I don't believe that I'm a girl

[josie76]

A couple of blood test options if you want to find out.

1. A karyotype test. This one replicates out your cells and then gets examined for chromosomes. Specifically pair number 23. If you have an extra chromosome then that will show up there as well as verify a normal XX status. I had one done to check for klienfelters just to be sure. In the US my insurance doesn't cover anything possibly trans related and so that one test cost me $700.

2. If there is nothing out of the ordinary with that test, then you could test both X genes for the presence of a SRY gene. This is what makes the protein to form one segment of the gonad structures to form testes. However a damaged SRY can limit testes formation and not inhibit ovary formation. It is possible for an SRY gene to be trans located to the fathers X chromosome during sperm genesis.




Another thought, have you been to a gynecologist and asked if everything is normal? Some medications like DES have been known to cause sexual organ development issues in normal genetic female babies. I'm not certain if the exact causality has been explained but there were plenty of cases of split, dual, or Y shaped uterus's in the time it was administered often.


So in a normal female baby there will be no protein called TDF produced as there is no SRY gene on X chromosomes. In that case by the 12th week the gonads will have formed ovaries. The female ducts will continue to develop as long as there is no testes produced hormone AMH present. Without testosterone the male ducts fade and are absorbed.

For a male baby by the 7th week TDF will form testes cells. These will release a hormone AMH that prevents the female ducts from developing and will form a second teste cell type which produce testosterone. Testosterone causes the male ducts to develop. Somewhere in this early period bone shapes are affected by male hormones. Specifically the shape and form of the sacroiliac joints and the shape of the kness and elbows pivot structures. Both of these are different in the average male and female although are not easily seen until adulthood especially the pelvic joints as there is much bone plate calcifying to do there between the ilium, ischium, and the pubic bones.

In some genetic males the development of the testes cells is delayed and both testes and ovarian cells form.

Mammalian development is so complex that many things can happen to affect how we are born.

[Mariah]

Having or not having things doesn't make someone xx or even xy for matter. Someone can still be intersex and have xx or xy chromosomes. It's sounds like it is possible or something similar for sure. It sounds like if you want to investigate it further a different doctor might be in order considering the road block you have hit with the current one. Hugs
Mariah

[Tomboy]

@Mariah I hope I will find the courage to go to another doctor... thnx for your answer.

@josie76, thanks for your detailled reply. I've never been to a gynecologist. This part of your answer makes me curious:

Somewhere in this early period bone shapes are affected by male hormones. Specifically the shape and form of the sacroiliac joints and the shape of the kness and elbows pivot structures. Both of these are different in the average male and female although are not easily seen until adulthood especially the pelvic joints as there is much bone plate calcifying to do there between the ilium, ischium, and the pubic bones.

Can you explain the differences? I've heard about the elbow differences before though I do not really know what is meant with it. Pics/explanations?

[josie76]

The elbow joint angles have a good deal of normal range of overlap between male and female norms, so not easy to see there. Basically for the elbow angle hold your arm out straight in front of you with the palms directly up. Then pivot just the outer arm at the elbow toward you without pivoting your should in any way. Have someone measure the angle your lower arm swings outward on the elbow joint. Look at a woman and a man each just holding their arms relaxed at their sides with palms facing inward. The woman's arm will angle outward some giving her the same free distance from her hips as the man has from his.

The knee is formed slightly different in the shape in women than in men. Look up gender specific knee replacements and just look at the profile differences. Also look up quadricep angle or Q angle. Men are usually 12 degrees or less while women are normally in the 15-16 degree range. For this one follow your upper leg bone down and imagine one line there. The other line would be the lower leg bone. The difference in the lower leg from the upper is the q angle. Because women's main pelvis bones are wider in proportion to their bodies the angle makes up that change so the lower legs can be parallel. Since I've read up on this I've noticed I can see it in my daughters legs. They both have lower legs that angle away from each other right now. By the time puberty and estrogen cause their hips to spread  their legs will be straight.

What got me started looking into all this was that I have always had a wide pelvis. Enough it made me self conscious my whole life. I believe I was a DES exposed baby. Born male my elbows are within the female normal range, my knees are right at 16 degrees. But since I had a male puberty my pelvic bones did not grow faster at the pubic symphysis or the ischium tilt out past verticle. So my pelvis is wider than my chest but I didn't get that feminine ideal shape of the hips extending wider that the pelvic crest. Sometimes when explaining myself to medical people I just kinda joke that I'm a freak of nature.

The pelvic bones you can't see the difference unless you're digging up an archeological site or have a 3D rendering from a CT scan or MRI. I asked for the CT scan CD from the hospital when I had to have an abdominal CT to check for kidney stones. Then there's a free to use software published on the Brazilian government healthcare website that can take the slice images from a scan and form a 3D rendering. It's free to download. It does take a long time to process the 3D images.

Ok the pelvis is made of 3 bones on each side. The ilium which you can feel as the crest bone above your hip. The ischium which is the two bones you sit on. The pubic bones that connect around to the front. Then in the middle is the sacrum which the spine sits on top of. The 3 pelvic bones on each side are connected by cartilage tissue when you are born. Over time this gets calcified until they fuse into one bone on each side of you. Estrogen in the puberty years and I to the 20s for most people will cause the lower ischium side to calcify faster so the ischium will end up either verticle or angled slightly outward. It also causes the pubic bones to grow length where they meet in the center front of you. This is the puberty widening of the pelvis.

However the shape of these bones is formed early in pregnacy. One of the big differences is the width of the sacrum. In an average male, the "Sacrial promontory" the rounded surface the spine sits on, is about half the width of the sacrum. In the average female it is about a third of the total width. This is because the sacrum itself is wider in the non androgen exposed fetus. Then the shape of the joint surface between the sacrum and the ilium on each side changes in a male. In a female the joint is short height wise. The sacrum tilts rearward much more. There is less joint surface so the adult pelvis can move for childbirth. The male sacrum is attached more vertically. The joint extends longer for a more sold bone structure.
The shape of those upper ilium are different. The male is narrow and taller. The female is shorter and flares outward more. It forms a funnel for the baby to move down through. Also why girls pelvises are wider in proportion to their bodies even pre puberty. (Again here is where my bones fit female standards).
Those lower ischium bones sit verticle or may angle outward after puberty in a girl. In a boy they angle inward.

I'll try to come back and edit this with links or pictures. I'll have to use my laptop. My iPad doesn't like to copy and paste very well.

[Tomboy]

The elbow joint angles have a good deal of normal range of overlap between male and female norms, so not easy to see there. Basically for the elbow angle hold your arm out straight in front of you with the palms directly up. Then pivot just the outer arm at the elbow toward you without pivoting your should in any way. Have someone measure the angle your lower arm swings outward on the elbow joint. Look at a woman and a man each just holding their arms relaxed at their sides with palms facing inward. The woman's arm will angle outward some giving her the same free distance from her hips as the man has from his.

Have looked it up on Google and found a picture , thanks!

What got me started looking into all this was that I have always had a wide pelvis. Enough it made me self conscious my whole life. I believe I was a DES exposed baby. Born male my elbows are within the female normal range, my knees are right at 16 degrees. But since I had a male puberty my pelvic bones did not grow faster at the pubic symphysis or the ischium tilt out past verticle. So my pelvis is wider than my chest but I didn't get that feminine ideal shape of the hips extending wider that the pelvic crest. Sometimes when explaining myself to medical people I just kinda joke that I'm a freak of nature.

Huh really? I think that is really unique, and I understand that you would think that you were DES exposed in utero.

The pelvic bones you can't see the difference unless you're digging up an archeological site or have a 3D rendering from a CT scan or MRI. I asked for the CT scan CD from the hospital when I had to have an abdominal CT to check for kidney stones. Then there's a free to use software published on the Brazilian government healthcare website that can take the slice images from a scan and form a 3D rendering. It's free to download. It does take a long time to process the 3D images.

Have you seen your own pelvis on a scan, if yes, was it indeed as wide as it looked in real life?

Ok the pelvis is made of 3 bones on each side. The ilium which you can feel as the crest bone above your hip. The ischium which is the two bones you sit on. The pubic bones that connect around to the front. Then in the middle is the sacrum which the spine sits on top of. The 3 pelvic bones on each side are connected by cartilage tissue when you are born. Over time this gets calcified until they fuse into one bone on each side of you. Estrogen in the puberty years and I to the 20s for most people will cause the lower ischium side to calcify faster so the ischium will end up either verticle or angled slightly outward. It also causes the pubic bones to grow length where they meet in the center front of you. This is the puberty widening of the pelvis.

Are the areas of the lovehandles also a part of the pelvis or are that the public bones, or just a part of the back? I'm sorry if this sounds stupid, lol, but I want to be sure 

The shape of those upper ilium are different. The male is narrow and taller. The female is shorter and flares outward more. It forms a funnel for the baby to move down through. Also why girls pelvises are wider in proportion to their bodies even pre puberty. (Again here is where my bones fit female standards).

So even female children have wider pelvises? Silly question, but are kids jeans also made differently because of this? I could not wear any jeans normally when I was younger, maybe I had a boyish pelvis?

Thanks for your answer btw and I look forward to the pictures

[josie76]

Have you seen your own pelvis on a scan, if yes, was it indeed as wide as it looked in real life?

Yes I asked a couple of doctors if they would look at the images. My at the time new primary MD thought I had been given the wrong CT scan CD by the hospital radiology dept. He said from the front view he would have thought it was a woman. I later was talking with a PA doing my annual physical and after she asked if my hormones were for transition we just chatted it up. So she looked at them then asked if i cared if the other PA working that day could see them. I had the images on my phone. They were both surprised by how much my bones do look female, except for no real spreading in the front by the pubic symphasis joint. Obviously because of no female puberty. However my regular MD was convinced when he realized my hernia repair staples are clearly shown in the images.

I had a thread here that I posted my own CT scan 3D images. The thread is on the second page currently. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,217193.0.html

Huh really? I think that is really unique, and I understand that you would think that you were DES exposed in utero.

Yeh, my mom remembers taking a prescription "vitamin" when she was pregnant with me. From what little info there is, DES was still being mixed in prescription only prenatal vitamins and some doctors continued to prescribe DES directly. In 1971 the FDA sent out a bulletin stating DES was no longer labeled for use as miscarrige prevention. That didn't stop doctors from using it. My mom was 19 so she didn't question what the doctor said to do.

Are the areas of the lovehandles also a part of the pelvis or are that the public bones, or just a part of the back? I'm sorry if this sounds stupid, lol, but I want to be sure

So that bone ridge that starts on each side and goes back around to the center of the back are the ilium bones. That top edge is referred to as the iliac crest. That's the top bone in the adult fused pelvis. The ischium extends downward and the pubic bones extend forward. These three bones meet in the very center of the hip socket.

So even female children have wider pelvises? Silly question, but are kids jeans also made differently because of this?

When they are babies I don't think the differences are clear but there bone shapes are set differently. When we are newborn, there is more flexable cartilage in the pelvis than bones. I've noticed since researching this that girls pelvic widths do fill in wider than boys seem to. Both of my daughters have pevises wider than their rib cages are and that's at 6 and 8 years old.  Just casual observation but doesn't seem that boys their ages do that. Again though the sacrum is wider in girls than boys.


If these pic links show, you can see the basic outline difference in female and male adult pelvic bones. Now These are pretty textbook examples as there is a wide variety of bone shapes in different people.







you can also do a google search on anthropological skeleton sexing. That should provide a few good university sites that can describe the process of trying to determine sex by skeletal features.

[Tomboy]

@josie76 It looks 100% female to me! (also because I don't fully recognize the differences.) Do you believe the DES made you transgender? It's almost like you were/are predestined to become female.. (I'm sorry if I am saying something wrong/bad, I don't really understand transissues!) Very "special" that people can have an intersexed pelvises, and thanks for the information and your personal story..

I have but one question, and that is, is female pelvis growth very obvious to a girl? Because I barely had and have any widening of the hips. Now I see that people can have an intersex pelvis: how to tell from the outside if I have a male pelvis? or is that also impossible to tell without a scan?

[josie76]

Well first I do think DES likely had a lot to do with me being transgender. It is extremely effective at blocking androgen receptors. It latches to the receptors in the cells but not in a way that will activate them. I suspect this easily blocked the androgen's during much of my brains 1st and 2nd trimester formative periods. It's my best guess as of now. I've also considered that I might have a mild form of AIS (androgen insensitivity syndrome). I would like to get that blood test done but with my insurance from work being against any transgender healthcare I would have to pay the full $1000+ cost of it. I did have my blood checked for any trisomy condition like kleinfelter's syndrome. That came back as normal 46 XY chromosomes. But that test does not check the structure of the actual genes on those chromosomes.
So I would suspect that enough DES at the right time would disrupt what effect androgen hormones have on prenatal bone shapes.



I can only relay my own personal experience. When I was nearing puberty years like around 11, my pelvis grew faster than my shoulders by a good bit. You know those awkward years when your body size changes rapidly? So for example when cutting through an open doorway, normal boys will catch their shoulders on the door frame once in a while. That's because their shoulders are growing and their brain hasn't learned how to adjust to their bodies increase in size there yet. Well for me, I hit my pelvis on door frames. For a couple of years I had bruises on the front of both pelvic crests from bumping things. My chest did not thicken until later in high school. Even then my shoulders were pretty narrow. My rib cage always remained narrower than my pelvis.
So for me I would look in the mirror and on one hand see me almost looking like a girl, but on the other feeling extremely self concious about my body shape. I always wore oversized shirts and hated any time I had to tuck my shirt in like wearing dress clothes to church or other event. I was always afraid someone would see what I saw and make fun of me. Goes back to 1st grade when I learned hanging out with the girls got you beat up and picked on more than just being something other than a alpha male.

I've seen guys who were somewhat pear shaped. I don't know if their pelvis form is like mine or not. I think it takes a CT or MRI to get that information. But the guys I have seen like that were also very tall and large boned guys so maybe something totally different. I grew to 5-11ft tall but I have slender wrists. From the CT scan I know my acetabelum (hip socket) is in the size of a small man or large woman range. Too small for a normal 5-11 man. My hands are bigger than say my wife's who is a larger boned girl but my hands have been dwarfed by men I have shaken hands with. I never developed the larger size skull or square jaw like most guys have. Of 3 boys born in my family, I'm the shrimp. My older brother is 6-3 and my younger one is 6-7 tall.

I have spent a large amount of time studying medical and anthropological information. In my research and my pelvis, I have not found one "normally" male marker, but have found all the "normal" female ones.





The only thing I can say is that, if as an adult born female, your pelvis and hips are about the same as your ribs then its possible. Generally a male type pelvis will have those bottom bones (the ischium) angled inward and the sacrum at a lesser angle to the verticle. Makes the pelvic outlet a lot smaller. I have read where some women have what is called an "android" pelvis. This means it is essentially the same as a male. Also noted in some articles was that these women usually required a C-section as normal childbirth was not possible due to the small pelvic outlet.

EDIT: I remember one member here posted a scan from a maybe PET? scan. She paid just a small fee and got a basic bone skeletal picture from a place in a mall in the UK. Might have been a bone density scan?

[Doreen]

Sounds familiar, only on the opposite side of the spectrum.  My mother has NOT been terribly forthcoming about my birth, and all she will ever tell me is 'You were born male'  Then when I showed her my hormone levels at 21, saying less than 3 testosterone (basically nonexistent) and perimenopausal estrogen she tried to 'help' me buy buying some testosterone supplements.   She didn't seem surprised one bit when I told her.   HOWEVER when I told her I felt like I was always female and ws choosing to be one, she then told me she "Wish I'd never been born".  She still feels that to this day apparently.

I think you read my story (as you responded to it), but I also have a wider than normal hip measurements... its 41" and my waist is 30" wide.   ITs actually wider than my shoulders are.  Certainly not a typical male measurement to it.   My waistline is very 'girly' as is most of me.   I didn't have a lot of pubic hair till after I started HRT in my 20's.   I also had very little facial hair (still have a few tweezable ones though), and no body hair to speak of.

In the end, get therapy, get surgery if you think you need it.  You be you, and to hell with all the naysayers (especially delusional parents)  out there.  Just my personal fighter approach to it all.

In all honesty she was working as a nurse when I was born, and my father was in prison.  I highly suspect her of obtaining vitamins or birth control that was recently discovered in the 70's to cause these sorts of issues.  Will she ever admit that??   She'd take that secret to her grave, this I know. .. so I'll never know for certain, ever, from her.  Either something like this, or just the mysterious quirk of nature touching her finger on me & causing me to go haywire in the birth canal.  (I have other congenital issues, recently discovered too). 

[Tomboy]

@josie, Your story is very interesting, and I hope you will find all answers. And it's very cool that you know so much about anthropological information! You indeed have a very narrow jaw, it's almost an typical female oval shape. And I don't see much of a brow ridge on your pic. No offense, actually that you have more potential to pass as female. The similiary between us is that I'm the opposite with my pelvis and jaw. Is the android pelvis medically considered as male? Look what I found on the Internet: https://image.slidesharecdn.com/anatomyofthebonypelvis-150205155639-conversion-gate02/95/anatomy-of-the-bony-pelvis-a-study-in-android-structure-12-638.jpg?cb=1429104502

@Doreen First, thanks for contributing to this discussion! Your story sounds pretty harsh actually, your mother wishing that you were not born. I'm sorry for your mother saying that, she probably has some issues. I have no idea if that sounds like intersex but josie can tell you a lot about female/male differences It's very confusing that parents can have secrets for their own child..maybe she did take bcp or vitamines and she feels guilty. I wish you the best, and thanks for your advice. I don't think about surgery btw, maybe therapy.

[josie76]

Tomboy, I certainly take no offense in any way especially to you saying you think I look feminine. I only wish I had less masculine facial traits. I have a very manly looking nose. My chin is long enough to be average for a male. I have slight brow bossing. Not bad which I'm thankful for. Enough I still consider the idea of brow forehead surgery someday. I'll see when the time comes. For some of us MTFs just removing that brow makes other people not question if we are trans or not just by first sight.
My avatar picture has a slight filter applied to make my beard shadow less noticeable. I have been getting laser on it but there are still dark patches that are difficult to cover. I have been told I have a bit of an androgynous face. When I was a kid up to early teens I often heard from strangers how I'd make such a pretty girl with my long lashes. That was hard to listen to back then. Of course I wish I still had that young face with less T changes to it. Well if I am wishing I suppose I wish the information that is now available on the web was available back then too. My life would have been different that's for certain.

As far as an android pelvis, I've just seen it listed as the second most common of four pelvic shapes behind gynocoid which is by far more common in women. It is essentially the same as a male pelvis structure. Estrogen during puberty can still cause some widening of the hip position due to its influence on which bone growth plates get the most calcification done. But that depends on the level of estrogen available at that time. Some young MTFs can end up with a body that looks from the outside just like any cis female. Some is pelvic bone growth and some is body fat deposit based. However some markers such as the sacrum and its joint to the ilium on each side do not change. These things would require a scan to "see" the differences. The average cis girls pelvis will continue to see a slow widening until the pelvic bones fuse together, normally in the mid twenties.

That web page you found is interesting. Just that slide would infer that women with android pelvises may often have some other factor at play like perhaps low estrogen levels. I haven't read anything specific to that before, but then again I wasn't looking in that direction before. Interesting that you say your jaw is also more square. There is some just plain family traits to a wider jaw bone, but most males develop a sharp angle on their jawbones back closer to the hinge point. Testosterone also normally causes the end of the chin to both be longer in relation to the face but also squares it off. In about 50% of cis males it will square off so much that their lower front teeth will form a straight line instead of a curve. Closely inspect some photos of what are often referred to as attractive male actors and both the jaw and chin along with a developed brow ridge are common traits.


Doreen, I think I saw on another page that you had a sonogram that actually showed a formed uterus and cervix inside you but were born with a mostly formed male looking part? From all my research into fetal development I might offer a theory if you want.

I would suspect if you think there is a chance your mom took something that you might be genetic female. That would explain having fully formed uterus and cervix. If you had been born with a Y chromosome the SRY gene should have produced a protein called testes determining factor. This would have caused part of the proto gonads to form the first kind of testes cell and produce AMH AntiMullerian Hormone. This hormone would have prevented the Müllerian ducts from growing into the uterus and cervix. On the other hand if she took something which acted similar to DHT then your external generals would form male looking parts and not have a connecting vagina to the uterus. Just a thought.

[Tomboy]

I'm happy you don't take that as a offence, like I don't speak that much to transgenders. Despite the nose, you still have a high chance of passibility (no idea how to spell it, I am Dutch). There is a wide variaty of noses so I don't think you have to stress about that! And yes the android pelvis could be associated with hormonal problems: https://image.slidesharecdn.com/anatomyofthebonypelvis-150205155639-conversion-gate02/95/anatomy-of-the-bony-pelvis-a-study-in-android-structure-13-638.jpg?cb=1429104502 This website states that excessive androgens may produce an android pelvis: http://www.gfmer.ch/Obstetrics_simplified/contracted_pelvis.htm

but most males develop a sharp angle on their jawbones back closer to the hinge point. Testosterone also normally causes the end of the chin to both be longer in relation to the face but also squares it off. In about 50% of cis males it will square off so much that their lower front teeth will form a straight line instead of a curve.

Do you have pics? Especially about the last sentence. I mean so much celebs with different jaws that I don't know what to look at. In the Netherlands there is almost no detailled information about sex differences let along about masculine jaw development

[josie76]

I'm going to try to link in a couple of pictures that show men with the "ideal" masculine jaw shapes.

   

So you can see how both the jaw flares or squares up but also the end of the chin flattens.

 

Notice how wide the chin area is on these skull examples. Also the flare outward of the corner of the jawbone. It extends downward and outward on most male jaws. On female jaws it remains smaller and is inline with the rest of the jawbone or may even slope inward.



Then because of the chin development some of the time the lower teeth form a straight line insteadd of a curve. I found one study a while back where dentists reviewing pictures could correctly identifiy the sex of the person 50% of the time. While not a high percentage, this is the factor that will identify a male.

[Tomboy]

I had no time to reply but thanks for the info! ^^