Susan's Place Logo

News:

According to Google Analytics 25,259,719 users made visits accounting for 140,758,117 Pageviews since December 2006

Main Menu

Does estrogen make your mind more girly?

Started by Miyuki, May 06, 2014, 11:08:04 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

alex82

Quote from: Laurie on May 07, 2017, 06:59:01 PM
If you like reading studies. this blog has compiles a long list of studies (with links) on the brain and hormonal effect on it in transgender people.

http://aebrain.blogspot.com/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html

  Laurie

I have never yet read any respected peer reviewed literature that suggests 'girly brain' results in being unable to focus on basic conversational and social skills, or has an inherent link with any particular part of the colour spectrum.

Nor does it bestow an enhanced enjoyment of bridal magazines, or a fundamental desire to eat cheap chocolate in front of Pretty Woman for the 72nd time you've seen it. Not if those things aren't already part of what appeals to your personality for a whole host of reasons.
  •  

alex82

Quote from: Laurie on May 07, 2017, 07:30:58 PM
Fine Alex,

  I thought you might be interested in the information provided by the link. Obviously I was mistaken.
I'll delete the link.

My apologies.
  Laurie

You're not mistaken. I opened the link. Some fascinating reading, but nothing that can be deduced from the brief synopses provided to those without the passwords to access the full studies.

Some of them do not back up what is being said in this thread, and is not actually particularly helpful to trans people - more than a few conclude that far from being a binary locked in a binary, there is something uniquely displaced in the brains of self reported trans subjects compared to the control groups.

I said what I said, and I stand by it. Gender stereotypes are ridiculous and they are damaging. They don't just smother trans children, they smother everyone. They take no account of the huge numbers (between a quarter and a third I've read) of people of either sex who do not conform to gender stereotypical roles, and yet are neither transsexual or homosexual.

These are stereotypes that have cost everyone and the world we live in A LOT of potential.
  •  

roseyfox

*gglz* This chat getting super passive agressive lets chill people. <3 love and hugs - Rosa
I rather not
  •  

alex82

Quote from: roseyfox on May 07, 2017, 07:46:54 PM
*gglz* This chat getting super passive agressive lets chill people. <3 love and hugs - Rosa

Sure, good call.

But really? "Girly brain makes me a bit dumb and I can't stop eating chocolate and I haven't been able to listen to anyone finishing a sentence or a story because I'm a slave to my hormones and I have a ponytail to play with, and I can't park my car because lingerie is so pretty and OMG that man who just walked across my rear view mirror smells like sex even though he's probably an ->-bleeped-<- because men usually are." Really? Come on.

These stereotypes have damaged millions if not billions of people in multiple societies and continue to do so. Using out of context studies on whether marmosets with vaginas have a slightly marked preference for looking at the genital area of dolls or playing with toy cars, dropped in by social scientists of unknown success looking for a conclusion to their hypothesis, is doing nobody any favours, trans or cis, male or female.
  •  

Daniellekai

Quote from: alex82 on May 07, 2017, 08:02:38 PM
Sure, good call.

But really? "Girly brain makes me a bit dumb and I can't stop eating chocolate and I haven't been able to listen to anyone finishing a sentence or a story because I'm a slave to my hormones and I have a ponytail to play with, and I can't park my car because lingerie is so pretty and OMG that man who just walked across my rear view mirror smells like sex even though he's probably an ->-bleeped-<- because men usually are." Really? Come on.

These stereotypes have damaged millions if not billions of people in multiple societies and continue to do so. Using out of context studies on whether marmosets with vaginas have a slightly marked preference for looking at the genital area of dolls or playing with toy cars, dropped in by social scientists of unknown success looking for a conclusion to their hypothesis, is doing nobody any favours, trans or cis, male or female.

Those types of posts were from a few years ago, granted I don't think the stereotypes have changed THAT much, but I do note a distinct change in how often the girl = ditzy argument is mentioned in 2017, that's clearly some sexist bull, but still it doesn't mean there's no difference in how men vs women think, or that it isn't tied to hormonal balance... You also can't just discount their experience as patently false, it may be that they have trouble focusing on estrogen, but I suspect that's more on how their particular brain interacts with it than any general effect, and I believe a general fogginess is a side effect of certain anti-androgens that nowadays are avoided for that reason among others.  (in reference, I know some potential causes of ADD may be treated with estrogen! I can't find any scientific paper or evidence other than at least one endocrinologist (not mine, though I haven't asked either) mentioning that their patients have seen improvement of their symptoms (IE: focus better) on HRT)

As I said though, I don't think these stereotypes have persisted among trans people in 2017, other than men smelling nicer, I've seen that mentioned a number of times, and basically made note of it as a possible real effect of MTF HRT.  They aren't saying that their sexual preference has changed because of it though, on the contrary I've seen the caveat that they still like women and would never consider bedding a male because of other reasons, that is... Just because men smell differently now doesn't mean that they want to bed them, or that it makes them view them as sexier, it's just different. I've not seen FTMs noting the inverse (women smelling better/different), but that may be because I've also seen it said that the sense of smell improves for MTFs, it may degrade slightly for FTMs. (A quick google around would seem to indicate that they tend to go the other way if they experience any change at all, if they liked women before T, they find they start to like men more after T, I did find a few mentioning that they "stayed straight" in their transition (went from liking men to liking women), but they seem to be fewer in number)
So it seems that's probably just down to sense of smell getting better for MTFs, smelling what they couldn't before.

What I mean about "acute girl brain" is more about subconscious tells, like my motions, posture, and the like. I've noted at a couple support meetings MTFs sort of moving their feet while legs crossed like women do, compound that with having mentioned it to my cisgender (ex)girlfriend, and she said she was never aware she was doing it, and I don't do that currently (even when sitting in feminine posture purposely), it may very well be something caused by how the sex hormones interact in the brain, it affects almost the entire body, I can't imagine there are no changes to thought process (conscious and otherwise).

That said, I'm still very skeptical of any sudden changes in interests, it seems more likely that they're now just more free to pursue interests they like better rather than the hormones having changed what they like (that's too big of a change, I think it would be far more subtle). I don't particularly like shopping now, but that's only because I can't shop in the right part of the store yet I think. That isn't a "female activity" either, plenty of men enjoy shopping, buy nice clothes, etc. A not unlikable interest will always lose out to your favorites, but if your favorites are behind a stereotype gender wall you might not partake, and instead do the thing that is not unlikable (like how some trans folk do hunting and fishing before transition, and after they start transitioning they note that while they don't like them any less, they partake far less often, a case of "better things to do")


  •  

Dee Marshall

I did notice some fuzziness early on. I suspect that we, and the teenagers the trope is based upon, are just having a bit of trouble adjusting to the higher levels of estrogen and it sorts out soon enough. Not to mention minor functional differences. I've seen the same thing happen to trans men. As to interests, I know that I shied away from feminine things as if they were a cliff when I was in denial. Male versions of things like clothes and shoes held no interest. They still don't.
April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!
  •  

Charlie Nicki

Quote from: Debussy on May 07, 2014, 01:36:03 AM
I almost threw up and passed out last time I had my blood taken for lab work...

Other than that, I feel driven way more by emotion than logic, am quick to get sassy with people, and assume everything my partner says is somehow asserting that I'm fat. I don't know if that's more girly, but I definitely feel like I have chronic PMS.

Also, I hated chocolate before. Now I $#%ing love it, and crave it whenever I start crying (which is all the time nowadays- no wonder I'm getting fat).

Girl I'm here at the office trying not to burst out laughing, this sounds so cute and hilarious and definitely so girly.
Latina :) I speak Spanish, English and a bit of Portuguese.
  •  

RobynD

Stereotypes totally frustrate me as well. Although, being able to express oneself using facets of what have been stereotypes is certainly valid and understandable. Many people waited a very long time to be able to express their authentic gender, so gosh if you want to girlie up, mentally, socially etc, go for it. I just cringe when some of these things are often unintentionally reinforcing sexism. So i hope they don't do that.

Having said that my brain changed. I am easier going and have less anxiety about life's setbacks. Men do smell better to me and what was a pansexual attraction to men has shifted down the spectrum to where my primary focus romantically (fantasy and interest) are guys. So i am not sure that i buy the argument that sexual preference cannot be hormonally affected.

I've seen a lot of changes. Are they "girly"? That is open to interpretation.


  •  

IdontEven

Quote from: alex82 on May 07, 2017, 08:02:38 PM
Sure, good call.

But really? "Girly brain makes me a bit dumb and I can't stop eating chocolate and I haven't been able to listen to anyone finishing a sentence or a story because I'm a slave to my hormones and I have a ponytail to play with, and I can't park my car because lingerie is so pretty and OMG that man who just walked across my rear view mirror smells like sex even though he's probably an ->-bleeped-<- because men usually are." Really? Come on.

These stereotypes have damaged millions if not billions of people in multiple societies and continue to do so. Using out of context studies on whether marmosets with vaginas have a slightly marked preference for looking at the genital area of dolls or playing with toy cars, dropped in by social scientists of unknown success looking for a conclusion to their hypothesis, is doing nobody any favours, trans or cis, male or female.

Sheesh. I'm sorry if some people's experience upsets you, or if you think that experience is damaging to feminism, but is the vitriol really necessary?
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
  •  

Tori

Yes. Yes estrogen does make your thought process more girly.

Just not in any way I would have expected before transition.

It is very hard to explain to someone who has not experienced it, but combined with the dropping of T, it is a new mind altering hormone effecting how you process certain inputs.

Hormones are weird, man.


  •  

rmaddy

Medically speaking, if you notice any changes in your thinking before at least several months on HRT, you are either jonesing on your decision to take them or experiencing placebo effect.  There is no chance whatsoever that hormonally induced brain remodeling accounts noticeable differences in thought or emotional content in the first few months.  If you feel great one month in I am very happy for you.  So did I.  It feels good to be doing something that you believe to be in your best interests long term.  Beyond that, your brain is going to have to marinate for quite a while in its new sauce before it takes on any significant amount of flavor.
  •  

RobynD

I probably did not see significant mental changes other than loss of depression and anxiety until about a year, but those were of course very big deals and that stuff happened pretty quick.

I think we often speak of the placebo effect as though it were inferior and not "real", but it is very real. Anything that can get your brain to start producing the right chemicals in the right levels, is very much a successful medical intervention.


  •  

alex82

Quote from: IdontEven on May 08, 2017, 08:26:17 PM
Sheesh. I'm sorry if some people's experience upsets you, or if you think that experience is damaging to feminism, but is the vitriol really necessary?

Nothing I said was vitriolic. I was fair and inclusive to everyone of any type while remaining impartial. I also expressed interest in and engaged with the link provided. Intellectual disagreement is not vitriol.

I went out of of my way to explain that hackneyed and damaging stereotypes are helpful to nobody no matter their circumstances.

Upsets me? Not really. Upsets the world and the potential within it - undoubtedly. If you are going to use some academic studies, then expect to be able to discuss them on their academic merit, instead of deleting them in a huff because they are questioned in part and as a wider backdrop, rather than profusely accepted without rigour or even the relevant passwords to access them all fully.
  •  

IdontEven

Let's be clear, here. I posted no studies, nor did I delete any. I only posted my experience, which you mocked, along with everyone else who experienced similar things.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
  •  

Tori

Let's not assume we know what either party feels. It tends to escalate minor quibbles quickly when we do.

Text is imperfect for conveying tone.

So many arguments stem from mistakenly reading a different tone into a post than intended.

In the grand scheme we are all just talking shop here. We aren't particularly well  equipped to rule who is right or wrong. Especially when they speak from their own perspective and experience.


  •