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Learning to live a non-passing life.

Started by Angieisalone, June 19, 2017, 04:59:52 PM

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Julia1996

Quote from: JulieOnHerWay on August 04, 2017, 12:30:56 AM
I agree.  Sad, so sad but true.  Angie is on the brink of living her true self and denies herself that opportunity.  After so many posts she still does not let even one word into her created reality.  It is obviously not a different opinion or honest opinion she seeks.  She seeks confirmation of her opinions and we waste our time telling her otherwise.  And it is all her fear of what others MIGHT THINK.  Sad, so sad.
You can lead a horse to water but can't make her drink.

I agree. I've read her posts and I looked at her pictures. She's very passable and her body looks feminine. But if she refuses to believe that no one can help her. Since this is causing her so much anguish she may want to just detransition and be done with all the stress it's causing her.
Julia
Julia


Born 1998
Started hrt 2015
SRS done 5/21/2018
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Devlyn

Correct me if im wrong, but the O/P asked for tips on living a non-passing life. She's gotten scarce few because most of you just want to argue about whether she passes or not....without seeing her in person. I took her word for it and offered the best advice I could.

Hugs, Devlyn
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Michelle_P

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 04, 2017, 03:27:23 PM
Correct me if im wrong, but the O/P asked for tips on living a non-passing life. She's gotten scarce few because most of you just want to argue about whether she passes or not....without seeing her in person. I took her word for it and offered the best advice I could.

Hugs, Devlyn

I've been pointing out that I'm in the same body shape as angieisalone, and I get clocked often enough to know I don't pass beyond casual 'passing on the street', and fail at close inspection there.  Heck, I was full time after a whopping 4 months of HRT and no surgeries, yet I am living my authentic life, socializing as a woman, out in public for hours every day.

What I am seeing is a lack of self-acceptance, and confidence that even without passing, she can live as herself.  Passing under all conditions is not necessary to being your authentic self.  Most folks just don't look at others that closely unless something invites their attention.  Oddly, a lack of self-confidence, a presence that shouts "I don't belong here!" Is one of those things that attracts attention.

I think that angieisalone needs to get past her need to pass 100%, and get to the point where she can accept herself, and just live as her authentic self.  That brings self-acceptance, self-confidence, and oddly enough, will improve her passing.

I know many ciswomen who "don't pass" according to the criteria I see bantered about here, yet they are not hiding in male drab or refusing to socialize.  They don't seem to know that they don't pass, and just go about living their lives as their authentic selves.  I'm pretty sure if someone misgendered them or called them out as trans, they would laugh in their faces (or in one case, drop them with a roundhouse, but Mary is a bit special that way).

It is quite possible to love an authentic life without meeting arbitrary 'passing' criteria. 
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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Devlyn

Maybe I misread her post, but she gave me the impression that not passing was dangerous where she is. She has been asserting all along that she doesn't pass. I don't consider cajoling her into trying to be the best idea under the circumstances.

Hugs, Devlyn
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Michelle_P

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 04, 2017, 06:13:55 PM
Maybe I misread her post, but she gave me the impression that not passing was dangerous where she is. She has been asserting all along that she doesn't pass. I don't consider cajoling her into trying to be the best idea under the circumstances.

Hugs, Devlyn

I don't see that in any of the first few pages of the thread.  Just workplace stuff where someone who very likely knows she transitioned is misgendering with dumb questions, and similar nonsense.  Stuff I get every day and either blow off or lecture them on.

On safety, I've been assaulted, and posted on that in this thread. (I had worse growing up.)  I refuse to let some creep or crazy dictate how I will live my life.  Oh, I do carry defensive weapons, and am a very good marksman if it comes to that.  At 5'8" 136 lbs, I ain't gonna engage in hand-to-hand on the street,  just evade/defend/evade.

Now excuse me, this non-passing transgender person has to go out and meet some folks for coffee and discuss another speaking engagement.  I'm walking there.  In public.  On the street where I was last attacked. So Not Hiding!
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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Devlyn

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 20, 2017, 10:42:57 AM
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 20, 2017, 06:48:32 AM
Honey, I'm neither male nor female. Living in the middle ain't the end of the world. I just own it, and guess what? People treat me fine. People hold doors for me. Life is a mirror, put a sour face forward and you'll get sour faces back. Smile, and the world smiles with you. Best wishes.

Hugs, Devlyn

Not where I live. Where I live gender presentation must be on point because if it isn't, you're dicked.
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HoneyStrums

"Learning to live a non-passing life."

I've never relay focused on passing, Its not been that important to me, don't get me wrong, It is still important, in so much as it hurts when I'm sir'd.

I relay wish I could help you. But I cant. where I live in the UK, I have things easy, I haven't had much agro. I do get sir'd and I'm sure that one shop keeper does it on purpose. Considering they don't sir the sir in from of me.

Needless to say, I've had people approach me, under the assumption, I'm a man wearing girls clothes to pick up guys, sighs. And I constantly get invited to pride.

Im pressured to enter the womans toilet, even the i literally dont want to. Pre op that's a no no for me. I dont want a pee pee, in me pee space, I aint taking one into someone ellses.

Children ask me, if im a girl or a boy, and some have called me, vicky with the big dicky. And people ask me, if my boobs are real, if i have had the operation yet, and twice now people have pulled my hair believing it to be a wig.

I dont care to pass, susans stopped any attemp of me trying before I even made a single post. Ive seen the trauma Woman cause themself trying to pass. Its not a good place to be mentaly, And i was clear I wasnt going their.

How do I COPE?

The other day, were I work, we have just started a womans bike riding club, fear of rejection prevented me from even thinking about going on it. But two people came up to me, people that know Im trans, and what that means. They came up and asked, "Are you comming" I said isnt it a womans things, and they said "you a woman arn't you?" My internal reaction, "oh yeah thats right"

Im so focussed on being myself, gender gets the back seat.

Moments like this, are what make all the aforementioned negatives worth while.

I hope you can find a balance like this in a none passing life aswell
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Michelle_P

If the OP actually lives in a place where being non-passing is a constant and immediate danger, then learning to lead a non-passing life starts with learning where they can relocate to for their own safety. We have had a few members from places like the UAE and Dubai in that situation.

Much of the United States is safer, particularly urban areas, often with LGBTQ districts, like the Twin Cities and San Francisco.

Some self-defense preparedness, such as a defense class for women over a couple weekends can be wise as well as a confidence builder.

Learning to live a non-passing life requires some internal changes in self-acceptance and self-confidence, as well as the wisdom to place oneself in a safer environment.

Putting ones energy into finding ways to deny oneself is unlikely to make these internal or external changes, and suggests that the first step is to determine why one focuses on seeking failure rather than success. This is where working with someone else who can be a dispassionate sounding board and can ask clarifying questions can help.

That's why I have been seeing, and continue to see a therapist. I am brutally honest with her and myself, and we have spent over a year digging away all the debris that bound me to seeking failure, and clarified my thinking about what I need to do.

I find that I can harness and redirect the enormous energies I once focused on hiding myself and trying to deny my existence. Now these energies are powerful tools I can harness to push back and alter the world around me.

Look at Devlyn and ButterflyVickster, at Lisa, and many others here. They have learned or are in the process of learning this at some level, and are moving forward into the world.

We have the strength to come out. We have the intelligence to seek assistance.  We have the tools we need to go forth and live our authentic lives. You need to rediscover yours.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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Angieisalone

Quote from: Dena on August 03, 2017, 08:56:02 PM
Envy. I wear a size 16 or XL top and my bottom is about 12 or 14 restricted by the waist size. No rear and moderate hips. I have a BMI of about 21 which means everything is in tall sizes and non tall sizes leave a bare midriff. No buying something off the rack as I need a tall shop or mail order. To not plan my clothing purchases a couple of weeks in advance and not be limited by the limited selection of tall sizes.

On the plus side, nobody ever comments that I am an Amazon, possibly because of my size.

You must very tall because those sizes with that bmi doesn't add up unless you're very tall and thin.
I'm shorter than you in smaller sizes and yet have a bigger bmi.

Quote from: Dani2118 on August 03, 2017, 10:32:40 PM
Angie darling, it seems to me that in your mind somewhere you don't want to pass. No matter what anybody says, you shut them down, they are wrong. I've read this whole thread and don't need to see pictures to realize that in your mind you don't pass and never will. No matter what. Until you dig deep into your own head and find, and deal with the reason you don't want to pass, you will never be able to. Ladies, correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I'm reading. There's been some fantastic advise in this thread. It's kept me from the pit of 'I'm hopeless" tonight. Angie accepts none of it, so???

Not the case. I have evidence that proves why I don't pass.

Quote from: Stone Magnum on August 03, 2017, 11:54:44 PM
.... Yep. Looks like a girl to me. A cisgender girl, no less. What am I being warned about?
I hate to break this to you, but you have tiny little shoulders. If you were a male, you'd face endless criticism.

Are you scared of your femininity, perhaps?
I know it can be difficult to truly see the new image in the mirror but you seem to be struggling a good deal.

You clearly didn't read the article I post a few posts. Ack. The average female has 14" shoulders while male is 15". I'm 17", which is far from average.

Quote from: Julia1996 on August 04, 2017, 03:17:18 PM
I agree. I've read her posts and I looked at her pictures. She's very passable and her body looks feminine. But if she refuses to believe that no one can help her. Since this is causing her so much anguish she may want to just detransition and be done with all the stress it's causing her.
Julia

Feminine bodies are meant to be curvy. Not columns/inverted triangles. Now you can say that women also have those body types but society and biology refers to them as masculine.
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HoneyStrums

"Feminine bodies are meant to be curvy. Not columns/inverted triangles. Now you can say that women also have those body types but society and biology refers to them as masculine."

So if your a woman and somebody says, look what manly shoulders you have, you take that as not passing?
So that's the same as saying a cis woman with manly shoulders isn't a woman?

And with pregnancy, does not being able to conceive, stop a woman being a woman?
Does, playing football to a woman, stop them being a woman?

What if you don't like pink? That feminine, does it stop you being a woman if you like blue?

Im asking these questions, because you mentioned masculine, in description of a woman, or be it one characteristic.
Masculine is not man, nor is feminine female. Characteristics of a woman may be masculine, but this does not stop them from being a woman.

For every characteristic, their is a number of variations equivalent to the total number of individuals that have ever lived. Your hair is your hair, it not a mans, or a womans. You have your hair, and if you are a woman, your hair is a womans not matter what it looks like.

Your shoulders may be broad, but if you are a woman, your shoulders are a womans shoulder, and for aslong as your a woman, you characteristics are the characteristics of a woman.

Masculine and feminine are stereotypes, they do not define gender.
And if you tell me your clocked I believe you. I have no reason to doubt you.
Im just trying to understand why, Your focus is on shedding masculinity, and not on expressing the individual woman that only you can be.

Passing by its definition is giving the power to determine whether or not you count as a woman into the hands of someone ells. And even if, in the instance you meet somebody that passes you, the next person might not. Because those two individuals will see two different masculine, and feminine stereotypes, when they think of man and/or woman.

Every single man on this planet will have attributes that dont conform to masculine, and this is the same for woman and femininity.

If you cut out, everything masculine about yourself, then you will be 100% feminine, this is something that nobody on this planet is or ever be. Unless they have surgeries to conform to statistics generated, But those statistics change for every single person who is ever born.

And if you do conform to femininty you will be constantly changing your face, hairstyle, how you sound, how you talk, how you walk, the lengths of your legs, your style of dress, shoes, the activities you participate in, the food you eat eat, and the portions. And this list is just the tip of the iceburg.

And on top of that you will be the only feminine that exists. Stop giving people the power to hurt you. You are a woman no matter what you look act or sound like. And if you go full guy mode, you still a woman doing what she needs to be safe. But their isn't any point in hurting yourself mentally, in trying to stay safe physically. eg, if you will end yourself in guy mode, then risking you life en fem is safer.

I say, think about yourself, what do you need? eg what can you not live without expressing. Exspress those only in the amounts you need. But please, dont try and please everybody, its impossible, and will only hurt you.
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rmaddy

Maybe you can clarify what it is that you want.  The title suggests that you are interested in learning to accept that you don't pass.  If this is the case, I'm not sure why we are discussing your measurements and shape.  Learning to live as a non-passing TG generally involves a combination of talk therapy and HRT +/- to get to a place where you can, at the very least, be at peace with your body.  We all look for validation, but the non-passing transperson seeks it primarily from within, whereas the stealth/passer looks externally.  It's up to you, really. 

Two things come out in your posts:  1)  you are grieving not being able to pass, and 2) you are not very open to positive feedback about what, for most trans women, would be an enviable body to work with.  Regarding #1--I totally feel you.  Many of us have been there, and its really a drag to be misgendered all the time.  There are things you can do, but accepting the limitations of your body is part of that.  Regarding #2--girl, you got it easy.

I'm 6'3"  (190cm).  Much of my height is in the torso, so nothing fits.  I weigh 190 lbs on a good day.  My shoulders are 22".  My feet are size 13.  My head is large for a man, with nose and ears to match.

There are plenty of people here willing and ready to talk to you about self-acceptance and letting go of the idea of passing.  We're here for you.  If, on the other hand, you want to gripe about your measurements, you might want to reconsider.
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Shellie Hart

I am not sure what exactly is going on here. Guess I am a little dumb. But if I had a face even remotely like what I see in your (OP) picture I would have no complaints about life. I already have the body in most ways, but my face is hopeless. I have made peace with it in that I live as female only at home. However, I would love to be able to just once in a while go out and be myself. Maybe once a month would be great. Just slip on my skinny jeans, a bra, tight shirt, makeup and a pair of nice heels and I am on my way. For me that would be a dream. But I can understand someone that desires full-time; maybe that is a completely different ball game. I get it. But for me, maybe in the next life...
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Kendra

RMaddy I want to thank you for an excellent post which I find so true on many levels. 

I will admit the back and forth with measurements and bone structure in this thread has caused me to question my own situation in unsettling ways.  I don't think that was the intention, but that is what happened.  RMaddy your post has given me assurances and clarity that I hope will also help others, and I hope will help Angie.
Assigned male at birth 1963.  Decided I wanted to be a girl in 1971.  Laser 2014-16, electrolysis 2015-17, HRT 7/2017, GCS 1/2018, VFS 3/2018, FFS 5/2018, Labiaplasty & BA 7/2018. 
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Dena

Quote from: Angieisalone on August 05, 2017, 08:30:32 AM
You must very tall because those sizes with that bmi doesn't add up unless you're very tall and thin.
I'm shorter than you in smaller sizes and yet have a bigger bmi.
I am 6'2" with a build like a quarter back with shoulder pads. When the shoulder pad look was it, the first thing I would do with a new blouse was to rip the shoulder pads out. The blouses would fit perfectly and looked like the pads were still in it. When I told my hair dresser this, she asked that I save my shoulder pads and give them to her.  My current weight is about 166 pounds but it tends to drift around depending on how much salt I have consumed.

There is no way I will ever fit "average female norms" so I don't worry about it. I just own it and get on with my life. When you act like you belong, nobody questions you and if they did, my response would depend on how the question was asked. If it's polite, they will get a proper answer. If it was rude, I can dish it out if I want to.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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  •  

warmbody28

I seems like everyone is getting way to technical with this stuff. If you are a model or in movies then yes all that technical measurements stuff matters but in all honesty like every day life it doesn't matter. guys don't care as much as we think about the things us ladies care about. like sometimes after I'm done at the gym and I'm leaving I get hit on by guys. Looking a hot mess and smelly and yet they still come up to me? or how a had a cold a few months ago I went to the store in my PJs to get medicine and for some stupid reason a guy told me I was cute and asked for my Instagram and Facebook... I like the rest of you use to stress about my feet and shoulders and weight (ok I still stress about my weight sometimes) but these days I don't worry anymore because I know guys don't care that much. try to enjoy your beautiful selves. I see so much opportunity in all of you :)
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warmbody28

Quote from: Dena on August 05, 2017, 12:29:11 PM
I am 6'2" with a build like a quarter back with shoulder pads. When the shoulder pad look was it, the first thing I would do with a new blouse was to rip the shoulder pads out. The blouses would fit perfectly and looked like the pads were still in it. When I told my hair dresser this, she asked that I save my shoulder pads and give them to her.  My current weight is about 166 pounds but it tends to drift around depending on how much salt I have consumed.

There is no way I will ever fit "average female norms" so I don't worry about it. I just own it and get on with my life. When you act like you belong, nobody questions you and if they did, my response would depend on how the question was asked. If it's polite, they will get a proper answer. If it was rude, I can dish it out if I want to.
that build is ok in many parts. when I went to the northeast I saw lots of ladies like that and ladies with mustaches and sideburns. Did my best not to stare, ladies come in all shapes and sizes  :)  oh and every single one of those ladies turns out are married or divorced so theirs someone out their for everyone
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Janes Groove

I agree with Devlyn Marie. And think this thread has really gone off the rails. If the OP says she doesn't pass take her at her word.

This endless -

I don't pass.
Yes you do.
No I don't.

Has become tiresome. If she doesn't think she passes, then she doesn't pass. There's nothing wrong with that! She's the one living a non-passing life.  IMO she would be better advised on how to deal with that.

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jentay1367

Quote from: Janes Groove on August 05, 2017, 01:27:28 PM
I agree with Devlyn Marie. And think this thread has really gone off the rails. If the OP says she doesn't pass take her at her word.

This endless -

I don't pass.
Yes you do.
No I don't.

Has become tiresome. If she doesn't think she passes, then she doesn't pass. There's nothing wrong with that! She's the one living a non-passing life.  IMO she would be better advised on how to deal with that.

This ^^^^^^  +1000
  •  

Angieisalone

Quote from: HoneyStrums on August 05, 2017, 09:22:49 AM
"Feminine bodies are meant to be curvy. Not columns/inverted triangles. Now you can say that women also have those body types but society and biology refers to them as masculine."

So if your a woman and somebody says, look what manly shoulders you have, you take that as not passing?
So that's the same as saying a cis woman with manly shoulders isn't a woman?

And with pregnancy, does not being able to conceive, stop a woman being a woman?
Does, playing football to a woman, stop them being a woman?

What if you don't like pink? That feminine, does it stop you being a woman if you like blue?

Im asking these questions, because you mentioned masculine, in description of a woman, or be it one characteristic.
Masculine is not man, nor is feminine female. Characteristics of a woman may be masculine, but this does not stop them from being a woman.

For every characteristic, their is a number of variations equivalent to the total number of individuals that have ever lived. Your hair is your hair, it not a mans, or a womans. You have your hair, and if you are a woman, your hair is a womans not matter what it looks like.

Your shoulders may be broad, but if you are a woman, your shoulders are a womans shoulder, and for aslong as your a woman, you characteristics are the characteristics of a woman.

Masculine and feminine are stereotypes, they do not define gender.
And if you tell me your clocked I believe you. I have no reason to doubt you.
Im just trying to understand why, Your focus is on shedding masculinity, and not on expressing the individual woman that only you can be.

Passing by its definition is giving the power to determine whether or not you count as a woman into the hands of someone ells. And even if, in the instance you meet somebody that passes you, the next person might not. Because those two individuals will see two different masculine, and feminine stereotypes, when they think of man and/or woman.

Every single man on this planet will have attributes that dont conform to masculine, and this is the same for woman and femininity.

If you cut out, everything masculine about yourself, then you will be 100% feminine, this is something that nobody on this planet is or ever be. Unless they have surgeries to conform to statistics generated, But those statistics change for every single person who is ever born.

And if you do conform to femininty you will be constantly changing your face, hairstyle, how you sound, how you talk, how you walk, the lengths of your legs, your style of dress, shoes, the activities you participate in, the food you eat eat, and the portions. And this list is just the tip of the iceburg.

And on top of that you will be the only feminine that exists. Stop giving people the power to hurt you. You are a woman no matter what you look act or sound like. And if you go full guy mode, you still a woman doing what she needs to be safe. But their isn't any point in hurting yourself mentally, in trying to stay safe physically. eg, if you will end yourself in guy mode, then risking you life en fem is safer.

I say, think about yourself, what do you need? eg what can you not live without expressing. Exspress those only in the amounts you need. But please, dont try and please everybody, its impossible, and will only hurt you.

Just because someone claims to of a gender doesn't mean they are of that gender. Being a woman is looks, body, mannerisms and language. Do you honestly think someone with a big bushy beard is a woman if they claim to be one?


Quote from: rmaddy on August 05, 2017, 10:48:24 AM
Maybe you can clarify what it is that you want.  The title suggests that you are interested in learning to accept that you don't pass.  If this is the case, I'm not sure why we are discussing your measurements and shape.  Learning to live as a non-passing TG generally involves a combination of talk therapy and HRT +/- to get to a place where you can, at the very least, be at peace with your body.  We all look for validation, but the non-passing transperson seeks it primarily from within, whereas the stealth/passer looks externally.  It's up to you, really. 

Two things come out in your posts:  1)  you are grieving not being able to pass, and 2) you are not very open to positive feedback about what, for most trans women, would be an enviable body to work with.  Regarding #1--I totally feel you.  Many of us have been there, and its really a drag to be misgendered all the time.  There are things you can do, but accepting the limitations of your body is part of that.  Regarding #2--girl, you got it easy.

I'm 6'3"  (190cm).  Much of my height is in the torso, so nothing fits.  I weigh 190 lbs on a good day.  My shoulders are 22".  My feet are size 13.  My head is large for a man, with nose and ears to match.

There are plenty of people here willing and ready to talk to you about self-acceptance and letting go of the idea of passing.  We're here for you.  If, on the other hand, you want to gripe about your measurements, you might want to reconsider.

Just to learn how to live as someone who doesn't pass and while I rarely ever get clocked doesn't mean I pass. Passing is more then just not getting clocked.


Quote from: Janes Groove on August 05, 2017, 01:27:28 PM
I agree with Devlyn Marie. And think this thread has really gone off the rails. If the OP says she doesn't pass take her at her word.

This endless -

I don't pass.
Yes you do.
No I don't.

Has become tiresome. If she doesn't think she passes, then she doesn't pass. There's nothing wrong with that! She's the one living a non-passing life.  IMO she would be better advised on how to deal with that.

People here are too sweet and often don't critique people. They think everyone here passes.




  •  

LizK

A couple of thoughts on passing

Who decides if you pass or not?

How do you know if you have passed?

Doesn't passing require Context? by that I mean. If I go about my daily business and do not detect anyone staring or making fun of me, if I am gendered correctly and my name is used. I am treated as any other woman in the place...did I just pass? 
Transition Begun 25 September 2015
HRT since 17 May 2016,
Fulltime from 8 March 2017,
GCS 4 December 2018
Voice Surgery 01 February 2019
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