely lasts more than 10 which is why I switched.

Anyway, my point in posting all this is that my doctor told me she was going to start me low and progressively ramp it up.  Her reasoning was that starting Estradiol at too high a dose too quickly can cause tuberous breast growth. She said that her approach more closely mimics a teenage girl's puberty and should be more successful in the long run.  I'm just curious if anyone else received similar information and went through a similar approach.  Did the initial effects seem to take longer?  Again most of this just stems from the typical trans impatience with HRT but hearing others that have gone down a similar road might help me calm myself a bit :)
"I want to put myself out there, I want to make connections, I want to learn and if someone can get something out of my experience, I'm OK with that, too." - Laura Jane Grace

What's it like to transition at mid-life?  http://transitionat40.com/



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staciM

The Dr. I'm with also deals with many (many) other trans girls and always starts "low" and ramps up progressively.  He didn't mention anything about why other than him being careful about side-effects and keeping an eye on blood levels.  Even though I'm ultimately interested in maximum feminization I would rather be somewhat slow and safe...IMO, this isn't something to be super aggressive with. 
- Staci -
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Sluggy

I'm a bit worried now.
I see someone under informed consent, and I was started at what seems to be a very mid-range to average dose of Estradiol, and a low average dose of Spiro.

Does anyone have any experience or insight they can share?
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Chris8080

My doctor also started me on low dose and said that on my next visit she would most likely increase the dosage. I didn't question her about this but rather just took her advice, after all she is the one that went to school to study this stuff not me. I plan to ask questions about it at my next visit because it seems kind of backwards to me but what do I know. The reason it seems backwards is because my next scheduled visit is one week after my initial visit with the Urologist and should be within just a few weeks of my orchi. Seems to me (again what do I know) that low dose while fighting testosterone and then a higher dose when there is no "T" is odd.

Alyssa, I wouldn't worry about seeing little effect in a mere three weeks on low dosage. Several years ago I was on a high dosage of both estrogen and progesterone for six months, during that time nipple sensation started in a month or so. Very little breast growth for the first few months and really just got going towards the end of the six months. Then the sky fell and no more HRT for 27 more years.

I fully completely understand your impatience, I thought I had learned some patience in my old age but with my orchi FINALLY within sight I find myself pacing the floor and counting down days. Patience right out the window, the way I feel now I may need a straight jacket and rubber room by then. Waiting it seems is one of the toughest parts of all this.
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warlockmaker

HRT is not a science yet, its more alchemy, and Drs vary in their dosage. I would use one that has handled TGs for 10 years or more. They have a track record of what dosage and its effect works the best with practical experience. I started at a full blown dosage. The reasoning is that the body will simply eliminate the excess thru urine.
When we first start our journey the perception and moral values all dramatically change in wonderment. As we evolve further it all becomes normal again but the journey has changed us forever.

SRS January 21st,  2558 (Buddhist calander), 2015
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AlyssaJ

Thanks for the replies.  I know I just need to be patient, like I said it's just hard to do some times when I see all these ladies talking about noticing signs of breast growth within a few weeks and I feel like my changes are going the wrong direction (well except the unexpected weight loss, that's been nice).  Anyway a couple thoughts from your responses:

The potential health complications is a really good point that I need to focus on Stacy.  It's hard to remember that this is a course of treatment that can have fatal results.  Perhaps that's why she starts on low dose and maybe the tuberous breast comment was more just a way to get me to follow her instructions.  With so many TS people self-dosing outside doctor's instructions, I'm sure that's a problem she's encountered before.

To that end, Warlockmaker I agree with your preference for an experienced physician.  In this case, the OB/GYN that is overseeing my HRT has a strong background dealing with TG persons. She actually came recommended by my therapist who has referred numerous TGs to her because of her background.  I'm not sure if it's 10 years worth, she is still fairly young, but after researching her experience and philosophies, I'm confident in her knowledge.

It's not that I'm questioning her judgement per se, I know I can trust my doctor.  But the impatience and (well let's call it what it is) jealousy of others' speedy results gets my mind working out every possible worst case scenario. Like so many of us, I want to fast track my transition but I need to learn to just sit back and enjoy the ride I think.  Easier to do though when I can find others who've been in similar circumstances.
"I want to put myself out there, I want to make connections, I want to learn and if someone can get something out of my experience, I'm OK with that, too." - Laura Jane Grace

What's it like to transition at mid-life?  http://transitionat40.com/



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Chris8080

Jealousy? Not me, nope more like green with envy when I see the results some have achieved.
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KayXo

Quote from: AlyssaJ on April 24, 2017, 07:41:41 AMThe potential health complications is a really good point that I need to focus on Stacy.  It's hard to remember that this is a course of treatment that can have fatal results.  Perhaps that's why she starts on low dose and maybe the tuberous breast comment was more just a way to get me to follow her instructions.  With so many TS people self-dosing outside doctor's instructions, I'm sure that's a problem she's encountered before. To that end, Warlockmaker I agree with your preference for an experienced physician.  In this case, the OB/GYN that is overseeing my HRT has a strong background dealing with TG persons. She actually came recommended by my therapist who has referred numerous TGs to her because of her background.  I'm not sure if it's 10 years worth, she is still fairly young, but after researching her experience and philosophies, I'm confident in her knowledge.

Risks with bio-identical estradiol are fairly low, even when taken orally and this is because estradiol is quickly metabolized in the body and doesn't have the impact other non bio-identical estrogens have on blood pressure and clot formation. If any doctor feels estrogen poses serious health risks, then they are probably confusing bio-identical estradiol with other forms and this is not a good sign. The doctor should be aware of the differences. I am on HRT since 2004 and have taken low and high doses of bio-identical estradiol without any complications, always under the supervision of one or several doctors. Women produce estradiol, sometimes in quite high levels, especially during pregnancy. Remember that. If we take the same form their and our bodies produce naturally and especially if it's delivered directly into the blood like it is in ciswomen, then our risks are significantly reduced and we are the same as ciswomen who have a lower risk of cardiovascular disease than men, by the way, up until the time they STOP producing estradiol in significant quantities.

I think you mean to say tubular breast growth, where the breast shape is conical and studies have indicated that this can happen in the absence of progesterone where progesterone helps round out the breasts. In the first few years, when girls only produce estradiol, this is what happens too. Later, the increase in progesterone during menstrual cycles (i.e. menarche) helps finalize breast growth and shape. Some women also find that time helps make breasts look rounder and less conical. Not sure what she based herself on to make that assertion (starting low to avoid tubular growth), if it is evidence-based or not but you can always ask her. I think it's important for us to be involved in our treatments and ask as many questions as we can, learn and research about the subject matter. The more we know, the better. Doctors didn't learn about transgender treatment at school and most have little knowledge of this specialized subject. They become experts in the area by getting hands on experience, reading the research (old and new) in ciswomen, men and transwomen and essentially through trial and error. A doctor that just follows recommendations, without showing much interest in the subject matter and who prescribes the same thing to everyone, is in my opinion, not learning much. In this case, 10 yrs or 20 yrs of experience with TS women doesn't mean a whole lot. Someone who is open-minded, interested in this matter, motivated to help us reach our goals while keeping us healthy, is up to date in terms of research articles and who is flexible is a good doctor.

QuoteI need to learn to just sit back and enjoy the ride I think.

Patience is indeed key. Things can take time but if after 2-3 months, you see absolutely no change, then you can go see your doctor and discuss about a possible change/adjustment in your hormones. Best of luck. :)
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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AlyssaJ

Quote from: KayXo on April 24, 2017, 08:03:43 AM
If any doctor feels estrogen poses serious health risks, then they are probably confusing bio-identical estradiol with other forms and this is not a good sign. The doctor should be aware of the differences.

Just to be clear, my comment about the potential fatal effects of HRT was not and should not be attributed to my doctor.  That was my own statement based on the worst case scenario of complications associated with Estradiol.  For me, I'm a very healthy weight (around 20 BMI, 15% body fat), physically active and my lipids are all in good shape.  So my risk of blood clots is on the low end of the scale anyway.  Just mentioned it because that risk is always out there.

Quote from: KayXo on April 24, 2017, 08:03:43 AM
I think you mean to say tubular breast growth

I believe the two terms are synonymous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberous_breasts


Quote from: KayXo on April 24, 2017, 08:03:43 AM
A doctor that just follows recommendations, without showing much interest in the subject matter and who prescribes the same thing to everyone, is in my opinion, not learning much. In this case, 10 yrs or 20 yrs of experience with TS women doesn't mean a whole lot. Someone who is open-minded, interested in this matter, motivated to help us reach our goals while keeping us healthy, is up to date in terms of research articles and who is flexible is a good doctor.

Agreed, and when I mentioned researching my doctor's experience and philosophies that is what I was talking about. Treating TG people isn't just something she does, its something she's specializes in and her profile discusses her work in TG studies and participation in TG Groups as well.
 
Quote from: KayXo on April 24, 2017, 08:03:43 AM
Patience is indeed key. Things can take time but if after 2-3 months, you see absolutely no change, then you can go see your doctor and discuss about a possible change/adjustment in your hormones. Best of luck. :)

Yep, that's exactly the timeframe the literature she provided me says as well.  It details each of the potential effects and for most of them it states that changes usually begin in 2-3 months.  So like I said, I think I just need to stop reading the stories on this HRT forum for now :)
"I want to put myself out there, I want to make connections, I want to learn and if someone can get something out of my experience, I'm OK with that, too." - Laura Jane Grace

What's it like to transition at mid-life?  http://transitionat40.com/



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KayXo

Quote from: AlyssaJ on April 24, 2017, 08:27:00 AM
Just to be clear, my comment about the potential fatal effects of HRT was not and should not be attributed to my doctor.  That was my own statement based on the worst case scenario of complications associated with Estradiol.  For me, I'm a very healthy weight (around 20 BMI, 15% body fat), physically active and my lipids are all in good shape.  So my risk of blood clots is on the low end of the scale anyway.  Just mentioned it because that risk is always out there.

A study in men with prostate cancer, aged 49-91 yrs old, who were given a high dose of estradiol through patches (E levels at around 400-500 pg/ml), found that estradiol actually REDUCED the risk of clots. I am on injections, with very high levels of estradiol, between 1,000 and 4,000 pg/ml. My cholesterol is high but so is my HDL so the ratio is excellent. I am around 25-27 BMI, just started to become more physically active. Clotting factors were measured on several occasions and remain NORMAL. I'm about the same age as you.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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KayXo

To follow-up on the above, a study found that transdermal patches (higher dose than in post-menopausal women) administered to transsexual women, some of whom were predisposed to clotting due to genetic abnormalities, did not result in any complications.

The risks of DVT and pulmonary embolism during pregnancy, when levels of estradiol can go as high as 75,000 pg/ml, are 0.1% and 0.01%, respectively.   
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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