Using Student Loan for FFS

[OpheliaDL]

Alright gals, this is my first post and I'm truly excited to be here. Here's a little bit of background information so you can get a clear understanding of my situation and let me know your thoughts. I have been accepted into dental school (my dream) and as a result I want to get FFS. My parents gave me an incentive to choose a dental school close to home: full tuition paid for for all 4 years and $90,000 pocket money given to me over 4 years. Now, here's the thing, I wanted to get FFS BEFORE I started dental school (I'm currently booking my consult with Dr. Speigel) and I do have about $20k saved up. I do want extensive FFS, though I'm told I'm very passable: hairline lowering, rhinoplasty, adams apple reduction and chin/jaw reduction. So my plan of action was to take out a student loan, use it to pay off 1 year of dental school then have my parents give me the 1 year tuition in my bank account. I would then pay off the loan using the 90k I will recieve from my parents after 4 years. Is this a good idea? I've read many posts about people staying away from student loans and wanted your thoughts on my plan of action? Thank you <3.

[Dena]

Welcome to Susan's Place. While I have a credit card and took out a home loan that is paid off, I am not comfortable with credit that runs longer than a month. Student loans are worst because of the conditions attached to them. Interest continues to accrue until they are paid off but the real catch is you are stuck with them for life. You can't declare bankruptcy to clear the loan so if you are unable to pay it off, it stays with you for life.

Consider if you fail at dental school, you will be stuck with the loan and without the 90k. Even at best, you are handing over about 20k or more in interest that could be in your pocket. I know how badly you want FFS but I don't think it's a good idea.

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[Janes Groove]

Sounds like you are asking permission to abuse the system.

Student loans are for real students who want an education.  Not FFS.

[Roll]

Also, just in general, unless it is truly your only option student loans should be avoided as Dena said. Will your parents not give you a loan/advance for FFS? Though if you already have 20k saved up and are passable, you might want to consider just being a bit more economical on the FFS to begin with, or more flexible on your time frame. Being slightly more passable is all well and good, but not sure it is worth saddling yourself with that sort of loan even if we assumed the plan is feasible otherwise(legally, etc.). So much can go wrong, and that thing will just follow you. I mean there is a consideration of stuff like the features causing serious dysphoria, but if that is a concern then it seems like your parents might be more willing to work with you regardless?

[OpheliaDL]

Hey everyone, thank you for the replies:)

I should've mentioned that my parents don't know I'm transgender and would not financially support FFS. Also I don't want FFS just for the sake of passing, I have extreme dysphoria about my masculine features and have caused me so much anxiety and depression that I'm taking medication to combat it. I began hormones about a month ago. The main reason I would use some of my student loan money is that dental and medical school loans actually get better rates than a personal loan and have much better payback options (for instance, interest doesn't begin accumulating until after graduation). I personally wanted FFS before starting dental school for multiple reasons, the two main biggest ones being that I want to be my true self (both mentally and physically) when beginning dental school, and 2, in dental school you rarely have large breaks (the most break time you will get is around 2 weeks) so scheduling an FFS while in dental school, then having to recover and all that mess is something I want to avoid while there. Also I wouldn't be "abusing" the system, I could technically use that loan and pay off tuition, then ask for my parents for the money they were going to spend. It's not like I don't plan to pay it back

[OpheliaDL]

Also, Jane, are you insinuating I'm not a real student? Only a select few students have the opportunity to attend dental school, with acceptance rates of only 10%. Being a person of colour and a closeted transwoman has also not made this easy for me, yet I still managed to push through, was in the top 15% of my program for that year and got into dental school. So please, don't tell me that I'm not a real student.

[Devlyn]

Hi Ophelia, welcome to Susan's Place. Just playing Devyl's advocate here, what happens if your parents find out, react badly, and cut you out of their lives entirely? In life, it's best to expect the best but plan for the worst.

If you don't have the money for FFS, you probably shouldn't be planning it. Wait until you can pay for it, and see how the hormones treat you. You may not feel as strongly about FFS after estradiol softens you up for awhile.

Hugs, Devlyn

[Roll]

Hey everyone, thank you for the replies:)

I should've mentioned that my parents don't know I'm transgender and would not financially support FFS. Also I don't want FFS just for the sake of passing, I have extreme dysphoria about my masculine features and have caused me so much anxiety and depression that I'm taking medication to combat it. I began hormones about a month ago. The main reason I would use some of my student loan money is that dental and medical school loans actually get better rates than a personal loan and have much better payback options (for instance, interest doesn't begin accumulating until after graduation). I personally wanted FFS before starting dental school for multiple reasons, the two main biggest ones being that I want to be my true self (both mentally and physically) when beginning dental school, and 2, in dental school you rarely have large breaks (the most break time you will get is around 2 weeks) so scheduling an FFS while in dental school, then having to recover and all that mess is something I want to avoid while there. Also I wouldn't be "abusing" the system, I could technically use that loan and pay off tuition, then ask for my parents for the money they were going to spend. It's not like I don't plan to pay it back

Your parents not knowing does add a wrinkle there. I don't think that it is a legal requirement to use the student loans explicitly for education (and I've heard of people buying video game consoles with them plenty of times), but I still recommend extreme caution.

Would your parents react poorly if you did tell them? I mean if you came out to them, would they not pay for the schooling and give you the extra money basically in this context. If you think they would still support you, perhaps giving them a shot would be the better choice. I mean, I'm assuming you will have to tell them eventually (particularly if you get FFS, they aren't going to just not notice). I'll be honest, a big part of the reason I came out to my dad when I did was in hopes he would help me pay for my therapy appointments which I was covering out of pocket while on social security disability (which was literally a third of my monthly "allowance").

I just hate the idea of you shooting yourself in the foot with a bad loan when you don't have to. The horror stories about student loans are not overstated. (Though admittedly, dentistry is a lot more secure when it comes to paying back the loan post graduation than the people who have outstanding loans after paying 200k for a bachelors in philosophy.)

[Cassi]

Also, Jane, are you insinuating I'm not a real student? Only a select few students have the opportunity to attend dental school, with acceptance rates of only 10%. Being a person of colour and a closeted transwoman has also not made this easy for me, yet I still managed to push through, was in the top 15% of my program for that year and got into dental school. So please, don't tell me that I'm not a real student.

I read Jane's comment and it seems that she only said that student loans are for students to use for school, not for something else.  I didn't see anything that would have indicated that she was saying or in fact that you have said that would give any indications that you aren't a student. 

And based on your last comments regarding school acceptance, I think an atta girl is due for you! 

[OpheliaDL]

Your parents not knowing does add a wrinkle there. I don't think that it is a legal requirement to use the student loans explicitly for education (and I've heard of people buying video game consoles with them plenty of times), but I still recommend extreme caution.

Would your parents react poorly if you did tell them? I mean if you came out to them, would they not pay for the schooling and give you the extra money basically in this context. If you think they would still support you, perhaps giving them a shot would be the better choice. I mean, I'm assuming you will have to tell them eventually (particularly if you get FFS, they aren't going to just not notice). I'll be honest, a big part of the reason I came out to my dad when I did was in hopes he would help me pay for my therapy appointments which I was covering out of pocket while on social security disability (which was literally a third of my monthly "allowance").

I just hate the idea of you shooting yourself in the foot with a bad loan when you don't have to. The horror stories about student loans are not overstated. (Though admittedly, dentistry is a lot more secure when it comes to paying back the loan post graduation than the people who have outstanding loans after paying 200k for a bachelors in philosophy.)

Honestly, they would easily kick me out if they found out - they're Muslim. However, I don't think they'll find out, I've told them "i've felt ugly" about my face and never told them why (haha). Dentistry is VERY secure for loans (even students who get all of their tuition paid for via loans, pay back all the money within 5 years, and dental school is around 100-500k depending on where you go) so I know that WORST case scenario, even if I am kicked out, I'll be ok in the future - my job stability seems pretty good to me. Also, I'm canadian: all my hormones are free, along with therapy and SRS if i choose to go down that route so financially in those areas I'm not worried. My parents also arent the prying type, if i grew breasts, they would assume I got fat and not that I'm a female, If i got plastic surgery, they assume for completely cosmetic reasons (and not gender conforming) also, my father and I signed a contract which states that by law he must pay for all my tuition, in full, with an allowance of 90k, if he ever finds out and for isntance, kicks me out, he still must pay for everything (i sound like a total snob, I know lol)

[OpheliaDL]

I read Jane's comment and it seems that she only said that student loans are for students to use for school, not for something else.  I didn't see anything that would have indicated that she was saying or in fact that you have said that would give any indications that you aren't a student. 

And based on your last comments regarding school acceptance, I think an atta girl is due for you!

Thank you so much Cali! Honestly I chose dentistry because of its stability and that I can be my own boss (if i were to get a pracetice), being trans is scary as hell and you never know who might be your employer and what prejudices they might hold, also, the pay isnt bad either

[OpheliaDL]

Hi Ophelia, welcome to Susan's Place. Just playing Devyl's advocate here, what happens if your parents find out, react badly, and cut you out of their lives entirely? In life, it's best to expect the best but plan for the worst.

If you don't have the money for FFS, you probably shouldn't be planning it. Wait until you can pay for it, and see how the hormones treat you. You may not feel as strongly about FFS after estradiol softens you up for awhile.

Hugs, Devlyn

Hey Devlyn,
Thanks for the input!
All the things I want to change are mostly untouched my estradiol (adams apple, forhead/protruding brow, nose). The only factor that is altered is the jaw/chin, but honestly, people used to call me "the crimson chin" because of how strong my chin/jawline is. Men who told me "how lucky I am" and how "they wish they had my chin/jaw" so I know even with a little softening, some surgery won't help.
Also, my parents are signing a contract with me binding them to pay for tuition and expenses in full. I guess to be honest, I just want something to give to myself. I worked extremely hard to get where I am today and battling gender dysphoria and being closested on top of that has devestated my mental health. I guess I want this as a congratulations on graduating/getting accepted into dental school?

[Roll]

Really then it just comes down to weighing your priorities. If you believe that FFS is integral to your emotional well being in the immediate future, do what you gotta do to survive. If it isn't extremely severe and you can put it off until you finish saving enough (either pre or post graduation), or you can live with cheaper procedures to begin with (and even if it's not recommended with FFS, you could do always do future revisions once you have post graduation income) then do yourself a huge favor and don't go down the student loan rabbit hole.

[OpheliaDL]

Really then it just comes down to weighing your priorities. If you believe that FFS is integral to your emotional well being in the immediate future, do what you gotta do to survive. If it isn't extremely severe and you can put it off until you finish saving enough (either pre or post graduation), or you can live with cheaper procedures to begin with (and even if it's not recommended with FFS, you could do always do future revisions once you have post graduation income) then do yourself a huge favor and don't go down the student loan rabbit hole.

Hey Elli,

I was actually going to get adams apple, nose and chin/jaw done. My massive curly hair covers up my forhead, though to live optimally of course id love those done. Do you suggest to do just adams apple, nose and chin/jaw now then the other 2 procedures later, or all at once? I only wanted to do them all at once because I didnt want to go through the pain/recovery twice and It would be much cheaper to combine the surgeries, what do you think?

[Roll]

I'm not the person to ask about FFS procedures for sure, though I do know that it is almost always recommended to do it all at once if possible. But then, if it's not possible, it's not possible. Maybe someone with more FFS knowledge can offer some insight on what you can do to reduce costs, or what doesn't necessarily have to be grouped together to at least cut back costs initially (or conversely, what should absolutely be grouped together).

(Though putting aside the loan, I can almost guarantee trying to save up the money first is the best choice if you can wait that long. But then that's the crux of it.)

Do you know about how much the procedures you want cost?

Though one final thought I did have... If you are doing the stuff like chin and jaw and do want forehead or other procedures eventually, perhaps seeking alternative means to lessen dysphoria for the time being would be to your benefit even from a purely surgical results perspective. I can't remember if you said you were on HRT or how long you've been on it if you are, but something like it might tide you over, and the more time you give it the better anyway. That way when you do get surgery, maybe you will have the added benefit of a lucrative career and just be able to go all out. I am not one to say people should get every FFS procedure by any means, but if you are going to do be doing the big ones regardless being in a position to just do everything at once provides a much, much more coherent end result. Otherwise, say you do jaw and chin and nose now, then come back for brow and forehead. They will balance it around the face you have at the time, and the later procedures may force extra revisions to the rest to make it work together as a whole. But I may be totally wrong on all of this, it's just what I've pieced together reading other people talk about it.

[OpheliaDL]

I'm not the person to ask about FFS procedures for sure, though I do know that it is almost always recommended to do it all at once if possible. But then, if it's not possible, it's not possible. Maybe someone with more FFS knowledge can offer some insight on what you can do to reduce costs, or what doesn't necessarily have to be grouped together to at least cut back costs initially (or conversely, what should absolutely be grouped together).

(Though putting aside the loan, I can almost guarantee trying to save up the money first is the best choice if you can wait that long. But then that's the crux of it.)

Do you know about how much the procedures you want cost?

Though one final thought I did have... If you are doing the stuff like chin and jaw and do want forehead or other procedures eventually, perhaps seeking alternative means to lessen dysphoria for the time being would be to your benefit even from a purely surgical results perspective. I can't remember if you said you were on HRT or how long you've been on it if you are, but something like it might tide you over, and the more time you give it the better anyway. That way when you do get surgery, maybe you will have the added benefit of a lucrative career and just be able to go all out. I am not one to say people should get every FFS procedure by any means, but if you are going to do be doing the big ones regardless being in a position to just do everything at once provides a much, much more coherent end result. Otherwise, say you do jaw and chin and nose now, then come back for brow and forehead. They will balance it around the face you have at the time, and the later procedures may force extra revisions to the rest to make it work together as a whole. But I may be totally wrong on all of this, it's just what I've pieced together reading other people talk about it.

I've done most that I can to alleviate my dysphoria, I've been on hormones about a month but I am realistic, I know that hormones wont completely change my face, especially my uncomfortable areas. 4 years of university with this dysphoria has destroyed my mental health and I dont know if I can go another 4 years with it to be honest, hence my eagerness to just get it done and be happy. Its so bad to the point where, for instance, I do let ppl look at my side bc of how my nose profile looks. I've been discriminated against because of my masculine features and I dont want that anymore when I have to deal with patients, ya feel?

[Kendra]

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[Janes Groove]

Also, Jane, are you insinuating I'm not a real student? Only a select few students have the opportunity to attend dental school, with acceptance rates of only 10%. Being a person of colour and a closeted transwoman has also not made this easy for me, yet I still managed to push through, was in the top 15% of my program for that year and got into dental school. So please, don't tell me that I'm not a real student.

I'm not insinuating anything. I'm saying outright that what you are proposing to do is wrong.  Justify it any way you want.  But it is abuse of a Government program meant to help working class kids get an education so they don't have to live crappy lives.  As a taxpayer I resent paying money for your plastic surgery when you represent that you need it to get an education and then go turn around and spend it on optional plastic surgery.  It is intended for students to go to college and improve the lives of themselves, their families and their communities.  Plastic surgery is not a necessary expense to getting your education.  What you're suggesting is probably illegal as well.

[Roll]

I get what you are saying Jane, but I'm not sure Ophelia's intent is in anyway to defraud with loans, but to use them as a means to give her some breathing room with other funds(which would have gone to tuition and instead would go to FFS). Is it a bit of a shell game? Maybe, but then what isn't with money? Does that go against the spirit of the loans? Again, maybe, but I would wager is pretty much standard practice. Maybe not for FFS, but considering I know of actual examples where people use it to give them leeway to get video game consoles or top of the line phones, I'd say alleviation of dysphoria is a far worthier cause than most.

Think about it like this... (Numbers meaningless and not meant to represent quality or realistic prices, just for easy reference.) Someone has 20k saved up and needs a new car, but that money is earmarked for upcoming tuition. If they chose to spend that money on the car and took out a loan to cover tuition, would you feel the same way? Because that exact scenario is exceedingly common practice, and for a good reason as even people who are full time students have other expenses outside the scope of education. I have been paying my own tuition, but I have countless other bills and living expenses, some certainly transition related even if not plastic surgery. For instance, I have to pay out of pocket for certain medical expenses. If I found myself short between tuition and, say, therapy, would you tell me to save the 150$ from therapy instead of taking out a student loan, because it would be fraud? (Since the money was there, just going somewhere else.) I can't imagine you would. While FFS might not seem like a worthwhile expense to you or myself, and I do genuinely believe Ophelia would benefit from waiting for a laundry list of reasons, if she does deem it of vital import to her well being, we should trust her on that and not treat it as though it is the same as the aforementioned people using the system for entertainment purposes.

Again, I just want to reiterate, I 100% understand what you are saying. The stories about people doing stuff like selling food stamps for iPhones or using disability to buy nothing but beer and cigarettes... those are terrible things that abuse the system and truly disgust me, particularly since I have had to avail myself of the graces of SS disability just to survive over the years and I know how important these things are. But that is really not the same as what Ophelia is considering here.