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Can a trans woman be cisgender?

Started by Miss Clara, December 08, 2017, 01:04:34 PM

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Miss Clara

It's a serious question.  Hear me out please.

The Merriam Webster definition of transgender is:

of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth.

It seems that being transgender hinges on the sex you're assigned at birth versus the gender identity you experience afterward.  If they don't match, you're transgender; if they do match you're cisgender.

Children are typically assigned a sex at birth based solely on the appearance of their genitals.  But science has concluded that a person's physical sex constitutes more than just the appearance of the genitals; the sexual differentiation of the brain is critical in establishing sexual identity.   Be that as it may, children are raised as the gender that's associated with their assigned sex.  If they are uncomfortable living as that gender, sooner or later they choose to transition to their preferred gender.  They are by definition transgender.

But, let's consider the same child who is assigned a sex not simply on the appearance of her genitals, but on a comprehensive scan of her body and brain which reveals that she's likely to identify as female as a child.  Given the results of the scan, and knowing how important it is to make the right gender assignment, her parents agree to record 'female' on her birth certificate and name her Lily.   She is raised as a girl.  She grows up happy as a girl except for the fact that one day, to her consternation, she discovers that her girl friends don't have penises.  She accepts her parents' explanation for the anomaly and what they can do to correct it later on, and she remains a happy, well-adjusted girl.

By definition, Lily is not transgender because she's happily living as a girl; a girl with a penis, but a girl nevertheless.  Still, she'd like her private parts to be like other girls, so as puberty approaches, at her request, and with confirmation from her psychologist that she's indeed a happy, well adjusted girl, her parents make arrangements with a medical team to place her on female hormones and to surgically reconstruct her genitalia to match her gender identity.  It all takes place without anyone knowing about it.  There's no coming out, no social transition, no controversy over bathroom use.  Lily is the same girl she's always been.

One could argue she's a transsexual woman since her male genitals were converted to female, but the label doesn't quite fit either. She's not undergoing sexual reassignment because she was assigned female at birth based on the scan that showed she was born with a female brain, the most immutable sexual organ.  Lily is cisgender, just as other intersex people are who are assigned the correct gender at birth despite their congenital condition.   

I present this not so hypothetical thought experiment to make a point.  The point is that being transgender is not an inherent attribute of a person.  It is a consequence of having been assigned the wrong gender at birth.  It's not as much an error of nature, as it is human error; understandable, given our limited understanding of sex and gender and lacking the technology to make better decisions, but an error nonetheless.

Many intersex children grow up perfectly happy people.  Some aren't even aware of their intersexuality.  Few people know that Julia Child was genetically male (XY chromosomes).  She had a congenital condition CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome).  She was born with female external genitalia so assigned female at birth.  She was raised happily as a girl.  Only her 6'-2" stature and infertility hinted at her intersex condition.  Had her androgen insensitivity been partial, she might have been assigned male at birth despite having a female brain, and suffered gender dysphoria.

I contend that the official definition of intersex should include as one of its conditions, the sexual differentiation of the brain opposite the sexual differentiation of the gonads.  The brain structure of males and females are demonstrably different which accounts for at least some people questioning their gender, experiencing gender dysphoria, transitioning genders, and battling the intolerance of an uninformed population.
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DawnOday

Based on the Christian definition of birth. At conception.  WE are all women. Having dangling parts down the line don't matter. So this basically blows apart their objection based on the Bible.
Dawn Oday

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Jailyn

This is a complicated one, but here is what I think. As a community we refer to women that are born female naturally, but since we as trans have a female brain.......in a way we could say that we are cis-gender. Are we fully cis obviously not as said what dangles below does not define me any less female as any other. This would be all complicated if we asked people what gender they think intersex individuals are? I say they are like most of us, let them decide when they are older. We don't need to do it for them.
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MaryT

I think that using dictionary definitions as the basis for logical arguments can lead to sophistry. 

In Clara Kay's hypothetical situation, Lily has a female mind in a male body.  The fact that she does not know that fact does not mean that she is not transsexual or transgender.  It just means that she does not suffer from gender dysphoria.

In my case, I was eight years old before I found out that boys and girls have different genitalia.  At the time I was dysphoric not about my genitalia but about my clothes and hair.  I was still a girl in a boy's body, though, even though I didn't know it. 

PS Intersex is a somewhat different and more complicated issue but Lily is not intersex, as I understand it.
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Kylo

Quote from: Clara Kay on December 08, 2017, 01:04:34 PM
I present this not so hypothetical thought experiment to make a point.  The point is that being transgender is not an inherent attribute of a person.  It is a consequence of having been assigned the wrong gender at birth.  It's not as much an error of nature, as it is human error; understandable, given our limited understanding of sex and gender and lacking the technology to make better decisions, but an error nonetheless.

There is apparently a Canadian couple requesting not to have their child's gender given on its birth certificate, or in other words for their child to "remain genderless". By the rationale above, this child could not be transgender because transgenderism is a consequence of incorrect gendering at birth. But if the child does happen on the offchance to be a transsexual they will still have an issue with brain-body disconnect regardless of what's on the birth certificate, and in that case would still classify themselves/be diagnosed as such when seeking medical treatment and therapy, wouldn't they.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Lady Sarah

There are some that decide that once they have had SRS, they are no longer transgender. They consider themselves cured, and therefore, cisgender. Largely, the matter relates to semantics.
started HRT: July 13, 1991
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trach shave: November, 1998
married: August 16, 2015
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Miss Clara

Quote from: Viktor on December 08, 2017, 05:20:22 PM
There is apparently a Canadian couple requesting not to have their child's gender given on its birth certificate, or in other words for their child to "remain genderless". By the rationale above, this child could not be transgender because transgenderism is a consequence of incorrect gendering at birth. But if the child does happen on the offchance to be a transsexual they will still have an issue with brain-body disconnect regardless of what's on the birth certificate, and in that case would still classify themselves/be diagnosed as such when seeking medical treatment and therapy, wouldn't they.

Yes, I agree with your reasoning, Viktor.  Brain-body misalignment would require medical treatment.  But by definition, the child is not transgender because no gender transition is called for.  If she's not transgender, then she's cisgender, not being unhappy with the gender she was assigned at birth.  The child may still experience dysphoria, though, if nothing is done to align her body and brain.  The question remains, is she transsexual?  I say no because her sex was declared female at birth.  There is no sex change, only a surgical procedure to correct an congenital defect.  The situation is analogous to an intersex child born with ambiguous genitalia but assigned the correct gender at birth.  The child may still seek surgery at some point to normalize his or her genitals according to their gender identity.
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JMJW

It's because trans people are often treated like pariahs that people quite understandably want to disavow the trans term.  It all comes down to how society treats us. I could call myself cisgender all I want or someone else could define me that way, but if society still treats me as a "man in a dress" and/or different to a cisgender woman, then what does it matter? It would remain rhetorical, theoretical and hypothetical.
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verycuriousgeorge

sorry to revive such an ancient thread, i know it's a no-no, but the curiosity is killing me and i haven't been able to find any sources about Julia Child being intersex. could you post your source on that? i'd love to read up on it myself. thanks

Sarah B

Hello Verycuriousgeorge

My name is Sarah B   and I would like to formally, Welcome you to Susan's Place!

Quote from: verycuriousgeorge on April 05, 2024, 06:22:10 PMsorry to revive such an ancient thread, i know it's a no-no, but the curiosity is killing me and i haven't been able to find any sources about Julia Child being intersex. could you post your source on that? i'd love to read up on it myself. thanks

There is no need to be sorry for reviving an ancient thread.  In fact I'm glad you did, because it allows me to broaden my knowledge and I have never seen this thread and it intrigues me very much, that I'm inclined to provide my opinion on this topic.

The original poster Miss Clara has not been on for a long time and Susan's suffered a crash where a lots of posts no longer exist and information on when members where last logged on.  The reference to "Julia Child" only basically yields to the famous chef.  Her medical condition is not mentioned.  Unless Miss Clara comes back with the source.  Then I'm afraid you are out of luck.

We strive to make this a safe place to find information and to share your thoughts and comments regarding your journey. Just about everyone here has been confused about their gender at some point in their lives. Some discover they are transgender and others realize they are non-binary, while others may feel they fit best somewhere else along the gender spectrum. No matter where that may be, you are always welcome at Susan's Place.

Once you feel comfortable here, it would be appreciated if you add a little bit more about yourself in the Introductions Forums.  I'm always learning something new.

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Sarah B

Hi Everyone and VeryCuriousGeorge

I found a link with reference for Julia Child, the second slide contains the reference by Veronica Drantz, PhD.


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verycuriousgeorge

Quote from: Sarah B on April 05, 2024, 11:46:29 PMHi Everyone and VeryCuriousGeorge

I found a link with reference for Julia Child, the second slide contains the reference by Veronica Drantz, PhD.


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Sarah B
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Interesting! Thank you for linking that. How curious... I wonder where this information came from, I wish there was maybe some sort of interview with Julia where she disclosed this information, something directly or indirectly from her... the only thing I managed to find was this
If only OP was still active!
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Sarah B

Hi VeryCuriousGeorge

You are right there are no citations in the three stated areas namely:

  •     Miss Clara (Post)
  •     Intersex People (slide No 2 and Slide No 41)
  •     Instagram (Post)

So in conclusion, there is no credible information that Julia Child is intersex.

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LoriDee

I would agree that there is no evidence. I suspect it is just an internet rumor.
She was known for making homophobic comments until a friend died of AIDS. At that point, she began supporting LGBTQ rights. Since she worked for the OSS (CIA) for many years, and her file was totally declassified in 2008, there would be some evidence there. But there is no mention? I call BS.
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Devlyn

Welcome, George!

There is very little use in worrying about, or trying to assign, someone else's gender.

Hugs, Devlyn

LoriDee

@Devlyn

Well said, Devyln!
Sometimes we forget that our identity is how we see ourselves and it is not always apparent in the way we present to the world. Thanks for the reminder.

Hugs!
My Life is Based on a True Story.
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Maybe the journey isn't so much about becoming anything.
Maybe it's about un-becoming everything that isn't really you,
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