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Do I really need to use Fincar? (Finasteride)

Started by Case39, January 16, 2018, 12:51:44 AM

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Case39

My one transgender friend told me she has done research on Fincar and says that I'm wasting my money on buying it. She says that it is only used to prevent male pattern baldness and that if you are already using estrogen pills that you don't need to worry about getting male pattern baldness.

On the other hand, my endocrinologist told me he is giving it to me because the Finasteride will target a different kind of testosterone than the spiractin, acting then as a blocker for a different kind of testosterone than spiractin.

I have tried to google both these claims but I haven't really found out anything.

But if Finasteride doesn't do anything for me I'd like to stop paying for it because it's actually the most expensive from all the things I buy.

Can anyone please shed some light on this issue?
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tgirlamg

Hi Case and welcome to the forum...

When I began HRT...I was horribly allergic to Spiro and my Doctor prescribed Finasteride as my blocker before I had GRS... my T levels were very well suppressed.

A 😀
"To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment" ... Ralph Waldo Emerson 🌸

"The individual has always had to struggle from being overwhelmed by the tribe... But, no price is too high for the privilege of owning yourself" ... Rudyard Kipling 🌸

Let go of the things that no longer serve you... Let go of the pretense of the false persona, it is not you... Let go of the armor that you have worn for a lifetime, to serve the expectations of others and, to protect the woman inside... She needs protection no longer.... She is tired of hiding and more courageous than you know... Let her prove that to you....Let her step out of the dark and feel the light upon her face.... amg🌸

Ashley's Corner: https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,247549.0.html 🌻
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Kendra

I've never seen a certificate on anyone's wall from the University of Google.  While it is really neat to be able to quickly look things up I don't think of that as a substitute for a decade of medical school, and medical residency, and then a career focused on a topic.  If I was faced with this (someone outside the medical field telling me what my prescription is for) I wouldn't hesitate to continue following the endocrinologist's advice. 

If cost is an issue I'd bring it up directly with the endo.  It's possible they might offer an alternative, or they might say what you're already prescribed is the best fit based on their assessment of your goals and medical details. 
Assigned male at birth 1963.  Decided I wanted to be a girl in 1971.  Laser 2014-16, electrolysis 2015-17, HRT 7/2017, GCS 1/2018, VFS 3/2018, FFS 5/2018, Labiaplasty & BA 7/2018. 
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Asakawa

Finasteride blocks a more potent form of Testosterone called DHT Dihydrotestosterone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrotestosterone

It is many, MANY, more times more potent than Testosterone at the AR (Androgen Receptor):

QuoteDHT is a potent agonist of the AR, and is in fact the most potent known endogenous ligand of the receptor. It has an affinity (Kd) of 0.25 to 0.5 nM for the human AR, which is about 2- to 3-fold higher than that of testosterone (Kd = 0.4 to 1.0 nM)[44] and 15–30 times higher than that of adrenal androgens.[45] In addition, the dissociation rate of DHT from the AR is 5-fold slower than that of testosterone.[46] The EC50 of DHT for activation of the AR is 0.13 nM, which is about 5-fold stronger than that of testosterone (EC50 = 0.66 nM).[47] In bioassays, DHT has been found to be 2.5- to 10-fold more potent than testosterone.[44]

The terminal half-life of DHT in the body (53 minutes) is longer than that of testosterone (34 minutes), and this may account for some of the difference in their potency.[48] A study of transdermal DHT and testosterone treatment reported terminal half-lives of 2.83 hours and 1.29 hours, respectively.[49]

Unlike other androgens such as testosterone, DHT cannot be converted by the enzyme aromatase into an estrogen like estradiol. Therefore, it is frequently used in research settings to distinguish between the effects of testosterone caused by binding to the AR and those caused by testosterone's conversion to estradiol and subsequent binding to and activation of ERs.[50] Although DHT cannot be aromatized, it is still transformed into metabolites with significant ER affinity and activity.[16] These are 3α-androstanediol and 3β-androstanediol, which are predominant agonists of the ERβ.[16]

A while back I looked into FTM forms and I have read (limitedly) that it is used to gain the more male favorable traits such as thicker beard hair, male pattern baldness/thinning of the hair, and thicker/darker/more body hair. Admittedly I only looked into FTM forums limitedly.

DHT is usually associated with those changes I mentioned. Also, DHT cannot be aromatized into E while T can be changed into E via aromatase. So, if you have T some of that will turned naturally into E while any DHT you have will remain there to act on your cells.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase

Is is true that once you are placed on HRT your T will decline and so will other levels of Androgens, but you will still have some in your lood circulating and interacting with your cells. How much? It depends. You have to do a blood check to find out, plus find out just how much is free to interact with your cells and not binded to SHBG.

Another thing is that exogenous use of Estrogen via injection or other methods will naturally lower your T levels due to it's effect on the  hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis. This means that ultimately with the use of Estrogen by itself your T levels will fall. Do you really need to take spironolactone? I don't think so personally if you are taking E as injectable or enough as transdermal. Do you really need to tax your kidneys? Again, by how much it depends on your body and how it reacts. Anyway, in the end some T is ideal. Women have some T naturally in their body something like 100ng/dl max and normally around 80ng/dl. SO in a way you should want some T in your blood.

That is when Fina comes in to block the more potent DHT.

However, Finasteride only blocks 2 forms of DHT and lasts 5-6 hours in your blood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finasteride

This is in contrast with Dutasteride which blocks all three forms of DHT and has a half life of 4-5 weeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutasteride

QuoteIt is a competitive, mechanism-based (irreversible) inhibitor of all three isoforms of 5α-reductase, types I, II, and III (IC50 values are 3.9 µM for type I and 1.8 µM for type II).[1][12][36][37] This is in contrast to finasteride, which is similarly an irreversible inhibitor of 5α-reductase[37][38] but only inhibits the type II and III isoenzymes.[12] As a result of this difference, dutasteride is able to achieve a reduction in circulating DHT levels of up to 98%, whereas finasteride is able to achieve a reduction of only 65 to 70%.[13][2][35][39]

So when it comes down to your money and how much you are getting out of it Dutasteride is likely a better option over Finasteride.

Should you block DHT? I personally think so. Is it worth the money? If you want to stop the masculinazing effects of DHT I would think so.

-edit-

You said your friend mentioned estrogen pills. Are you on E pills or injectable or transdermal E? If you are on pills then spirolactone will likely be needed as pills just tend to be less effective at feminization than transdermal, injectable, or the really nice and new approach of using Estrogen Pellets under the skin ( I tried those and they were amazing, but expensive). Pills do a double pass on your liver if you ingest them.

Your friend might say it is all quack talk, but you really have to do your blood work to check how much T and DHT you have. More than likely you do have some of both, but some T is still beings changed to E while DHT cannot be changed via aromatase. Id prefer to have T over DHT.
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KayXo

I personally wouldn't want to use either finasteride/dutasteride because of the effect it might have on neurosteroid production (i.e. allopregnanolone), resulting in potentially depressive/anxious mood. To each their own though. I ain't the expert.  ;)

Just FYI, spironolactone blocks androgens, including DHT and by lowering T (similar to estrogen), also lowers DHT.

I am post-op and felt I needed to add some T. I don't really put that much importance on blood levels because really we don't know what is going inside the cells and how that compares to ciswomen whose other levels of androgens (i.e. DHEA, androstenedione) might be far higher than ours and contribute to some of the T that is produced inside cells. I just go by how I feel and how my body is responding. My doctor is fine with that but still likes to check blood levels from time to time. Just FYI, again, depending on the lab and study, total T levels in women range anywhere from 8-120 ng/dl with 30-50 being where it seems to be usually at, before women hit menopause.

Quote from: Asakawa on January 16, 2018, 05:08:45 PMSo when it comes down to your money and how much you are getting out of it Dutasteride is likely a better option over Finasteride.

Interestingly enough, many years ago, I came across a study that showed that lower doses of finasteride appeared to be practically as effective at lowering DHT levels in scalp tissue and blood as higher doses so that could be something to bring to the doctor's attention in order to perhaps cut down on the losses and make it more worthwhile. :) If anyone is interested, I can PM you the link and you can share this with your doctor.

QuoteShould you block DHT? I personally think so. Is it worth the money? If you want to stop the masculinazing effects of DHT I would think so.

I share your viewpoint only to a certain extent. Post-op, I feel like much of the desired effects that I get from T such as increased muscle mass, thicker skin, softer hair/skin, improved energy/mood is in large part due to the effect of DHT so I personally wouldn't want to mess that up with finasteride/dutasteride. My situation is somewhat different though, now being post-op.

QuoteIf you are on pills then spirolactone will likely be needed as pills just tend to be less effective at feminization than transdermal, injectable, or the really nice and new approach of using Estrogen Pellets under the skin

I personally, post-op, had much better results (i.e. breast growth) on oral estrogen compared to transdermal or injectable despite levels being far higher on the latter.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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rmaddy

KayXo,

I have no quibble with your second post, in which you claim no particular expertise, but the one right above it seems to be a recommendation to use finasteride/dutasteride based on a completely non-clinical (i.e. not based on patient treatment/outcomes) study.  While I acknowledge your matchless ability to google, I'm not sure what basis you have for making any recommendation beyond "talk to your doctor about it."  Nothing you posted is actual evidence for efficacy in transgender patients surpassing or even equaling results of more conventional therapies.

Some doctors prescribe finasteride to transwomen, but typically only in cases where it has some degree demonstrable efficacy (i.e treatment of male pattern baldness), not because it has some theoretical mechanistic advantage over spironolactone. 

Renae
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Asakawa

The main use for Spironolactone is as a Potassium-sparing diuretic. It does have the ability to work as an androgen blocker, but this is a secondary effect. The question I threw out was if someone really needed to take SPironolactone while on hrt (estrogen and/or progesterone + maybe testosterone administration as some transgender girls do get T from their doctors).

To not make things too complex:

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/hypopit/lhfsh.html

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/basics/control.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_feedback

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Follicle-stimulating_hormone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luteinizing_hormone

Basically it all comes down to the negative feedback loop that controls hormone production in the human body.

From Wikipedia:

QuoteFor hormone secretion regulated by the negative feedback loop: when gland X releases hormone X, this stimulates target cells to release hormone Y. When there is an excess of hormone Y, gland X "senses" this and inhibits its release of hormone X. As shown in the figure, most endocrine hormones are controlled by a physiologic negative feedback inhibition loop, such as the glucocorticoids secreted by the adrenal cortex. The hypothalamus secretes corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH), which directs the anterior pituitary gland to secrete adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH). In turn, ACTH directs the adrenal cortex to secrete glucocorticoids, such as cortisol. Glucocorticoids not only perform their respective functions throughout the body but also negatively affect the release of further stimulating secretions of both the hypothalamus and the pituitary gland, effectively reducing the output of glucocorticoids once a sufficient amount has been released.[42]

When you administer exogenous hormones such as Estrogen (Including all different variants of Estrogen) Testosterone (Same), and Progesterone (This one too). You signal your body to shut down it's natural production of steroids.

Quotehttp://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/hypopit/lhfsh.html

Control of Gonadotropin Secretion
The principle regulator of LH and FSH secretion is gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH, also known as LH-releasing hormone). GnRH is a ten amino acid peptide that is synthesized and secreted from hypothalamic neurons and binds to receptors on gonadotrophs.


As depicted in the figure to the right, GnRH stimultes secretion of LH, which in turn stimulates gonadal secretion of the sex steroids testosterone, estrogen and progesterone. In a classical negative feedback loop, sex steroids inhibit secretion of GnRH and also appear to have direct negative effects on gonadotrophs.

This regulatory loop leads to pulsatile secretion of LH and, to a much lesser extent, FSH. The number of pulses of GnRH and LH varies from a few per day to one or more per hour. In females, pulse frequency is clearly related to stage of the cycle.

Numerous hormones influence GnRH secretion, and positive and negative control over GnRH and gonadotropin secretion is actually considerably more complex than depicted in the figure. For example, the gonads secrete at least two additional hormones - inhibin and activin - which selectively inhibit and activate FSH secretion from the pituitary.

In the body building world when body builders take T they shut down their natural production of steroids in their bodies. Once they come off the testosterone they are left with shrink testis (This is due to the lack of stimulation from the system mentioned above) and their production of steroids is reduced.

Once they come off the injectable T the feedback loop restarts and signals the body to produce LH and FSH which in turn stimulate the testis, but since they have been out for a while (They do steroid cycles for months at times) their reduced ability to produce hormone is minimal.

What I am trying to say, with out going further on the subject, is that your hormones will shut down once you administer exogenous steroids and estrogen is a very potent inhibitor of the feedback loop in males. It doesn't take a lot of E to shut the production down.

So the question was do you really need to take spironolactone? It's main use is as a diuretic, do you really need to tax your kidneys because it will make you shed water? Do you really want to use it long term when the mentioned mechanism will shut down your natural testosterone production just from exogenous steroid administration? It will knock down your T levels. To how much? it varies! You'd have to do blood work to really find out. Some T should be welcomed because women do have some T naturally in their bodies.

I spoke of Dutasteride because dutas blocks all three forms of DHT (linked to in my other posts). It's primary use is to block out DHT. DHT cannot be aromatized into E while T can still be aromatized into E. DHT is far more potent than T and has been linked to male pattern baldness. It isn't a water pill it's an androgen blocker with it's primary purpose being to do that. Dutas also lasts longer in the blood than finasteride.

Yes check with your doctor always.

My opinion? I wish I had never been placed on spironolactone. It taxed my kidneys and I don't even want to think what kind of long term use issues it could cause however slim. I was using a drug which it's primary purpose is to make you shed water. You then have to watch out your potassium intake (not good). If I had known that my T levels would have been suppressed naturally just by hormone administration I would have never taken Spironolactone.

So like I said you have to speak with your doctor. Show him the articles. Do more research into the feedback loop and how it works. Read the articles I linked and more.

As I mentioned I just spoke of Dutasteride because it blocks all three types of DHT. Finasteride only blocks two types so you are still subject to some floating DHT to act on your cells. DHT is different from T. If some form of DHT is still in your system it will bind to your cells. Once it does your genes will express.
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KayXo

Quote from: rmaddy on January 17, 2018, 05:31:30 PM
KayXo,

I have no quibble with your second post, in which you claim no particular expertise, but the one right above it seems to be a recommendation to use finasteride/dutasteride based on a completely non-clinical (i.e. not based on patient treatment/outcomes) study.  While I acknowledge your matchless ability to google, I'm not sure what basis you have for making any recommendation beyond "talk to your doctor about it."  Nothing you posted is actual evidence for efficacy in transgender patients surpassing or even equaling results of more conventional therapies.

Some doctors prescribe finasteride to transwomen, but typically only in cases where it has some degree demonstrable efficacy (i.e treatment of male pattern baldness), not because it has some theoretical mechanistic advantage over spironolactone. 

Renae

I don't quite see where I recommended anything. All I was doing was sharing what I know and my opinions on the matter. I clearly state at the bottom of each of my posts that I am not a medical doctor. I actually even mentioned my personal *dislike* for finasteride/dutasteride but again, that is not a recommendation.

Renae, I sincerely apologize for giving you the impression that I did anything but share my non-expert opinions/findings on the matter. :)

P.S.: that post was actually moderated so had to be approved before being posted. Hence, it was deemed appropriate and in accordance with the rules of this forum.

I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Asakawa

Hi kayxo,

I think I recall seeing a similar study on finasteride on the level of effectiveness based on dosage. I just prefer (my personal opinion) Dutasteride, but really if anyone considers anything they should do their own research and present it to their doctor so they can do what is best for them. Spironolactone blocks the AR so it would stop the effects of testosterone, but wouldn't reduce the conversion of T to DHT and T in whatever amounts  would still be floating in the blood. I'm not a doctor, but that sort of thought makes me a little squirmy inside. I think I already shared too much and I"m sorry if I am coming off too direct :(. I see your concerns with the neouro steroids you mentioned and that is a concern that I read about. That is certainly something to watch out for 100%. I guess it is a trade off? Spiro places an extra job on your kidneys while dutas might, or might not, depending on how you respond to it place a strain on your emotional well being. :( Something to talk to your doctor really and see what is right for you. I was on Dutas for a little while and it didn't affect me. I was also on Spironolactone, but spiro did affect me in that I had to watch out for potassium foods and such, and when I was gradually taken off Spiro I swelled up like a ballon with water retention.... Thankfully my body re-balanced itself.  I wish I had never taken it and also cyproterone acetate and depo provera.

anyway sorry for speaking too much about it. I might have deviated from the actual subject, sorry.
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