Pellet Implants vs. Oral Estradiol (blue pills)

[JennJenn]

Spoke to a local doctor's office that does the bieTE estrogen pellets.   They want like $150 for initial consult, $385 for the medicine/insertion.  They say it lasts 4 to 6 months.

I talked to the receptionist there and she explained that the body only pulls the estrogen from the pellet on an as needed basis-- and that there is variability in how long they last depending on diet, stress, exercise, etc. I find this very interesting.  Wonder how it does this; I need to research this.

It makes sense then if what above is true and if what Dr. John R. Lee says about progesterone sensitizing estrogen receptors is true, that the pellet might last as long as year.  (Dr. John R. Lee says this throughout his book --What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause -- and mentions a bunch of studies for each chapter, in an appendix.  I need to read all the study reports myself to see with my own eyes.  However he's treated thousands of women, collaborated with similar minded doctors, and has done years and years of research on this -- so I bet I will find what he says is true; we'll see.)

I also need to research more about the excess estrones produced by the liver when it metabolizes oral estrogen.  There is like a 7 to 10 ratio of estrone to estradiol in oral estrogen and more like a 1-3 to 1 ratio with pellet and transdermal.   I have a lot of questions about excess estrones.  Like do they compete with estradiol for estrogen receptors, similar to how lignans do it in flax seed?  Would that slow down development, body fat redistribution etc?  Lots of questions.

[KayXo]

It makes sense then if what above is true and if what Dr. John R. Lee says about progesterone sensitizing estrogen receptors is true, that the pellet might last as long as year.  (Dr. John R. Lee says this throughout his book --What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause -- and mentions a bunch of studies for each chapter, in an appendix.  I need to read all the study reports myself to see with my own eyes.  However he's treated thousands of women, collaborated with similar minded doctors, and has done years and years of research on this -- so I bet I will find what he says is true; we'll see.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3297211

"Progesterone may also have an antagonistic activity against estradiol, mediated through a decrease in the replenishment of the estrogen receptor, and also through increased 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase which leads to accelerated metabolism of estradiol to estrone in the target organ."

Confirmed by several other sources and by the fact that progesterone opposes estrogenic effects on the uterus and breast.

I also need to research more about the excess estrones produced by the liver when it metabolizes oral estrogen.  There is like a 7 to 10 ratio of estrone to estradiol in oral estrogen and more like a 1-3 to 1 ratio with pellet and transdermal.   I have a lot of questions about excess estrones.  Like do they compete with estradiol for estrogen receptors, similar to how lignans do it in flax seed?  Would that slow down development, body fat redistribution etc?  Lots of questions.

On oral estradiol, I had lots of breast growth. On both gel and injections, where estradiol was at least as high as estrone or higher, I had no breast growth.

[Colleen_definitely]

I talked to the receptionist there and she explained that the body only pulls the estrogen from the pellet on an as needed basis-- and that there is variability in how long they last depending on diet, stress, exercise, etc. I find this very interesting.  Wonder how it does this; I need to research this.

I could totally see stress and such varying how rapidly they are dissolved, but the line about your body only going shopping for estradiol when it needs it is a load of hooey.  Figuring out a way to make that happen is one of those drug delivery holy grail things for researchers, and I haven't heard of anyone getting it right just yet.

[JennJenn]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3297211

"Progesterone may also have an antagonistic activity against estradiol, mediated through a decrease in the replenishment of the estrogen receptor, and also through increased 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase which leads to accelerated metabolism of estradiol to estrone in the target organ."

Confirmed by several other sources and by the fact that progesterone opposes estrogenic effects on the uterus and breast.

Even John R. Lee said progesterone in excess would do this.  Idea is to get them balanced.

It's interesting because I was taking a certain amount of estradiol per day orally for many years, then I took that same dose sublingual.  My breasts swelled up (along with substantial development) along with improvements to my skin. The swelling and development slowed down after about 2 months to where they were no longer swollen but definitely had more tissue.

Well when I started on progesterone cream (USP Progesterone), with 1/2 the dose of my oral estradiol, I had the same exact thing happen:  breasts are swollen and skin improvements.  And it feels like my breasts are developing all the same -- I'll let you know in month or two.  And now since I am on progesterone I should also get extra development since it'll be working on the lobules. Dr. John R. Lee also said the effects of the swelling are temporary and that they would wear off in about 2 months (interesting because that's how long extra dose of estradiol took to wear off, i presume due to resistance over time) and said it was the influence of estrogen due to sensitization of the receptors -- he said this can happen in women who were severely deficient in progesterone for a while.   

So this leads to me to believe if I was progesterone deficient (which I was since I didn't take it before), that the progesterone I rubbed on my skin absorbed immediately and started working, sensitizing estrogen receptors.   Making the 50% dose of oral estrogen work as well as 100% dose estradiol sublingual.

I've been reading on hystosysters forum that swelling and pms symptoms can happen if there is an imbalance of either hormone, not just too much progesterone, as I think you are lead to believe.

I haven't ruled out that, for the best development, cycling isn't a better method, since the two hormones would switch back and forth to balance each other out and not desensitize the receptors.  I need to look into this more.. just a thought I have.

Btw, I've read in other studies that excess doses of estradiol does in fact down regulate the receptors, makign the cells more resistant.  They do this for other hormones like insulin etc.. why not sex hormones as well?

[KayXo]

Even John R. Lee said progesterone in excess would do this.  Idea is to get them balanced.

Progesterone, not in excess, but progesterone, in any amount. The higher the dose, the stronger its anti-estrogenic effect.

Well when I started on progesterone cream (USP Progesterone), with 1/2 the dose of my oral estradiol, I had the same exact thing happen:  breasts are swollen and skin improvements.

Progesterone, like estrogen, swells up breasts because of progestogenic action.

said it was the influence of estrogen due to sensitization of the receptors -- he said this can happen in women who were severely deficient in progesterone for a while.

The idea that progesterone sensitizes estrogen receptors is in contradiction with all the studies out there. It is absolutely not supported by any clinical evidence.

Btw, I've read in other studies that excess doses of estradiol does in fact down regulate the receptors, makign the cells more resistant.  They do this for other hormones like insulin etc.. why not sex hormones as well?

I had the same thought but I don't think it's so much the quantity of the hormone in the blood but perhaps more the **constant** secretion of the hormones that eventually causes desensitization of receptors such as is the case with LhRh agonists.