The great gender identity question: Childhood?

[Natasha]

Please read before posting:  This thread is intended for people that are transsexual (male to female, female to male, in transition, pre or post-operative)

I was always certain I was a girl.. I think I had reached that point where transitioning seemed the more appealing option to suicide... and life in my male form and with this wretched identity seemed far worse than death.    Also the problem had never really been about clothes... dressing up as a girl while nice, didn't really solve the problem... I didn't feel like both girl and boy... I just knew I was a girl (albeit one who liked certain few "boy things" like video games... but felt like a girl that liked these things).  Yet, one thing bugs the hell out of me and I wish I could explain this (being post-operative, I should maybe forget about this but I just thought I'd bring it up).. as a child I remember a short phase where I was scared I'd turn "physically" into a girl suddenly... you'd think the idea would appeal to me... but I was also raised in a fairly gender-conformist environment... Could this have been because I was taught that "being a boy" was right?   

I know that it's way too intensely personal a matter for strangers to be able to say anything definitive, but it sounds at least plausible that my childhood fear of suddenly "turning into" a girl was a response to subconsciously registering a desire/need to be a girl and freaking out over it?  I don't know.  I'm just mincing my thoughts here.

[Ayana]

P.S.  Practically nothing is too intensely personal for me these days.

   I agree with Renate....

).. as a child I remember a short phase where I was scared I'd turn "physically" into a girl suddenly... you'd think the idea would appeal to me... but I was also raised in a fairly gender-conformist environment... Could this have been because I was taught that "being a boy" was right?   

I know that it's way too intensely personal a matter for strangers to be able to say anything definitive, but it sounds at least plausible that my childhood fear of suddenly "turning into" a girl was a response to subconsciously registering a desire/need to be a girl and freaking out over it?  I don't know.  I'm just mincing my thoughts here.

   It sounds like your explanation is certainly plausible Natasha. The only other explanation, that I can see, is a fear of the unknown, a fear of a new and different life overnight. It's one thing to think about changing over a period of time and it's quite another to change instantaneously. Maybe subconciously you realized the difficulties that are inherently involved.
   Just a thought though. 


   Ayana   

[Sheila]

I always dreamed that I would wake up being a girl. Of course it never happened. I never really socialize myself into the male bonding thing. I felt like I had cooties when I was around the guys, they would either walk off one by one or say they had someplace to go or made some excuse to leave me. As far as sports go, I was the last one picked if I had to play. They all made me feel wanted? I tried one year to play with the girls. I had fun but then they told me to leave as I was a boy and they didn't want boys around any longer. I had fun jumping rope, hop scotch and another little game forgot the name. They taught me a little game with yarn, had a lot of fun with that. When they tired of me they would go to the girls bathroom for a while. Then I would wonder off and they would come out. So, I never got the socialization of either gender.
Sheila

[KarenLyn]

I'm sure I was a tomboy. I was raised in a rural setting and the woods and creeks were my playground. I never considered my gender and even after starting school I didn't question even though I never fit with the boys. My socialization skill are lacking even now. Raised as a catholic, I believed my prayers would be heard and I'd wake one morning and find myself changed to a girl. Eventually I gave up and resigned myself to my fate and tried to learn to be a man.  I remained a loner throughout my school years. I endured the name calling, queer and ->-bleeped-<-, as I never seemed to get it right. I joined the marines, married and fathered a child. All I ever really wanted though was to grow up to be a wife and mother.
I've come a long way though I can never be a mother at least I now get to be a wife.

Karen Lyn

[IsabelleStPierre]

Greetings Everyone,

Hum...where to start?? I can remember the day my parents brought home my little sister from the hospital and it struck me that I wasn't a girl!! I mean....I felt completely cheated...disheartened...mad...and confused (sadly confusion seems to be a normal state of mind sometimes  ) To me I have never in my life felt male in anyway of the word.

I originally transitioned when I was a teenager and dressed as I felt all my teen years. Did this cause problems?? Understatement of a lifetime, but to me it was just that me. It was never about the clothes, but was rather just me expressing myself as myself.

I always dreamed that I would wake up being a girl. Of course it never happened.

When I was young we lived in Chicago and I used to think that I would turn into the person who had sat on the seat on the L before me...I used to fantasize that it was a beautiful woman...but no luck...no matter how hard I wished for it to happen in never did...with my luck it would have been the old wino anyway...

P.S.  Practically nothing is too intensely personal for me these days.

Oh goodness...what's privacy these days?? It seems that everything in my life is out there for people to see...although I tend to live my life rather publicly anyway. Since I learned that a number of the GLBT groups in the area didn't have any "T" on their boards I've been active in working with them to make sure that the "T" voice is heard on their boards. Guess I'm becoming "that transsexual activist"...oh well I knew it could happen when I started speaking up.

I guess I was lucky in that most of my life there was never a male influence on my life...just me, my mom and four sisters...hum...now I've got some questions about that..............

Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre

[cindybc]

You know the part where you say that after you put on the clothes and wondered , Ok, what now?

You may and may not get the same reaction but I do know a couple of trans girls that felt pretty lost after the surgery, asking the very same question, including myself. It's like hitting an area of empty space, like something is missing. I believe we go through a lot of changes as we progress during transition. Even our character, or conscious mind is transformed or changed. We are certainly not the same person when we reach the other end. Many of these changes are good but some are not. Maybe that is it, having to face the unknown.

Cindy     

[Sheila]

You know the part where you say that after you put on the clothes and wondered , Ok, what now?

You may and may not get the same reaction but I do know a couple of trans girls that felt pretty lost after the surgery, asking the very same question, including myself. It's like hitting an area of empty space, like something is missing. I believe we go through a lot of changes as we progress during transition. Even our character, or conscious mind is transformed or changed. We are certainly not the same person when we reach the other end. Many of these changes are good but some are not. Maybe that is it, having to face the unknown.

Cindy     

I felt the same way before surgery, now what? The moment I woke up in the hospital, I felt I know what now. I'm here and the journey is over. I can be me now. I felt whole for the first time. I was wrong about the journey, its still going on, but in a good way. I feel so happy and relieved that I have a whole new life ahead of me. It's my new journey, not like in my previous years. It's my awakening.
Sheila

[Lisbeth]

Yet, one thing bugs the hell out of me and I wish I could explain this (being post-operative, I should maybe forget about this but I just thought I'd bring it up).. as a child I remember a short phase where I was scared I'd turn "physically" into a girl suddenly... you'd think the idea would appeal to me... but I was also raised in a fairly gender-conformist environment... Could this have been because I was taught that "being a boy" was right?   

I would hazard to guess that you had learned that behaving in an unapproved way resulted in punishment.  So you knew that if you suddenly turned into a girl they would punish you for it.

I always dreamed that I would wake up being a girl. Of course it never happened... So, I never got the socialization of either gender.

I had the same desire to wake up a girl, but I was socialized as both genders and was never afraid that it would result in punishment.

[Valentina]

I think what you were told at a young age was merely a coincidence. Your gender identity is as innate as your hair colour, eye colour, or even sexual orientation. Take me for example, I never had something strange instilled into me (such as it's wrong to think I'm a girl) at a young age, I was never abused, and nothing traumatizing occurred. I had a relatively naive childhood. My sexuality was always there however.  Gender identity is similar in that you are who you are with no real explanation except you were "born that way" and although a traumatizing event (whether physical or emotional) has occurred, that does not make your desire to be a girl anything less than natural, you're not a freak, and you do not have a disorder. I'm sure you already know that heh.

[IsabelleStPierre]

Your gender identity is as innate as your hair colour, eye colour, or even sexual orientation. Take me for example, I never had something strange instilled into me (such as it's wrong to think I'm a girl) at a young age, I was never abused, and nothing traumatizing occurred. I had a relatively naive childhood. My sexuality was always there however.  Gender identity is similar in that you are who you are with no real explanation except you were "born that way" and although a traumatizing event (whether physical or emotional) has occurred, that does not make your desire to be a girl anything less than natural, you're not a freak, and you do not have a disorder. I'm sure you already know that heh.

Seems the nature vs nurture debate is alive and well. It has been debated in just about every area of life and especially when talking about things mainstream people think to be outside of the norm. So, why should gender identity be any different...

I too believe that it is something that is in us at a biological level, that it is nature that made us this way to some extent. But, one also has to wonder if, while nature made us predisposed to this, that the influences in our lives didn't also have some influence on how we feel and view ourselves. I personally believe that it's a combination of the two influences that make us what we are...but that's just my opinion on the matter...

Nature made me this way...but one has to wonder if my being brought up in a household without a male influence for most of my life had anything to do with how strongly I feel about my transsexualism...then there is also the fact that I grew up with four sisters...did that not have some influence on me?? My only role models growing up were feminine...did that have an affect on me?? (Yes...but more on that later).

I don't think there is an easy clear cut answer to these types of questions; there are so many different variables and that alone makes it difficult to pinpoint.

As for my only having feminine role models in my life growing up...I can say that it did have a profound affect on me. Mannerisms are something that are usually socially learned while growing up and with no male role models around I latched onto the only ones available to me. This has been both a blessing and curse! When living in denial I had a hard time trying to even act male...which may be why I have been ma'am ed throughout my entire life...one friend said that when she met me for the first time my mannerisms screamed 'girl' even though I thought I was presenting as male...oh well...I now look upon those little things as blessings!

Just my thoughts on the subject...

Peace and love,
Izzy

[cindybc]

Hi Sheila
You got it sis, the best answer is to motivate yourself into action. Don't stay Idle get off your duff and do something, I aint ready for the bone yard yet. Yes it is wonderful to be us and simply be able to say, "I am me, I am woman" Climb up on top of a mountain and scream it for the world to hear. Live every second like it were my last one.

Cindy

[shanetastic]

Your gender identity is as innate as your hair colour, eye colour, or even sexual orientation. Take me for example, I never had something strange instilled into me (such as it's wrong to think I'm a girl) at a young age, I was never abused, and nothing traumatizing occurred. I had a relatively naive childhood. My sexuality was always there however.  Gender identity is similar in that you are who you are with no real explanation except you were "born that way" and although a traumatizing event (whether physical or emotional) has occurred, that does not make your desire to be a girl anything less than natural, you're not a freak, and you do not have a disorder. I'm sure you already know that heh.

Seems the nature vs nurture debate is alive and well. It has been debated in just about every area of life and especially when talking about things mainstream people think to be outside of the norm. So, why should gender identity be any different...

I too believe that it is something that is in us at a biological level, that it is nature that made us this way to some extent. But, one also has to wonder if, while nature made us predisposed to this, that the influences in our lives didn't also have some influence on how we feel and view ourselves. I personally believe that it's a combination of the two influences that make us what we are...but that's just my opinion on the matter...

Nature made me this way...but one has to wonder if my being brought up in a household without a male influence for most of my life had anything to do with how strongly I feel about my transsexualism...then there is also the fact that I grew up with four sisters...did that not have some influence on me?? My only role models growing up were feminine...did that have an affect on me?? (Yes...but more on that later).

I don't think there is an easy clear cut answer to these types of questions; there are so many different variables and that alone makes it difficult to pinpoint.

As for my only having feminine role models in my life growing up...I can say that it did have a profound affect on me. Mannerisms are something that are usually socially learned while growing up and with no male role models around I latched onto the only ones available to me. This has been both a blessing and curse! When living in denial I had a hard time trying to even act male...which may be why I have been ma'am ed throughout my entire life...one friend said that when she met me for the first time my mannerisms screamed 'girl' even though I thought I was presenting as male...oh well...I now look upon those little things as blessings!

Just my thoughts on the subject...

Peace and love,
Izzy

nature couldn't exist without nurture   I think they need to coexist.  But this has nothing to do with the subject was just reading about that nature nurture debate from you.

[Lisbeth]

Seems the nature vs nurture debate is alive and well.

Indeed it is.  My take on it has evolved over the last years and especially this year as I have been studying psychology.  It is my view that there is a spot in the hypothalumus that is about the size of a grain of rice that contains the bare piece of data "I am a boy" or "I am a girl."  Everything else about gender is learned, and we learn it by observing the people around us.  The ones we use as roll models for that learning are the ones whose gender matches that bit of data in the hypothalumus.  If that bit matches other people's view of our gender, then we get reinforced for learning the gender roll we do.  If it does not match other's view, then we frequently get punished.  With enough punishment, we begin to question that built-in bit of data, and try to conform to society's expectations.  Thus both our gender identity and our gendered behavior are affected by both nature and nurture.

[cindybc]

Hi Isabelle
I think you could find my name in a lot of different places on the web. I did start a blog but that's been so long ago I forget how to get to it. I have my name in 62 yahoo groups and and two message boards actually three it was about nanotechnology another was astrophysics, a science fiction one and 62 spiritual ones and this board. 

Cindy 

[IsabelleStPierre]

Greetings Everyone...

I think you could find my name in a lot of different places on the web. I did start a blog but that's been so long ago I forget how to get to it. I have my name in 62 yahoo groups and and two message boards actually three it was about nanotechnology another was astrophysics, a science fiction one and 62 spiritual ones and this board. 

Cindy 

Cindy, I had never really stopped to think about my name being out there before a friend asked if I had ever googled my name...I said no why??? She just said, go and do it sometime. I was a bit surprised! Out of the top 10 entries for my name 9 were actual posts I had made...guess that is what happens when you live your life a bit on the public side of things...

Indeed it is.  My take on it has evolved over the last years and especially this year as I have been studying psychology.  It is my view that there is a spot in the hypothalumus that is about the size of a grain of rice that contains the bare piece of data "I am a boy" or "I am a girl."  Everything else about gender is learned, and we learn it by observing the people around us.  The ones we use as roll models for that learning are the ones whose gender matches that bit of data in the hypothalumus.  If that bit matches other people's view of our gender, then we get reinforced for learning the gender roll we do.  If it does not match other's view, then we frequently get punished.  With enough punishment, we begin to question that built-in bit of data, and try to conform to society's expectations.  Thus both our gender identity and our gendered behavior are affected by both nature and nurture.

I couldn't agree with you more. I too firmly believe that nature made me pre-disposed to having gender identity problems and that it was my up brining that helped to push me more and more in that direction. I have always sort of wondered if my being raised in a household of just my mother and four sisters didn't in someway influence me. I know it has, especially in the area of socially learned behavior, like mannerisms, speak patterns, etc. I know we may never truly know...but I can at least question it!

Peace and love,
Izzy

[cindybc]

Hey! What can you say when your a celebrety you are a celebrity huh?  Now I would be happy to just have my picture in the National Enquierer or even on milk cartons. "hee, hee, hee."

Cindy

[Jennywocky]

Yes, nature vs nurture is definitely alive and well. And like most others I think it's both that impact gender identity (just like most behaviors and traits in life).

Gender identity is so complex that we'll probably never pinpoint an exact cause for anyone, but it seems like there are some very basic gender differentiations that occur in utero, that are later sculpted and shaped by environmental influences.

The conservative church's stance seems to focus on environment and suggests that it's all a matter of upbringing (e.g., Rekers and all those guys), but that never sat well with me because it felt much more intrinsic than that to me. My situation was not a great one, but it wasn't one where I was pushed in the direction of girlhood either.

[My father was an alcoholic and thus inaccessible; but my mother was not accessible to me either because she was the total opposite in personality from me and we never could really talk about anything. So I grew up alone, if anything... and the identification with female started in young childhood for me and was painfully and firmly entrenched by the time I remember reaching middle school.]

What seems likely is that gender identification begins with brain wiring during development, then is impacted by environmental influences in terms of how it manifests and how the child adjusts. We definitely know (e.g., David Reimer and others) that "developmentally normal" children have a gender identity firmly burned into the circuitry of their brain at birth; if I had been hardwired with the male identity, then I should not have been dealing with issues like this and in fact would have resisted overt attempts to push me towards femaleness... and instead it's the opposite.

[Dorothy]

You were probably thinking that being a boy is right. Heh I remember I was 4 when I was playing with mom's makeup and then I was given a lecture that I should be a boy. I was able to keep all this inside until the age of 10 and then I started realising that I was gender dysphoric. From 4-10 I experienced the same phase where I was scared I would turn into a girl and I was pretty much scared of girls because I thought that they would make me one of them. No, nothing wrong with you, that's what usually happens to transsexual people in their childhood.

[Kate]

as a child I remember a short phase where I was scared I'd turn "physically" into a girl suddenly... you'd think the idea would appeal to me... but I was also raised in a fairly gender-conformist environment... Could this have been because I was taught that "being a boy" was right?   

I grew up absolutely *terrified* someone would figure me out. One of the scariest things my parents used to say to me was, "You know, you were so cute as a baby, everyone thought you were a girl!" They said that SO often, it made me paranoid... I figured they HAD to know.

I'd TRY to not smile, try to act horrified and embarassed... fearing my "Of course they did!" feelings would show through.

In later years, I was always terribly embarassed of my body for looking kinda feminine. Men's clothing always looked stupid on me, especially things like dress shirts, so I spent my days terrified someone would notice somehow. I LIKED looking feminine, and yet... feared my deep, dark secret was leaking out constantly.

My beard took forever to sprout... and I was actually relieved in a way when it did, as I figured if something didn't happen soon, everyone would know I was a girl. And yet, it broke my heart at the same time.

So yes, I was conflicted... I so badly wanted to be a girl, but also so badly feared looking like one in any way would reveal my supposedly perverse insanity to the world.

~Kate~