Can one live as their target gender without passing?

[Steph]

Many, many people can pass as their target gender, but even so, they still may not be accepted.  For example I came out at work before I started RLT, my co-workers knew all about Steph.  When "Steph" started work about 4 weeks after coming out, even though I passed pretty good at the time, not everyone accepted me as a woman, it took time and effort and perseverance.

I prevailed.

Steph

[Wendy]

When I attended the Southern Comfort Conference in September I saw every combination possible.  I saw MTF's that were living as females and did not pass while other MTF's made me jealous.

Most of the MTF's made a great effort to look like and act like a female and I thought they were very passable.   

If a person wants to live as a female and is happy in spite of not passing then more power to that person. 

Personally females are beautiful and I think it is worth making an effort to at least try to be beautiful. 
..............................

My wife turned out to be the 1 in 20 that accepts her husband.  It has taken her a couple of months to get used to my body but she has become a very close friend again.  It also took a second conversation for my wife to understand what I told her the first time (6 months earlier).  Our arrangement is I can express myself in our bedroom but she discourages me from telling the children so that she remains the only person that knows.  She is shocked at my gestures, emotions, and massive reduction in muscle mass.  She has even given me an occasional compliment related to my female side.  However she knows it would be very difficult for me to pass even with help.

I only dress as a male when I leave the house.  Yesterday 12/4/07 I was chatting with a good neighbor friend whose son also plays on the same varsity baseball team as my son.  I got the same comment I have received from many people, "You look very good!  What have you been doing?"   

Do you think I should tell my neighbors the secret to regrow some of your hair?   

I am quite paranoid and do not relish the idea of people making fun of me behind my back.

My wife is quite funny and she told me that she has prayed to the Lord for the past few years for me to return to her.  She did not realize that her prayers would be answered in an unusual way.  I told her yes you won the "boobie" prize!

I am happy my wife stayed with me.  Nero I can not answer your question at this time.  If my wife left me I would feel less pressure to worry about passing.  Now I am worried about my wife losing all her friends because she chose to stay with me.  I think circumstances can influence the decision.

[Kate]

Now I've met so many people during my life.  Some women like Janet from work try extremely hard to fit the stereotypes of what being a woman is.  She is currently living fulltime, wearing female attire at all times, going to therapy, taking hormones and speech lessons, etc, etc. Basically she is in her real life test living and working as a woman 24/7/365, but she doesn't pass and hence she has been encountering some problems with some people there.

See, this is what I'm trying to figure out: what is it about her that gets her picked on? Is it really as simple as her not passing? Or does she look "incongruent," meaning showing up with a beard shadow, body hair... and skirt and heels? What is her "presentation" (I hate that word, but you know what I mean) like? Does it SEEM like an artificial "presentation?"

I get that we need to play within the rules and expectations of society, and can't simply demand acceptance while not making any effort to fit in. I GET that.

But I'm not entirely sure that not-passing by itself is what gets people picked on. I realize the "100% passing or it's not worth it!" people disagree, but I swear it has something to do with being TOO incongruent, too much contrast, too much stereotyped behaviour/appearance overlaying too many masculine traits.

And if it's truly possible to not pass yet STILL find acceptance to some degree, then one can still live as their target gender without passing.

~Kate~

[Nero]

Now I've met so many people during my life.  Some women like Janet from work try extremely hard to fit the stereotypes of what being a woman is.  She is currently living fulltime, wearing female attire at all times, going to therapy, taking hormones and speech lessons, etc, etc. Basically she is in her real life test living and working as a woman 24/7/365, but she doesn't pass and hence she has been encountering some problems with some people there.

See, this is what I'm trying to figure out: what is it about her that gets her picked on? Is it really as simple as her not passing? Or does she look "incongruent," meaning showing up with a beard shadow, body hair... and skirt and heels? What is her "presentation" (I hate that word, but you know what I mean) like? Does it SEEM like an artificial "presentation?"

I get that we need to play within the rules and expectations of society, and can't simply demand acceptance while not making any effort to fit in. I GET that.

But I'm not entirely sure that not-passing by itself is what gets people picked on. I realize the "100% passing or it's not worth it!" people disagree, but I swear it has something to do with being TOO incongruent, too much contrast, too much stereotyped behaviour/appearance overlaying too many masculine traits.

And if it's truly possible to not pass yet STILL find acceptance to some degree, then one can still live as their target gender without passing.

~Kate~

Hmm There may be a difference between 'not-passing-birth-sex-is-apparent' style, and 'not-passing-linebacker' style. Meaning- an overly 'manly' appearing non-passable woman may be less likely to be accepted than a woman whose male birth sex is apparent, but not overly incongruent. Just a theory.

[Keira]

For many TS, not passing is not just about their face looking male, its about having a manered extreme presentation (dress, manerism, etc) and simply not looking at ease it their own body. This happens often in the first year or two.

With time, many correct this and they end up fine, but some always seem to be caricatures!!

Dissonance is what sticks out in people's mind. Someone who doesn't create too much difference between expected presentation of a women and actual presentation (or even falls within average variations) will be cut much more slack even if someone does find out because of their facial features or body type that they were originally male.

[Nero]

For many TS, not passing is not just about their face looking male, its about having a manered extreme presentation (dress, manerism, etc) and simply not looking at ease it their own body. This happens often in the first year or two.

With time, many correct this and they end up fine, but some always seem to be caricatures!!

Dissonance is what sticks out in people's mind. Someone who doesn't create too much difference between expected presentation of a women and actual presentation (or even falls within average variations) will be cut much more slack even if someone does find out because of their facial features or body type that they were originally male.

That makes sense. There are transwomen with 'male voice range' who even on the phone are nothing but female, because they are so female, the voice doesn't matter.

[Shana A]

And if it's truly possible to not pass yet STILL find acceptance to some degree, then one can still live as their target gender without passing.

~Kate~

One should be able to live as whatever gender they choose, and be a valued person, regardless of whether or not they pass. I also think that a we shouldn't feel pressured to pass because of societal expectations. Do it because that's how you want to look. I quickly realized I wasn't a makeup and heels type person. Jeans and flannel shirts are what I'm comfy in.

y2g

[Keira]

Passing has nothing to do with heels or whatever,
I go out in T's and shorts or jeans and sandals during
the summer, not trying to impress people with femininity,
although C cup breasts are certainly making a point ;-).

Its not about meeting society's expectations.
Women have thousands of different presentation,
you can be any one of them and still be a women.

But, if your seen as male (which is more probable in gender
neutral clothes), don't expect to be treated as a women.
If your all right with that, more power to you. That may
simply mean that for you, social dysphoria is not as profound
as somatic dysphoria (body). For some people, simply having a female
body is enough, they don't change anything else and
if people are civil they may live happy lives (though not the
life of a woman).

[Rachael]

choose? hmm

Nero: i know several natal females with voices in male range, but nobody notices...

kiera: totally, if someones normal enough, nobody CARES if thier trans. they forget....
R

[Shana A]

Its not about meeting society's expectations.
Women have thousands of different presentation,
you can be any one of them and still be a women.

But, if your seen as male (which is more probable in gender
neutral clothes), don't expect to be treated as a women.
If your all right with that, more power to you. That may
simply mean that for you, social dysphoria is not as profound
as somatic dysphoria (body).

Actually, in my case, the social dysphora is much more profound than the somatic. I can live with my body (at least I think I can, it's also possible I'm in denial), however I don't like being seen/treated as male. Where it gets tricky is that I don't expect to pass as a woman w/out HRS, so I'm seen as ambiguous. I'm not necessarily all right with that all the time. 

zythyra

[Nero]

choose? hmm

Nero: i know several natal females with voices in male range, but nobody notices...

True. There's really no feature unique to transwomen. Any 'masculine' feature possible from voice to brow ridge to adam's apple - there are natal females who share it. It really just depends on one's overall look, presentation, behaviour, and 'aura' if you will.
One 'so called male feature' won't make or break you.

[Kate]

kiera: totally, if someones normal enough, nobody CARES if thier trans. they forget....

Exactly. I think people tend to laugh when someone seems fake or artificial to them. But I don't think simply being read makes someone seem fake or silly. People will laugh at an obvious male in a miniskirt for the same reasons they'd laugh at a 90-year-old GG in a miniskirt. It's not a TS intolerance thing so much, as a "who do you think you're kidding?" kinda thing. As long as someone seems real, even if that's as a real TS in the middle of transitioning, trying to honestly find her way... I don't think people will laugh. But if someone comes across as arrogantly forcing things, either in appearance or in demanding acceptance while making no effort themselves, there's going to be laughter and resentment, IMHO.

~Kate~

[Patroklos]

Well, personally, I don't pass worth a damn and I live as my target sex. Yes, I bind, wear a short hair cut and men's clothing and have generally masculine mannerisms but without HRT I will never actually pass.

However, I just act with confidence when I walk into the men's restroom and everyone just assumes that I'm supposed to be there. My personality comes off as male, as far as I know, and so people don't really question it. I tell people that I have a birth defect and am a late bloomer. Most people accept that.

So, for me, it's possible. It's a reality.

[Shana A]

True. There's really no feature unique to transwomen. Any 'masculine' feature possible from voice to brow ridge to adam's apple - there are natal females who share it. It really just depends on one's overall look, presentation, behaviour, and 'aura' if you will.
One 'so called male feature' won't make or break you.

I'm currently reading Julia Serano's book Whipping Girl, the section I'm reading now details the range of diversity within the binary genders. Some males have "female" physical characteristics and vice versa.

y2g

[Rachael]

it took this long for you to work that out? and a BOOK too?

R

[Shana A]

it took this long for you to work that out? and a BOOK too?

R

Not to worry, I figured this out a long time ago. I'm waiting for the rest of the planet to catch up and accept the diversity as natural  

y2g

[Rachael]

they do accept that diversity... just LOTS of male features, or male features and male behaviour and female dress isnt the sort of diversity they can handle.
R

[SarahFaceDoom]

I'd say there are lots of people who aren't even transgender that don't pass as their target gender very well, but they live their lives anyways.

There are also a lot of people who are "passing" but not living as their target gender.

Passing and living as your target gender don't actually have much to do with one another.

[Nero]

I'd say there are lots of people who aren't even transgender that don't pass as their target gender very well, but they live their lives anyways.

There are also a lot of people who are "passing" but not living as their target gender.

Passing and living as your target gender don't actually have much to do with one another.

Interesting. Could you elaborate on that?

[katia]

society is very fond of this saying:  "If a bird looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck."