NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS:

[Rachael]

im not trying to offend you alice, but womens room = for women, if you arnt one, its sortof a case of find somewhere neutral... if your medically female, either TS, or natal, etc. then womens room, aslong as you id female too
male? mens room, if you id male of course, some neutral restrooms should be available for TV, CD, and other gender groups, heck, anyone who wants to use it, to make life easier.
R

[Shana A]

A transvestite or a cross-dresser is not a woman by definition, a transsexual woman (pre, post or non-op) is by definition and diagnosis.  I think people need to be educated about these differences because they are significant in implementing laws/policies such as these.

tink

The lines between these categories aren't always clearly drawn. I was diagnosed TS, however someone else might see "man in a dress" in the womens room. I cannot control or change their perception, it is their right to see me however they will, even if that is at odds with my identity. I'm very sensitive to issues of safety, both that of other women, and my own as well, and have no desire to create discomfort.

In a hypothetical situation when a perceived crossdresser/transvestite is out "en femme" where can s/he safely go to the restroom? If she can't by law use the womens' room, then she must use the mens'... how can we guarantee her safety? I don't wish to see my sisters be hate crime statistics.

y2g

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 07:53:51 PM

I feel left out not really itendifing as TS at the moment - I am getting closer though.

Alice

Alice, I don't care how you identify, you need to be able to safely use a rest room.

y2gen

[tinkerbell]

A transvestite or a cross-dresser is not a woman by definition, a transsexual woman (pre, post or non-op) is by definition and diagnosis.  I think people need to be educated about these differences because they are significant in implementing laws/policies such as these.

tink

The lines between these categories aren't always clearly drawn. I was diagnosed TS, however someone else might see "man in a dress" in the womens room. I cannot control or change their perception, it is their right to see me however they will, even if that is at odds with my identity. I'm very sensitive to issues of safety, both that of other women, and my own as well, and have no desire to create discomfort.

In a hypothetical situation when a perceived crossdresser/transvestite is out "en femme" where can s/he safely go to the restroom? If she can't by law use the womens' room, then she must use the mens'... how can we guarantee her safety? I don't wish to see my sisters be hate crime statistics.

Zythyra, I think it would depend on how I identify myself as.  Am I TS, in other words, am I woman with the wrong anatomy?  If my answer is "yes", I would use the ladie's lounge regardless of my physical appearance.  Most of us are lucky to pass as women and do not face the bigotry of some people who don't have any idea of what being transsexual is (or the steps we must take to transition); however, there was a time when we were not so passable either, especially during the first months of HRT/RLT.  Did that fact prevent me from using the ladie's lounge?  Absolutely not!  once I went full-time, I started using it and I didn't care about what people thought.  Now, I am aware that everyone is different, but my point is:  if you are TS, you have every right to use the ladie's room.

Now on a personal note, I think that some of us are just too hard on ourselves.  I remember a picture you had on your avatar a while ago.  If that picture was you, I can't conceive how anyone in their right mind could confuse you for a "man in a dress".

tink

[melissa90299]

Gender variant people should just use the restroom they are most comfortable in. Period. I know of post-ops who, for the life of me, I can't see as anything but men. Yet, I would never deny them their use of the ladies room. When we start trying to judge everyone and deny them basic rights, we just become bigots.

[Shana A]

Now on a personal note, I think that some of us are just too hard on ourselves.  I remember a picture you had on your avatar a while ago.  If that picture was you, I can't conceive how anyone in their right mind could confuse you for a "man in a dress".

tink

Thanks for the comment Tink. Yes, the avatar picture that I previously used is me, or at least was how I looked few years ago... it isn't quite so easy to pass now as it was when I had more hair. 

zythyra

[katia]

men belong in the men's room and women in the lady's room.  no buts. no nothing.  be real people.  i dont want to share my space with a man.  if you wanna call it bigotry, then ok, i'm a bigot but i dont want men in the women's room.  period.

[melissa90299]

men belong in the men's room and women in the lady's room.  no buts. no nothing.  be real people.  i dont want to share my space with a man.  if you wanna call it bigotry, then ok, i'm a bigot but i dont want men in the women's room.  period.

Except that a large number of people believe that you are a man. Who are you to judge who is a man or who is a woman? Do You want the same judgments made about yourself?

[katia]

i dont give a damn what people believe.  if you are a diagnosed ts, then you are a woman; otherwise you are a man.  it is not rocket science ya know?

[melissa90299]

i dont give a damn what people believe.  if you are a diagnosed ts, then you are a woman; otherwise you are a man.  it is not rocket science ya know?

Oh so you have to be diagnosed first? No, it is not rocket science, it is not science at all, it  is a basic human right to let people pee in the space that fits their gender ID based on their own criteria.

[katia]

hey you can do whatever you please.  just dont suggest i've got to do the same please. call me a bigot or anything you want. i am a bigot, write that down and memorize it for future reference.  i dont want MEN in my space and i will report them if i see them trolling my space.  be sure of that. 

[Keira]

Melissa,
You keep saying "grow up",
but taking other people's opinion
in consideration is part of "growing up",
not feeling our point of view is universal and unchallenged.

Its a fact that many GG's will feel uncomfortable if an
obvious man, whatever their own self-diagnosis.
If the person's borderline, most women won't fret unless the
person's action are seen as treatening.

Denying reality and calling people bigots, when people are in their rights, won't solve anything.

In 10-15 years, maybe GG's will not feel uncomfortable because
of an education effort and surveillance cameras everywhere insuring
security even in the darkest recesses. But, for now, their fears have
nothing to do with bigotry and the current laws are on their side.

[Emmalene]

hey you can do whatever you please.  just dont suggest i've got to do the same please. call me a bigot or anything you want. i am a bigot, write that down and memorize it for future reference.  i dont want MEN in my space and i will report them if i see them trolling my space.  be sure of that. 

I don't want anybody in "my space" that I don't want there either but public restrooms or restrooms in restaurants are not your space. All public restrooms should be unisex, especially considering the possibility that there are more than two genders (as I believe there is). Some doctors even think there are over 400 genders. Just because self identified bigots use the restroom to just hang out in there and talk without "men" being around doesn't mean that that is what a restroom SHOULD be used for.

[katia]

hey you can do whatever you please.  just dont suggest i've got to do the same please. call me a bigot or anything you want. i am a bigot, write that down and memorize it for future reference.  i dont want MEN in my space and i will report them if i see them trolling my space.  be sure of that. 

I don't want anybody in "my space" that I don't want there either but public restrooms or restrooms in restaurants are not your space. All public restrooms should be unisex, especially considering the possibility that there are more than two genders (as I believe there is). Some doctors even think there are over 400 genders. Just because self identified bigots use the restroom to just hang out in there and talk without "men" being around doesn't mean that that is what a restroom SHOULD be used for.

any space labeled 'for women only' is my space because i'm a woman.  400 genders?  ha ha ha ha ha that's a matter of opinion....try to tell that to society and see what you get.  i only believe in two genders, male and female and so do all members of society except those who think that there are "400 genders".

Posted on: November 24, 2007, 01:55:10 AM

Some doctors even think there are over 400 genders.

i want proof.  you said there are doctors that think there are over "400 genders" i wanna know who those doctors are; i wanna read their studies; i wanna speculate on their findings....

[Enigma]

any space labeled 'for women only' is my space because i'm a woman.  400 genders?  ha ha ha ha ha that's a matter of opinion....try to tell that to society and see what you get.  i only believe in two genders, male and female and so do all members of society except those who think that there are "400 genders

Be careful making such broad statements as "i only believe in two genders, male and female and so do all members of society".  Its easy enough to disprove, all you have to do is find one person that doesn't fit that statement to prove it false.

Enough philosophy though, clearly there is a great deal of anger among the forum members over this issue.  I think its already been said, repeatedly, but it bears repeating.  While we're busy drawing lines in the sand over who's allowed in and who's not, remember that to most of society our pass in to the woman only space is bought and paid for, not earned nor granted like some birthright.

Again its the dichotomy of passing vs.  not passing, which is really just a variation of "I'm more TS then you".  If we really want to get carried away, why not have to submit DNA proof to gain admission to any restroom?

[Keira]

This thing is getting very heated,

The 400 gender thing is pulled straight out of thin air Enigma,
if gender is a continuum, they'd be an infinity anyway, so
the 400 is pointless and for now unproveable for sure.

I'd like people to look at the definition of bigot because
its getting a real workout here.... Not everybody's who's
not espousing your universal worldview is a bigot.

So, if the US embraces androgyne's one day regardless
if its a proveably biological issue, and the rest of the
world still goes by a binary gender construct, everyone
else would be a bigot in this case!!!

As for unisex restroom, its a good thing if it is an adjunct to the current restroom situation. A Mall, could have the normal restrooms and then individual stalls with corridor access for parents with children, the gender variants, handicaped or anybody who wants to have more space and privacy.

[Enigma]

As for unisex restroom, its a good thing if it is an adjunct to the current restroom situation. A Mall, could have the normal restrooms and then individual stalls with corridor access for parents with children, the gender variants, handicaped or anybody who wants to have more space and privacy.

I suggested this yesterday... 

Simple solution, identify some facilities as gender neutral (or at least trans friendly), cisgendered women that don't mind sharing a bathroom with non-cisgendered women can choose accordingly as can cisgendered women that are uncomfortable with it.

All the rest of this bickering is actually rather pointless...

[Rachael]

 Melissa, it would be helpful if you could accept an opinion occasionally without growling honey.

Katia: totally.  Men dont belong in women only spaces, and women dont belong in women only spaces, if i must carry a shrinks letter, or some medical form to prove in the rare occasion someone might say something, which i might add, hasnt happened yet. then its fine with me. If it got to a stage of self diagnosis for use, and presentation didnt matter.... all sorts of predators could pretend to 'identify' as female and get into the ladies room and lockerroom... all hell can break loose from too much trying to please every side... or in this case, the side that winges loud enough...
R

[Shana A]

Many TS people are extremely poor and can't afford to see a therapist for their diagnosis. They need a place to pee. I don't know about the 400 genders, but I know for sure based on who I am that there's more than two. And we all need a place to pee.

y2g

[Rachael]

im a student, with no parental backing, i cant afford to eat properly, yet i got my gp to write me a letter saying i was undertaking gender reasignment... free. and fine. the uni gave me a female id card with that...
R

[melissa90299]

All I ask is that we give the same tolerance to others that we ask toward oursleves. It is the height of hypocrisy to insist that only "diagnosed transsexual" be allowed in the ladies room. (in the case of "MtFs")

Gender variant people should be allowed to use the space that conforms to their self-identified gender or, in the case of androgynes, the space in which they are most comfortable. It is not up for me to judge what traits constitute a man and what traits constitute a woman. Banning people based on our own prejudices is wrong. How would the pre-ops like it if they were banned from the ladies room because they have a penis?

Tolerance.


Posted on: November 24, 2007, 09:33:51 AMThose preaching intolerance are the ones who are failing to understand "other people's opinions." They are claiming and presuming "cissexual privilege." It is the same privilege that whites had in the American South to use the "white-only" bathroom. Instead of promoting Civil Rights, they would be telling us just wait 15 or 20 years for attitudes to change. When we preach intolerance we line up on the side of the bigots. Pure and simple.