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Stealth is soul destroying?

Started by noitsbecky, October 08, 2017, 08:13:59 PM

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Nina

This conversation reminds me of the first, and only transgender group I met in person. I attended thinking I'd find likeminded people like myself.
The president of the chapter was talking about pride events in my city and surrounding towns. I still recall her calling out the new people to come out, be proud, carry the flag. I declined as activism and attending pride wasn't my thing.
I've never been back only because I don't want to be told what I should be doing, and if I don't, making me feel guilty.
2007/8 - name change, tracheal shave, electrolysis, therapy
2008 - full time
2014 - GCS Dr. Brassard; remarried
2018 (January)  - hubby and I moved off-grid
2019 - plan originally was to hike PCT in 2020, but now attempting Appalachian Trail - start date April 3.
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Devlyn

Quote from: Allie24 on October 10, 2017, 09:11:09 AM

I think it depends on what you view being trans to be. I consider it to be a medical condition. Do people go around talking about having cancer or struggling with schizophrenia in casual conversation? Not in America, that's for sure. Unless you are really close to the other person, or your particular illness may present itself in a very obvious way and you will need others' assistance, or just an open person in general.

I am not sure if you come from America or not, but please, have some respect for our culture. Individualism and privacy are important to a lot of us, and for those who wish to retain it, let them retain it. If trouble comes knocking on our doors, we'll fight it. And don't think we aren't grateful for those who put their necks out for us, because their work really does mean a lot.

Two words for you: Pink Ribbons.   :)

Hugs, Devlyn
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Evolving Beauty

To  ME personally stealth is SOUL-SHIELDING!
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zirconia

I started writing some thoughts yesterday, but deleted the post because I thought I couldn't contribute anything meaningful. However what I now see happening makes me sad. I don't know whether this is helpful, but I hope it may be.

Where I live, a state of in-between is probably more common than in the West. Even the boundaries between transsexual and feminine homosexual are more blurred. In the past, when medical intervention was unavailable it was not uncommon for people to assume female language/speech patterns and clothing but retain a male voice and still be accepted as a part of society. These people knew they were conspicuous, so they mostly did not even try to hide what they were. Some became actors. Some ran bars. Those who worked in common occupations would usually dress male during the day but might also have another job where they let themselves free in the evenings. Those who were beautiful were admired. Those who were not just grinned and bore it.

These days medical intervention has helped many more people to blend in. Some fade into the woodwork. Many even now choose visible occupations. they are more profitable than an office job, and while Western attitudes have made some headway here, most people are still either tolerant or supportive.

Warlockmaker lives in a similar society. I know it is very different in the West.

I myself work with an European man. I never advertise my gender. Many people who see us together assume I'm his wife. Luckily he is mostly amused and bemused. However, he also tells me that were I to live in his country I'd probably be either extremely scarred or extremely strong. That does sound frightful. If I did have to live there, I'd probably have hurried to get all operations I could to eliminate every trace of masculinity I can find. Else I might have tried to assume a masculine persona to survive.

Were I to move somewhere and start completely anew here, I might possibly be able to completely fade into the woodwork. However, as long as I associate with people who've known me for longer it is not possible. In any case I feel happy when new acquaintances continue to see me as a woman even when it happens that people who have known me as a man refer to me using male terms.

For those whose features are so masculine that this can't happen, the option of being inconspicuous is less real. I can't forget an elderly lady I saw dressed in a long flowing white dress who tried not to look at anyone as she hurried down a station staircase. She seemed very unaccustomed to high heels, and had a shadow on her chin. She tripped, and I wanted to ask if she was all right, but it was obvious that she only hoped everyone would ignore her, and sped away from the scene looking at the ground. Had she been confident of herself, she would not have attracted nearly as much attention as she did by trying to be invisible. When "stealth" is not a realistic option, I do think absolute openness may be more charming and safe.

That said, I do believe the circumstances we find ourselves in are all different. I am fortunate. Some are not. Some live in danger. Each one of us has to make choices based on the options available to us.

I do hope we can all understand this, and respect and accept each other.
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Bari Jo

Quote from: Nina on October 10, 2017, 09:32:52 AM
This conversation reminds me of the first, and only transgender group I met in person. I attended thinking I'd find likeminded people like myself.
The president of the chapter was talking about pride events in my city and surrounding towns. I still recall her calling out the new people to come out, be proud, carry the flag. I declined as activism and attending pride wasn't my thing.
I've never been back only because I don't want to be told what I should be doing, and if I don't, making me feel guilty.

I agree with you there.  I'm not an activist, never have been.  I support transgender rights of course, but being pushed into activism is common at groups and is a common discussion too.  I hate it and always try to change the conversation.

That said, stealth doesn't mean shame to me, it means living life as a woman, and nobody questions it.  I would love to be able to transition this well, that I could do that.  I may not be able to be stealth, but that doesn't make me ashamed to not be an activist.  I was ashamed for repressing being trans.  I'm clawing my way out of that.  I don't want anybody telling me it's one shame cave or another.
you know how far the universe extends outward? i think i go inside just as deep.

10/11/18 - out to the whole world.  100% friends and family support.
11/6/17 - came out to sister, best day of my life
9/5/17 - formal diagnosis and stopping DIY in favor if prescribed HRT
6/18/17 - decided to stop fighting the trans beast, back on DIY.
Too many ups and downs, DIY, purges of self inbetween dates.
Age 10 - suppression and denial began
Age 8 - knew I was different
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Allie24

Quote from: zirconia on October 10, 2017, 09:54:26 AM
I started writing some thoughts yesterday, but deleted the post because I thought I couldn't contribute anything meaningful. However what I now see happening makes me sad. I don't know whether this is helpful, but I hope it may be.

Where I live, a state of in-between is probably more common than in the West. Even the boundaries between transsexual and feminine homosexual are more blurred. In the past, when medical intervention was unavailable it was not uncommon for people to assume female language/speech patterns and clothing but retain a male voice and still be accepted as a part of society. These people knew they were conspicuous, so they mostly did not even try to hide what they were. Some became actors. Some ran bars. Those who worked in common occupations would usually dress male during the day but might also have another job where they let themselves free in the evenings. Those who were beautiful were admired. Those who were not just grinned and bore it.

These days medical intervention has helped many more people to blend in. Some fade into the woodwork. Many even now choose visible occupations. they are more profitable than an office job, and while Western attitudes have made some headway here, most people are still either tolerant or supportive.

Warlockmaker lives in a similar society. I know it is very different in the West.

I myself work with an European man. I never advertise my gender. Many people who see us together assume I'm his wife. Luckily he is mostly amused and bemused. However, he also tells me that were I to live in his country I'd probably be either extremely scarred or extremely strong. That does sound frightful. If I did have to live there, I'd probably have hurried to get all operations I could to eliminate every trace of masculinity I can find. Else I might have tried to assume a masculine persona to survive.

Were I to move somewhere and start completely anew here, I might possibly be able to completely fade into the woodwork. However, as long as I associate with people who've known me for longer it is not possible. In any case I feel happy when new acquaintances continue to see me as a woman even when it happens that people who have known me as a man refer to me using male terms.

For those whose features are so masculine that this can't happen, the option of being inconspicuous is less real. I can't forget an elderly lady I saw dressed in a long flowing white dress who tried not to look at anyone as she hurried down a station staircase. She seemed very unaccustomed to high heels, and had a shadow on her chin. She tripped, and I wanted to ask if she was all right, but it was obvious that she only hoped everyone would ignore her, and sped away from the scene looking at the ground. Had she been confident of herself, she would not have attracted nearly as much attention as she did by trying to be invisible. When "stealth" is not a realistic option, I do think absolute openness may be more charming and safe.

That said, I do believe the circumstances we find ourselves in are all different. I am fortunate. Some are not. Some live in danger. Each one of us has to make choices based on the options available to us.

I do hope we can all understand this, and respect and accept each other.

This was very beautifully written and well thought out! Thank you.
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Anne Blake

I want to thank Zirconia for a well thought out and calming message that most of us can relate to. This is a very good topic that sparks lots of discussion. This is both good and bad. The good is obvious, the bad is the anger and derision that it generates. All here have had to deal with living a transgender life, our stories have similarities and differences. Please lets keep Susan's a place that promotes growth, dialog, healing and support. We owe each other that much.

In love and appreciation of you all,
Anne
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myraey

Being in the closet is soul crushing. And not really knowing if this is really for you even more so. In this context I would not go for total stealth. Some do not have the option for stealth. It's just being honest and open. It is important one can even share these basic things.
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SadieBlake

Quote from: warlockmaker on October 10, 2017, 05:55:20 AM
Be stealth if you wish but its not a healthy mental state. And yes, its a fact, we are all TGs, like it or not. More and more countries are giving or considering 3rd gender IDs.
..
Proud to be trans  absolutely. Insulting? Who is going to fight for our rights. Those in stealth ? No. If you are stealth then you owe those who boldly fight for your rights. We fight for the next generation so that they can be proud. Remember gay pride has been effective. Before that gays lived in the closet.

@wlm you are in no wise in a position to judge whether someone else's mental state is healthy and it should be pretty obvious that someone who's trans and identifies in the binary doesn't by definition consider themselves a third gender.

As for insulting, you're misreading the comment, of course your pride in whatever you're about is fine by all of us. What's insulting is your presumption that your experience gives you the right to be demeaning of others experiences or choices (to be clear, 1 questioning mental health, 2 assuming that one can only be an activist while being out ... I could cherry pick several other examples).

Your comparisons to being out as a gay, lesbian ... are also off the mark. By the same token that trans people who don't fully pass have always been among the most visible of the LGBT population and therefore at relatively higher risk of bashing and physical attack, those who pass are entirely invisible and unlike gays who need to hide what they do sexually or who they love to be in the closet, what do we have to hide? Simply living in our true gender is a set of physical facts.

If I had had any reasonable expectation of passing I'd have transitioned 20 years ago, I'd have ditched my abusive family in a heartbeat and I'd be simply living as a woman. If it weren't for the despicably bigoted family I am part of, I'd probably have figured out I'm female before puberty and perhaps obviated testosterone making it so hard to pass.

Finally to activism. Some of the most effective activists I've known have been closeted in one or another aspect of their sexual identity or preference. In particular a dear friend who was and still is an influential member of NOW achieved changes in that organization's policies and political platform that helped move the face of mainstream feminism from exclusionary towards the intersectional 3rd wave of today. Had she not been closeted about some aspects of her life she would haven't had the credibility to influence the organization.

I've been an activist for both issues of legality of bdsm activities and trans issues and I did so without being out with my family or with my ex (no amount of community good would be worth risking a custody battle with my ex).
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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Mariah

Guess we just can't have nice things. Thread locked.

:police:
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