Achwrt of the world according to the countries most accepting of trans people

[Dee Marshall]

A survey of 23 countries by Ipsos for BuzzFeed has found that the UK scores highly in terms of agreement with transgender rights.

https://indy100.com/article/a-chart-of-the-world-according-to-the-countries-most-accepting-of-trans-people-7511081

Posted 6 days ago by Louis Doré in news

I have to admit, most of the top five aren't surprising. Spain being the most accepting is a surprise.

   

[ForLexGal]

ohh okay. i see

[warlockmaker]

Missed the most accepting country Thailand where everyone knows or has a tg friend.

[Raell]

Yeah..here I don't even bother to figure out who's "male" or "female."
Many/most Thai people are androgynous and bisexual in varying degrees, and express gender identity as they please.

[Kylo]

UK probably scores highly because here we have a tendency to mind our own business, even if we disapprove of something. The same could be said for attitudes in Japan. But also, it's for Buzzfeed. I think if you did a proper poll offline you'd get somewhat different results, think of the sort of demographic who would hear about/participate in a poll for Buzzfeed in the first place.

[ForLexGal]

  I see.

[arice]

UK probably scores highly because here we have a tendency to mind our own business, even if we disapprove of something. The same could be said for attitudes in Japan. But also, it's for Buzzfeed. I think if you did a proper poll offline you'd get somewhat different results, think of the sort of demographic who would hear about/participate in a poll for Buzzfeed in the first place.

The same is largely true in Canada. Even socially conservative Canadians tend towards a live and let live attitude.

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[Debbie]

Missed the most accepting country Thailand where everyone knows or has a tg friend.

You are absolutely correct with regard to everyone having a transgender friend in Thailand, but with respect, and as someone who has lived in Thailand for over a decade, I disagree that Thailand is the most accepting country. Thailand is very accepting of transgender people to a certain degree, but in general they face a great deal of discrimination both legally and in terms of employment. Firstly, transgender people may not change their gender on passports and may not marry as a woman. Even a country as apparently transphobic as Russia is ahead of Thailand in this matter. Transgender women in Russia can change their gender on their passport and are recognized legally as their chosen gender. Secondly, transgender people are absolutely barred from most types of professions in Thailand. They cannot be teachers or university lecturers, and they may not work in the civil service. At best, they can work in supermarkets, salons, and (maybe) as air hostesses. The only other options are to appear as clown-like figures in dreadful Thai soap operas or to work as prostitutes. Again, even Russia is ahead of Thailand with regard to legal protection, though bizarrely Russia has banned transgender people from driving cars!

I am British, and consider Britain to be more accepting of transgender women than Thailand in terms of legal protection and employment. Maybe, at a societal level, Thais are more tolerant in that they are very unlikely to abuse or harass a transgender person. This is more likely in the UK, but at least transgender people have legal protection, unlike in Thailand. I can't see this changing any time soon.

[AnonyMs]

Does anyone know why Thailand has such a difference between government and social acceptance of transgender people?

I'd imagine if the Thai government allowed people to changed their gender markers there would be a significant acceleration in acceptance of trans people into Thai society as more of them entered professions that have been difficult to get into.

What would it take to get the law changed there, and who could do it?

[warlockmaker]

Anony, I suprised you made such a posting. You are behaving like a typical Western culture person, believing that you need to impose western values in judging culture. The Thais really dont care about gender issues, its part of being a bhuddist and part the very important family unit, respect for their elders and love for their king.The thai language also shows little gender issues, in adressing people there is NO gender they are all referred as Khun. There is a gender use for "I" and amongst males is Pom but many use the female "I"which is Chan.

The bhuddist religion is a live and let live as long as you dont harm anyone. There is no discrimination and the government accepts the 3 gender. Americans and other western countries have tried to stir up the ID issue. At present because there is NO discrimination and you keep your birth ID.

I am a bhuddist, I was born in Asia, I now live in Thailand which has in the past been my second home for 48 years. I write, read and speakThai. I am accepted in the highest social circles. Anony you may only know the middle class thais, but the job opportunity is the same for all genders. Maybe because you only see TGs in your network in menial jobs, please dont make broad assumptions. Tgs in Thailand work in all levels ...offices, movie stars, military, you just dont get to know them in your network circle. Suporn's clinic is abut to Pattaya whuch has a seedy reputation for cis females and Tgs.

Please, stop imposing your values on a culture, country and people that are not following western values.  The Western culture of hate and prejudices. Dont bring these values here to Thailand. Come here and accept the values and culture of a country that has never been occupied by a foreign country and whose culture has continued for centuries.

[Raell]

I didn't realize how oppressive American Christian culture is toward transgender and gay people until I moved to Thailand in 2010.
I noticed it by its absence.

Sometimes Thai kids tease transgender playmates, but mostly it's just taken for granted.
In school, students typically sit with boys on one side and girls on the other, but when I have boy/girl contests I take it for granted that a student sitting on the "wrong" side and answering questions with opposite gender classmates are transgender, so count their points for that team.
If I forget, the other students matter-of factly remind me.
I also like the Thai gender neutral nicknames.

I don't have to figure out who is what gender because people gender themselves as they speak. Sometimes they will change their reflexive gender pronoun during the day, although boys often use the female pronoun for themselves when talking to a girlfriend or sister.

Most Thai use a male pronoun when referring to me, although in many places "kow" is often used for both girls and boys. At first I thought it was because of this ambiguity, but noticed that when even they spoke in English, they still used male pronouns when talking to me.

I never correct them, and it makes me feel pleased.

At work I dress femme androgynous, but many Thai teachers are the same as I am..wearing slacks and ambiguous clothes, sometimes remarking to me that they would never wear a skirt, and I then agree with them.

[AnonyMs]

Anony, I suprised you made such a posting. You are behaving like a typical Western culture person, believing that you need to impose western values in judging culture. The Thais really dont care about gender issues, its part of being a bhuddist and part the very important family unit, respect for their elders and love for their king.The thai language also shows little gender issues, in adressing people there is NO gender they are all referred as Khun. There is a gender use for "I" and amongst males is Pom but many use the female "I"which is Chan.

The bhuddist religion is a live and let live as long as you dont harm anyone. There is no discrimination and the government accepts the 3 gender. Americans and other western countries have tried to stir up the ID issue. At present because there is NO discrimination and you keep your birth ID.

I am a bhuddist, I was born in Asia, I now live in Thailand which has in the past been my second home for 48 years. I write, read and speakThai. I am accepted in the highest social circles. Anony you may only know the middle class thais, but the job opportunity is the same for all genders. Maybe because you only see TGs in your network in menial jobs, please dont make broad assumptions. Tgs in Thailand work in all levels ...offices, movie stars, military, you just dont get to know them in your network circle. Suporn's clinic is abut to Pattaya whuch has a seedy reputation for cis females and Tgs.

Please, stop imposing your values on a culture, country and people that are not following western values.  The Western culture of hate and prejudices. Dont bring these values here to Thailand. Come here and accept the values and culture of a country that has never been occupied by a foreign country and whose culture has continued for centuries.

Hi Warlockmaker, I think you misjudge me. I can't go into a full discussion on my thoughts here for various reasons and I don't want to get into an argument with you either. Let me instead quote a paper from 2014, of which Dr Preecha is one of the authors.

The Development of Sex Reassignment Surgery in Thailand: A Social Perspective
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3977439/

As far as the government of Thailand is concerned, male-to-female transsexuals are legally men. Transsexuals cannot legally change their gender on their ID cards, leading to problems with potential employers. Many employers do not want possible complications involved with hiring a transsexual if an equally qualified "normal" person can be hired. Because of this, the vast majority is relegated to occupations traditionally held by women, that is, waitresses, hairdressers, makeup artists, and vendors, even if they are university graduates. Transsexuals' birth gender must remain the same on their passports as well; a fact that can lead to confusion and unwanted scrutiny at border crossings and immigration checkpoints. Thailand also prohibits same sex marriage, meaning that when the partner of a transsexual dies, the deceased's family receives any or all assets.

I found the entire paper fascinating and reread it every so often.

The above is what I was referring to when I said this.

Does anyone know why Thailand has such a difference between government and social acceptance of transgender people?

I asked because I don't actually understand it. I'd assume the legal system reflects Thai society, and the Dr Preecha's paper even says it does. I have this impression of Thailand being socially accepting, and yet I can't reconcile it with that paper or some of the other things I've learned.

I'd be interested in discussing your views on this paper.

[Alanna1990]

Now the big question is how can I move to one of those places, where I live there's religious marches against LGBT rights almost each month, nobody wants to give us a job,  and you just have to listen to them for a minute to know they don't want us a mile near them.

[warlockmaker]

Change must come from the heart. Legistation does little good if only politically correct persons keep the hate inside. Changes, like attitudes to people who are just different, takes time, but I have faith that the next generation will be more understanding. This does not help this generation in many places.

I am a mixed race person. I grew up under british colonism where chinese and mixed bloods were regarded no better than dogs. Today, we are common and even envied.

Its difficult to move to Thailand without a skillset for a work permit,  unless you have money for a privilage visa paying usd 45,000. Or you are over 50 for a retirement visa. Its may be difficult for some westerners to adapt to a very different culture.

[Debbie]

Anony, I suprised you made such a posting. You are behaving like a typical Western culture person, believing that you need to impose western values in judging culture. The Thais really dont care about gender issues, its part of being a bhuddist and part the very important family unit, respect for their elders and love for their king.The thai language also shows little gender issues, in adressing people there is NO gender they are all referred as Khun. There is a gender use for "I" and amongst males is Pom but many use the female "I"which is Chan.

The bhuddist religion is a live and let live as long as you dont harm anyone. There is no discrimination and the government accepts the 3 gender. Americans and other western countries have tried to stir up the ID issue. At present because there is NO discrimination and you keep your birth ID.

I am a bhuddist, I was born in Asia, I now live in Thailand which has in the past been my second home for 48 years. I write, read and speakThai. I am accepted in the highest social circles. Anony you may only know the middle class thais, but the job opportunity is the same for all genders. Maybe because you only see TGs in your network in menial jobs, please dont make broad assumptions. Tgs in Thailand work in all levels ...offices, movie stars, military, you just dont get to know them in your network circle. Suporn's clinic is abut to Pattaya whuch has a seedy reputation for cis females and Tgs.

Please, stop imposing your values on a culture, country and people that are not following western values.  The Western culture of hate and prejudices. Dont bring these values here to Thailand. Come here and accept the values and culture of a country that has never been occupied by a foreign country and whose culture has continued for centuries.

I read your post with interest, and agree with many things you say. But I also strongly disagree with some of them. Like yourself, I also live in Thailand, and can speak and read Thai (to a moderate level), but I think you have a rather overly sanguine view of the rights of transgenders in Thailand. Firstly, the Thai government does not recognize three genders, and transgender women (particularly) are not accepted at at all at all levels of society. There are no transgender civil servants or politicians. There are no trans women working as teachers or university lecturers. I'm also at a loss as to how you can make the claim that transgender women are even accepted in the military because they are manifestly not. In fact, they are specifically barred from the military, and are excused from national service because their medical report classifies them as mentally ill, or something along those lines.

Your views on Buddhism are fine. I agree with you that it engenders (no pun intended) a certain amount of tolerance. But your description of western culture as being one of "hate and prejudices" is crass and simplistic. There are plenty of positives in western culture, and all cultures have their "hates and prejudices", including Thai culture.

Incidentally, Thailand has been occupied by a foreign country: it was occupied by Japan during World War Two. What I think you meant was that Thailand has never been colonized by a foreign power.

I live in Thailand, like Thai people and their culture, but to portray Thai culture as absolutely perfect and Western culture as imperfect and bad is not realistic at all.

Having said all of this, I strongly agree with your implied sentiments about the openness of ordinary Thais, in general, to transgendered people.

[warlockmaker]

Interesting reply. First of all I belong to the very highest society tier in Thailand and you are wrong, many TGs from high class families run business, are doctors and professors. Its who you know and associate with and unless you have access to this group you would not  know.

Exclusion in military service is not automatic but needs to be raised when called to duty. Most tgs use this as a loophole. Most thais would prefer not to serve. Just like men in USA looking for any way out, and mental is a great loophole.

Thailand has never been occupied , they co operated with the Japanese. This has been academically debated with different viewpoints. I am Asian mentally, my first language is Cantonese. I know what its like to be occupied by a foreign power. I am 69 years old, and yes thats me in the pic taken 2 weeks ago. I speak fluent Thai.

As I said, dont impose your western values of ID and marriage laws in a country where 50pct of the cis marrages are not registered. They could not care less but some agree with westerners to be polite and some here have been influenced by the west and may now feel this way.

I do feel that liberal democracy is a complete failure. Just look at the hate it has caused in the USA. Europe. Thank the thai military goverment that prevented a thai civil war caused by towing the mandate of Western liberal democracy. Today is a partial democracy with peace and prosperity. Bangkok is the most visited city in the world, used to follow Paris and London which are now unsafe due to terrorism. Are there failings in Thailand, yes but not to the extent of the western liberal democracy. I would never want to live in the west.

Apart from these points I see your viewpoint. And agree to disagree.

[rose]

Very interesting


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