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Non-Operative TS

Started by kalt, December 20, 2007, 03:29:18 PM

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cindybc

Hi Claire, welcome to Susan's I admire people like you who refuse to say no. I am 7 years full time and 4 years a post-op. I would love to share some more with you later. My Soul Mate and I are heading out the door right now but will be back later.

Have a wonderful day

Cindy   
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joannatsf

Thank you for the welcome, Keira!  I'm glad to have found this spot.  It looks like your friend John is doing well.  With some luck I'll have a succesful outcome too.  I've been on the list for 5 years now.  The first 2 were a struggle with frequent hospital visits and a few scary moments.  Then a new med came out that changed my life.  My MELD declined and now is stable at 14.  My doctor says I could stay this way for a long time.  He told me that I shouldn't put my life on hold waiting for a liver and I took his advice.  With a new grasp of my own mortality I decided to make my time count. 

I have wanted to transition for years but put it off thinking now's not the time.  I finally realized that now is the time!  Transition came easily for me.  My family and friends have been accepting and I've started a new career in social work.  Life is good right now and I'm enjoying it as best I can!
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Ms Bev

Quote from: Tink on December 22, 2007, 01:46:52 PM
........ If you can't have surgery for medical or financial reasons, then yes, you are a non-op transsexual (some will prefer the term pre-op though but whatever..).  Nevertheless, a transsexual will never choose to have *that thing* enlarged instead of having it removed.
tink :icon_chick:


Yepperrs, I can't think of any transsexuals that would want to do anything with the 'thing' except have it remanufactured into a female organ, provided they had the resources, etc
1.) If you're skating on thin ice, you might as well dance. 
Bev
2.) The more I talk to my married friends, the more I
     appreciate  having a wife.
Marcy
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NicholeW.

Quote from: Tink on December 23, 2007, 02:05:16 AM
... a transsexual; is someone who is ALREADY one gender , but has the body of the other.  We DESIRE TO LIVE AND BE ACCEPTED AS MEMBERS OF THE MENTAL GENDER.  This is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make our BODIES (NOT OUR GENDER) congruent as possible with our true gender (MENTAL gender) through hormones and surgery. 

tink :icon_chick:

Now THAT, sounds like fact, to me anyhow.

Nichole

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kalt

Quote from: Claire de Lune on December 23, 2007, 04:05:18 PM
I am a non-op male to female transsexual.  I have a medical condition that precludes any surgery other than a liver transplant.  It would be very dangerous.  I have been medically stable for several years now and when I began transition I knew that GRS may not be in my stars.  Three months into transition my hepatologist confirmed my fears.  I have been able to undergo hormone therapy and it has been very effective for me.  I'm passable and I live my life full time as a woman.  I have a good career.  I'm respected by my colleagues and clients.  I've changed my name and gender legally and despite not having surgery I'm legally a woman and my birth certificate says so.  I've learned to live with many limitations and this is just another one of them.

I've never hated my body, well, maybe when I'm overweight.  The important parts of transition for me are in my heart and in my head.  Very few people see me without clothes and only one doesn't have an MD following their name.  My journey has been spiritual and I've chosen my path despite the obstacles in my way.  You gotta work with what ya got  ;)

BTW Irony of ironies, my insurance covers GRS and other surgeries to a lifetime benefit of $75,000

Do you really think that you can change the nature of what you are merely by wishing it? - LK Hamilton
Hrrm, gimme your insurance giver and policy, ima go bug em till they cover me.
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Natasha

It's a valid medical term; yet, let's not confuse non-operative transsexuals with male prostitutes or fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s who only want a female appearance (from the belly button up) in order to satisfy a sexual urge or get "customers".
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kalt

Quote from: Natasha on December 28, 2007, 08:19:44 PM
It's a valid medical term; yet, let's not confuse non-operative transsexuals with male prostitutes or fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s who only want a female appearance (from the belly button up) in order to satisfy a sexual urge or get "customers".
Of course not.  It's something genuine for many of us.  It's real community out there that needs to be accepted by more than a few perverts.
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joannatsf

Quote from: Natasha on December 28, 2007, 08:19:44 PM
It's a valid medical term; yet, let's not confuse non-operative transsexuals with male prostitutes or fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s who only want a female appearance (from the belly button up) in order to satisfy a sexual urge or get "customers".

I take an inclusive view of the transgender community.  Professor and attorney Jillian Todd Weiss has been a major influence on my thoughts so I'd like to share this excerpt from an essay she posted titled Trans Studies at http://phobos.ramapo.edu/~jweiss/transstudies.htm#three .  I hope you find it as useful as I have.

Transsexuals vs. Crossdressers. I often hear people trying to explain "transgender" by confidently reciting a list. "For example," they will say, "there are transsexuals who have sex change surgery and live full-time as the opposite sex, which is different from crossdressers, who are male heterosexuals who like to relax by putting on female clothing in privacy." This statement is fraught with problems, but I would like to address the most dangerous one: the idea that transsexuals and crossdressers are different in some important way. I recognize, of course, that the two are distinct, but I dispute the importance of that distinction. It is a distinction without a difference.

Transsexuals wish to be and consider themselves to be the opposite sex. Crossdressers do not. That is the sole distinction. It is a matter of intent only, and not action or behavior. Because of this, one cannot tell by looking who is a transsexual and who is a cross-dresser. On the one hand, some transsexuals have never worn clothing of the opposite sex; and some have not had surgery and never will. Yet they validly declare themselves transsexuals. On the other hand, some crossdressers have taken medical intervention to change their bodies; some wear clothing of the opposite sex all or most of the time and pass undetectably as members of the opposite sex, though they do not consider themselves members of the opposite sex. The only difference is the label that a person chooses to take. There is no "real" difference between the two, except as a self-identification. A physician cannot distinguish between a crossdresser and a transsexual by physical examination (though that doesn't stop them from trying).

There is a social difference, however. Transsexuals are given more credence in society because "transsexualism" is seen as a "medical condition", a gender "identity", whereas "crossdressing" is seen as an extreme eccentricity, a gender "expression". There is no basis, however, for this notion other than fiat. These are both identities and expressions, and there is nothing that distinguishes them as concepts. The attempt to limit "gender identity" to one's identification as male or female reprivileges anatomy as a hierarchical structure. The attempt to use surgery as a dividing line does the same. It makes no sense to spend three decades arguing that "anatomy is not destiny", only to begin arguing that "identity is destiny" or some such thing.

The plain fact is that modern society is willing to accept transgenders as long as they reenact gendered norms, in reverse, challenging nothing, and to the extent they "pass." Who is really being protected by this construction of "gender identity"?
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NicholeW.

Hi Claire,

I'm so sorry for your terrible choice that you MUST make between physical well-being and congruence.

Professor Weiss makes good points, Claire. We definitely do tend to define people in large groupings rather than by individuals. And I have to agree with this:
Quote It makes no sense to spend three decades arguing that "anatomy is not destiny", only to begin arguing that "identity is destiny" or some such thing.

Our tendency to divide and distinguish between types is consistently problematic. We seldom account for the fact that people, in general, bleed blood that can be used in their veins by others. That we sweat, laugh, cry and hope very much alike, except for the desires we each carry within ourselves.

And I think one of the 'fears' that many post-ops and soon-to-be post-ops carry is that somehow another's inability or lack of desire for the same goals will manage to 'prejudice' all the nons out there against the entire group. I spoz we tend to neglect that if 'they' know, they are likely enough to have the prejudice anyway.

Gender is one of those things that had we not been given the genetics we have been given we would seldom if ever question, let alone think about. I believe most people never do. They simply believe without ever testing their beliefs to any degree until they face transsexuality or ->-bleeped-<- or androgynism. (Forgive the categorizations.) Most people 'feel in themselves' that there are only two and that physical form defines both.

In point of fact, I tend to 'believe' that myself, although knowing from deep experience that there is a complication, a large one, in that regard. Yet, dislike it as I do within myself, I still tend to distinguish my TSism from TGism (CDs, TVs, etc) not so much as a difference in kind, but as a difference in internal make-up. (Perhaps another difference without a difference.)

There seem to be no easy answers and that we can discuss this at all seems hopeful to me. I see differences, but also know that within those differences there are loving and lovable human beings that are incalculably 'worthy.'

Within us all there seems to be a biological imperative to perceive 'us' and 'them.' What were the major differences in so-called Neanderthals and so-called Cro-magnons? There were very few, much having to do with hair, shape, physical strength and ability to make sound with a voice. Yet, there appears to have been a wholesale slaughter of the former by the latter due to greater technology and greater capacity to reproduce. And, I imagine, a wholesale 'fear of the other.'

I often think this is a biological thing within 'apes.'

I would LIKE to think that we are all "being protected by the construction of 'gender identity.'" But I do get the point in that piece of essay. Thanks for posting it. If it gives us cause to simply consider, whether or not we come to that same conclusion, it is worth the while it took to post it.

Hugs,

Nichole
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Kate

Quote from: Claire de Lune on December 29, 2007, 09:59:16 AM
Transsexuals wish to be and consider themselves to be the opposite sex. Crossdressers do not. That is the sole distinction. It is a matter of intent only, and not action or behavior.

Isn't that a bit like equating guys who play paintball on weekends pretending to be warriors for fun and relaxation... with professional soldiers who put their lives on the line every second of every day to do what they do?

~Kate~
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cindybc

Hi Kate, I love your distinction. When Wing Walker and I went to see our interviewer for a job volunteering working with Trans people he coined our transitional years as "The walk of heroes."

Cindy
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Natasha

#31
these days everyone that cross-dresses on weekends calls themselves ts ::)

as far as 'outsiders' are concerned, a ->-bleeped-<-, a cross-dresser, an androgyne, and a transsexual woman are all just different words for a 'man in a dress'.

The transgender community uses this to their advantage; in the last few years, there has been an increase (small, but still significant) in the general understanding and acceptance of transsexualism; we've made advances socially, legally and medically, and the transgender activists want some of that acceptance for themselves which is why there is this subtle insistence that transsexual people come under the "transgender umbrella", and therefore society can't deny "other transgender" people the rights and acceptance that it's beginning to offer to transsexual people.  all nonsense, of course, but very plausible, and it carries with it a dangerous barb for us.

lumping transsexual people into the transgender camp means that we are viewed as having a psychological problem, and are told to either get over it, or "see a shrink" to have it fixed. as a result, the proper medical treatment of hormones and surgery can become more difficult, if not in some cases impossible to obtain. jobs can be denied. the denial of the right of marriage in some states and countries (due to the belief that "assigned with one sex at birth, means you are always that sex", results in the refusal to change birth certificates) is also reinforced. this creates the possibility of revoking this right in other states and countries, where transsexual people are considered to be transgender, since transgender people are almost never considered by the general public to be any sex other than the one they were assigned to at birth.

being considered transgender does me, a woman born transsexual, more harm than good. why? because it creates the probability that i will be viewed as "born a man, always a man" even though i was never a man. i was born transsexual; i've had treatment for that; i'm anatomically female.

furthermore, it doesn't matter that i've had the corrective surgery, or that i've spent years in therapy, and thousands on hormones, hair removal, other medical treatments and speech therapy; because as a "transgender" individual one's sex never changes from the one you're assigned at birth. it also creates the nasty unspoken subtext of "why can't you just live with what you have, and be happy with it like a cross-dresser, ->-bleeped-<-, she-male, drag queen or other does?"  fyi i'm a woman who was born transsexual. and i'm not "transgender".
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Keira


I think there's two camps here.

GID at various level (some start as crossdressers).
  - Feeling of not fitting in birth sex at various level

In the first case, if we take as a basis that there is a biological imperative here
(which still remains to be prooven without a doubt but many clues hint in that direction)
Then its not a lifestyle decision, its part of who we are as human beings and cannot change it.
- In the GID camp, there are two main "factions" with their own continuum.
   - Somatic (closer to Body image dysphoria, no social aspect at all)
   - Social dysphoria
   - And a combination of both at various level or somatic and social dysphoria.

Most people with GID have social and somatic dysphoria at various levels.

   - A classic TS would have extreme somatic and social dysphoria
      - Living as a non-op would be unbearable no matter the cost.
   - A Non Op would generally have a much stronger level of social dysphoria than somatic dysphoria
      - Depending on how much the somatic component is strong, they could live for either a while
        as a non op, or in some case were the body component is small, forever.
           - when making decisions, humans weight factors against each other, if you're deathly
             afraid of operations and have a less than extreme somatic component for whatever
             reason, you could choose to go non-op.
           - The thing is that non-op have a GID at a level that afford them the option to have a choice.
   - Someone with mainly a somatic dysphoria, can actually live as a male or androgyne
     and have a female body.       
   - Someone with mainly a social dysphoria could live as women, without any body modification
     (if they can) and be satisfied with that (it is often possible for those in their early 20's with little beard to do so).


CD and she-male would do it mostly for reasoned conscious reasons with no biological imperatives.
     - Most she-males I know are in the sex industry, which I don't think is a coincidence.
     - That's why I place them here instead of with the non ops.


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Traverse

At this point I'm thinking I won't do it. Too much money. One day when they can put a real vagina on/in me I probably will, but not until then.


I like women. Women generally like my freakishly large clit. I have a good imagination. Tadaa!
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joannatsf

Thank you, Nicole.  I've learned to accept my limitations and move on.  Life presents us with challenges and like any other disability we must learn to accept and compensate for physical realities. 

I think that much of TS behaviour is defined by a desire to conform to the expectations of the medical community.  The SOC sets a standard for how a TS is supposed to look and feel and individuals conform to the rules of the gatekeepers.  If a person lives in compliance to a set of rules long enough they tend to internalise those beliefs adopt them as there own.  It's a form of institutionalisation.

People tend to put others into large large groups and sub-groups within.  The public groups all LGBTI people into the category of queer and then breaks us out into components and sub-sets to those.  We, TSs, do it ourselves.  Trying to change this system of belief would be extremely difficult and I believe not achievable in the short run.  I think it will be 2 or 3  generations before there is a general acceptance of gender fluidity.  My experience in transition in the work place was that I could be who I wanted but I had to be consistent in my gender presentation in regards to bathrooms, pronouns and presentation.  That was fine with me but had I been bi-gendered it would have been a problem. 

I have problems identifying with the entire spectrum contained under the TG umbrella.  A drag queen seems more like an actor than a person with gender identity issues.  I've met several of The Sister of Perpetual Indulgence out of costume and they have been large gay men who carry the gender switch no further than the dressing room door.  As such legal protections really aren't necessary for them.  If we are to attain ENDA and hate crime legislation on a national level I think it would be prudent to pursue it for transsexuals only in the beginning..  At this point the public and legislators would be more willing to accept people that make the change but remain faithful to the gender binary.  Other types of transgender people could be brought along as people become accustomed to greater gender variation.
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tekla

"If we are to attain ENDA and hate crime legislation on a national level I think it would be prudent to pursue it for transsexuals only in the beginning."

And yet you use Franklin's quote about hanging alone.  Which one is right?  Are we together, or apart.  Or is it like Animal Farm, where 'some animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others?'

In fact, I think a simple wording that covers simple presentation would be easier to pass then full TS rights, which often winds up with an attached argument about both marriage and money.  Sadly, if you really look at the victims of trans gender crime you will find that most of them DO NOT do not fit the strict standard you propose.  Do they count?  Do you think you should have a protection that you would deny to both Brandon Teena and Gwen Araujo?
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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NicholeW.

Quote from: Claire de Lune on December 31, 2007, 12:43:46 AM
If we are to attain ENDA and hate crime legislation on a national level I think it would be prudent to pursue it for transsexuals only in the beginning..  At this point the public and legislators would be more willing to accept people that make the change but remain faithful to the gender binary.  Other types of transgender people could be brought along as people become accustomed to greater gender variation.

Sorry, Claire. I appreciate the idea, but that quote is just too close to the justifications that Barney Frank and the HRC used to exclude all forms of Ts.

The idea that some of us need coverage and other 'can be brought along as people become accustomed to greater gender variations,' for me, is to say that some of us are more human than are others, at least for the present.

I cannot accept that formulation. Almost like we had said in 1964 that Civil Rights are good, but only for people like and lighter than Lena Horne right now. We can bring along darker folk as people become more accustomed to darker skin colors.

Believe me. I do not want men in the bathroom, changing rooms, etc with me, and my view of CDs and TVs is that they are men who dress sometimes as women for their own senses of well-being. But as a protected class, which is what ENDA was setting up, why do they deserve less protection if they are assaulted or slain for doing what they are doing? I just cannot support that.

Nichole
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joannatsf

You're taking me much more broadly than I intended.  I'm not in favor of leaving any anybody behind.  I'm suggesting that we have to clearly define just who is being protected.  The more clearly that is done the more the more politically palatable protective legislation will become.  In California we have all the protections provided in ENDA.  The original legislation contained protections only for LGBT folk but the courts extended it to include TGs as well.

Tekla, I didn't propose a strict standard of anything.  By transsexual I meant people that are living or seek to live their live in their true gender.  I believe both Gwen Araujo and Branden Teena would be included by that standard.
Quote
Believe me. I do not want men in the bathroom, changing rooms, etc with me, and my view of CDs and TVs is that they are men who dress sometimes as women for their own senses of well-being. But as a protected class, which is what ENDA was setting up, why do they deserve less protection if they are assaulted or slain for doing what they are doing? I just cannot support that.

ENDA had nothing to do with hate crimes, Nichole.  It is solely aimed at employment discrimination.  The hate crimes legislation which did provide sentencing enhancements went down to defeat in the Senate.  That was certainly a symbolic loss but I have my doubts about how concerned bigots are about sentencing enhancement when they are already committing a crime that may result in a death sentence.

The goal is to bring everyone along.  I just think it would be more easily done in increments than trying to shove the whole package down the straight worlds throat.

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tekla

Well you propose two standards, the first:"people that make the change but remain faithful to the gender binary."  I think would exclude Brandon and Gwen as neither were on HRT, neither were under the care of a doctor, neither were preparing for SRS. 

Second standard: "seek to live their live in their true gender".  I'm not even sure how you would begin to qualify that.

Third, and this is the kicker, the real incremental method is to A) get these laws passed on a local level, B) get them passed on a state level, then, and only then, C) get a national law.  There are two reasons for this.  First, and the most important, employment discrimination cases tend to be filed on a local level first, then drift up to the state level.  Such discrimination is hard - almost impossible - to prove, as most employers are not going to leave any sort of paper trail that would act as a 'smoking gun.'  You would need some form of corporate communication stating "don't hire ->-bleeped-<-s" or something to that effect.  Any employer, or their lawyers, will contend that the other person who was hired was "a better fit to our corporate culture" so some such nonsense, that though untrue, is again, almost impossible to prove. In a place like the SF Bay area where so many people apply for every job, many of whom are highly overqualified for them, its very hard for a person suing to meet the burden of proof that they were singled out for discrimination.  Moving it up to a federal level not only makes that harder (as the burden of proof is even higher), its much, much, much more expensive.  That's why most federal suits are done as class actions, the cost is too much for one person to carry, for as long as it would take - and the federal court system is very, very slow.  Moreover, it would be much easier to get a fair hearing from the SF DA, or Jerry Brown on the state level, then anyone in the Bush Department of Justice.

One of the reasons that so few people in the Bay Area got all upset about EDNA is that we have those laws in place on a local and state level, and thus, have far less need for a Federal law - nor is anyone in SF under any sort of delusion that the Bushies in the DoJ would be jumping for joy to start suing their favorite major corporations on behalf of gays and lesbians, much less ->-bleeped-<-s.  (And we have much bigger problems with Miss Nancy over the funding for the war and the non-impeachment stuff, then over the EDNA bill.)

The second reason for doing the local > state > national route is that by the time you get to a national level, you have had cases in lower courts that could be cited.  By that time you have the beginnings of a body of decisions that could be used to guide to fashion the federal decisions.

And, perhaps there is no discrimination in SF (I doubt it) but in the 15 years that the local law has been in place, there has not been a successful lawsuit.  As I said, its way hard to prove.

In the end, any standard on this that takes anything greater than presentation is going to be doomed.  More MtFs have SRS then FtMs at the current time - do we exclude them?  What about those who for medical reasons can not have either HRT or SRS?  And, many, many, many of our brother and sisters can not afford it - they (like so many Americans of all stripes) are living paycheck to paycheck, often only a check or two from being homeless, the cost of the entire run Shrink > Endo > HRT > Surgeon > SRS is far beyond their means.  Excluding the MtFs and the poor, and the sick, would make such legislation little more than a 'rich, healthy girls protection act." 



We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct-action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant 'Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."


FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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joannatsf

Quote from: tekla on January 01, 2008, 12:15:06 PM
Well you propose two standards, the first:"people that make the change but remain faithful to the gender binary."  I think would exclude Brandon and Gwen as neither were on HRT, neither were under the care of a doctor, neither were preparing for SRS. 

Why do you think that?  A person doesn't need to have surgical proceedures our hormones to be TS do they?  While California statuatory law prescribes "gender enhancing surgery" to obtain a legal gender change, judges can and do set it aside if circumstances warrant it.  Gwen Araujo was clearly very passable.  She was also 17 years old at the time of her murder.  "The four defendants in the murder of Gwen Araujo were sentenced to prison. Two of the men, were convicted of 2nd degree murder and sentenced to 15 years to life. The other two took plea bargains to voluntary manslaughter.  One of Brandon Teena's killers received the death penalty while the other got life i prison.

QuoteSecond standard: "seek to live their live in their true gender".  I'm not even sure how you would begin to qualify that.

Do we really want to make this a discussion on rules of evidence?

QuoteThird, and this is the kicker, the real incremental method is to A) get these laws passed on a local level, B) get them passed on a state level, then, and only then, C) get a national law.  There are two reasons for this.  First, and the most important, employment discrimination cases tend to be filed on a local level first, then drift up to the state level.  Such discrimination is hard - almost impossible - to prove, as most employers are not going to leave any sort of paper trail that would act as a 'smoking gun.'  You would need some form of corporate communication stating "don't hire ->-bleeped-<-s" or something to that effect.  Any employer, or their lawyers, will contend that the other person who was hired was "a better fit to our corporate culture" so some such nonsense, that though untrue, is again, almost impossible to prove. In a place like the SF Bay area where so many people apply for every job, many of whom are highly overqualified for them, its very hard for a person suing to meet the burden of proof that they were singled out for discrimination.

I agree with you about beginning at the local and state levels.  The reason to go for federal legislation is that some places will never accept LGBT people on their own.  Should we have different rights in South Carolina than we do in California?  You can't prevent people from being people.  If you have to choose between 2 equaly qualified applicants wouldn't you choose the peson you'd most like to work with?



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