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Need advice and experience with describing dysphoria

Started by JessicaHF, February 28, 2018, 12:09:02 PM

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JessicaHF

I have been struggling for quite a while with trying to describe why I need to transition to live as a woman. While taking to my wife and my therapist (separately), the question has come up about why I feel I need to change my body in order to feel complete. I've described the things that I enjoy (makeup, clothes, fashion, etc.), I've been able to describe the way I feel (like I'm trapped in a suit that is unbearably uncomfortable in all the wrong places), I've also been able to demonstrate that I feel more comfortable expressing myself as a woman (more graceful, more in-tune with other people's and my own feelings, more nurturing and compassionate). I know that when Im able to express myself as my true self I am happier, more relaxed, and I can think more clearly. But, I inevitably get asked "why do you need to change your body to do all of that?" And I go blank....

I explain again about being trapped in the ill-fitting suit, but other than that I've got nothing... there are a ton of feelings in my head and in my body, but I can't seem to find a way to put words to them.

I'm not necessarily looking for what I can tell my wife or therapist to appease them, I know that will come when I find a way to put words to the feelings inside. What I would like to know from everyone is:

How did you know that you couldn't just be more feminine or more masculine in your given body?

How did/do you describe the feelings that tell you that the only option is to change your physical gender?

I know deep inside that I am incredibly uncomfortable in my physical body, but I can't for the life of me describe the feeling or describe why.

I would love to hear how everyone describes that deep feeling that something drastically needs to change.

Hugs,

Jessica


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Deborah

I'm not sure that it can really be adequately described to someone who hasn't experienced it.  It's kind of like describing color to the blind or a symphony orchestra to the deaf.  The best I can come up with is encapsulated in this picture and with the analogy I wrote a few years ago.

I open my eyes and it's dark.  I'm in a box, dark, cramped, very small.  I feel around with my hands and its sealed.  There are no openings and there is no escape.  It's completely silent and as I begin to beat on the sides of the box the sound is muffled and I realize the box is buried underground and there is no escape.  I scream and nobody can hear, nobody can help.  Deep dark despair embraces me with its icy arms as I realize I  am trapped . . . alone . . . for eternity.



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Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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Tamika Olivia

Trying to describe dysphoria to the cis is nearly impossible. They have no frame of reference for it, no comparable lived experience. It's like trying to explain color to a person born blind. You can use scientific terms and metaphors, but you can never dig down to the qualia.

But the thing is, once you realize that there are no right words to explain it, you get to stop trying. You don't need their permission or understanding to transition. If they're actually on your side, that can support without understanding.

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Denise

A person who speaks publicly about G.D. uses the analogy of hunger.  You can do lots of things to reduce the pangs of hunger but only food can cure it.

When I had that discussion with my ex wife I asked her, "how often do you think about your gender?"

Her puzzled look said it all.  She didn't even understand the question.  "I'm just me. Sure, during sex or something I wonder what it's like for you but other than that, never.".

There analogy I like is trying to ask water to think what about being dry. Think about that.  It makes as much sense as asking a cis person to think about being the other gender.

But to better answer your question, I never had to describe it.  I told them what I was thinking during some events in my life.  I had three gender professionals all say "all of that is gender dysphoria."
1st Person out: 16-Oct-2015
Restarted Spironolactone 26-Aug-2016
Restarted Estradiol Valerate: 02-Nov-2016
Full time: 02-Mar-2017
Breast Augmentation (Schechter): 31-Oct-2017
FFS (Walton in Chicago): 25-Sep-2018
Vaginoplasty (Schechter): 13-Dec-2018









A haiku in honor of my grandmother who loved them.
The Voices are Gone
Living Life to the Fullest
I am just Denise
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Phoenix1742

This actually makes me think of a conversation I had with my brother the other day.

We were talking about my coming out as queer, and his take was "I get dressing up in women's clothes every so often, but why do you need to pick a different name, why do you need to pretend to be someone else?" To which my reply was "if my name was more gender neutral I wouldn't change it, but people look funny at a woman named Dave. And I'm not pending to be someone else, I'm finally *not* pretending to be someone I'm not."

To him, crossdressing for an event or a crazy party made sense, but he couldn't grasp that it wasn't just a question of wearing different clothes for fun or escapism. He couldn't grasp the anxiety I have when I can't be Sarah.

I tried to explain it as best I could, but I feel like he still didn't understand what I was trying to say.

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JessicaHF

Quote from: Tamika Olivia on February 28, 2018, 12:45:10 PM
Trying to describe dysphoria to the cis is nearly impossible. They have no frame of reference for it, no comparable lived experience. It's like trying to explain color to a person born blind. You can use scientific terms and metaphors, but you can never dig down to the qualia.

But the thing is, once you realize that there are no right words to explain it, you get to stop trying. You don't need their permission or understanding to transition. If they're actually on your side, that can support without understanding.

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Thank you for the reply Tamika.

I agree that unless someone has a common frame of reference the only way to explain anything is through analogy and metaphor, and there just doesn't seem to be anything that fits the depth and intensity of the feelings that I have. Like I said, the words just don't seem to exist that fit what I'm feeling.

I'm not really looking to get anyone's permission, I'm more trying to find a way to explain and describe it to myself. Everywhere I look, everything I read, every professional I talk to all says the same thing, the real me is a woman and there is no explanation, it just is! I'm just trying to find the unfindable I guess.

Thanks again!

Jessica

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Virginia

I was taught in a course on communication that facts are preferred to analogies, comparisons, judgments and value statements  because people do not share the same point of reference. An example: Rather than describing a person as "disgusting," it would be better to say "they pick their nose with their thumb."

The GD I experienced before starting hormones was a horrible horrible thing; total obsession with my gender to the point of being nearly impossible to think about anything else; an uncontrollable compulsion to express myself as a woman regardless of the consequences; a life sucking zombie-like funk that makes it barely possible to perform the basic functions of daily life.

During the six months before I was prescribed hormones:
-Weight fell from 173 to 146 pounds
-Two, maybe three hours of sleep a night
-Excruciating mental agony when addressed as "sir," even the thought of even being perceived as a guy
-Uncontrollable obsession with expressing myself as a woman to the point of taking a Herculean effort to think about or do absolutely anything else
-Shaved my body like a hairless cat
-Stopped biting my nails for the first time in 40 years
-Started growing out my lifelong short hair
-Pruned the caterpillars over my eyes into a shadow of their former Grouch Marx glory
-Started laser beard removal/electro
-Walking sitting, eating, pretty much doing everything like a girl
-Using my girl voice when I was presenting male to people I didn't know
-Wore eyeliner, lip gloss, bra and andro shoes to work every day. Andro womens tops or slacks to work every day. Tops AND slacks to work once a week and every evening and weekend.
And I was not only dysphoric about my maleness but also my femaleness.

Refusing to see how what I was doing was affecting my marriage and those around me, presenting as female in public once a week was the only thing that kept me going. I lived for the dream-like numbness, the precious hours of relief from the life-sucking malaise, the relief barely lasted until it was over. I was an addict waiting for my next fix. My wife and I were desperate for something, anything to give me peace or relief. It was a race between insanity and suicide, and I was running out of options.



~VA (pronounced Vee- Aye, the abbreviation for the State of Virginia where I live)
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Faith

They will never really grasp it without experiencing it. I've broached one scenario with two people that asked, they were both female.

First, I ask how often the think about being female rather than just being. That gets them thinking.
Then I ask, how do you think you'd feel waking up tomorrow with your breasts gone and a penis stuck on you.

The look on their face is enough to show it made an impact. I also know that despite that they will still never really understand ... and they don't need to.
I left the door open, only a few came through. such is my life.
Bluesky:@faithnd.bsky.social

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Sno

Oh hon.
Sadly I think it may be time for a new therapist - they are struggling and don't really, (want to), understand. This is normal for someone for whom, they have never asked that question of themselves.

As to an answer, I'm not sure there is one, but there is always a snarky retort of when my brain is congruent (aligned) with my body, it doesn't have to think to be able to move, act or respond - it is free. When it is free, I think more clearly, quite simply because I am not having to compensate for this misalignment. By not changing, the current level of psychological discomfort will continue at the present level, and that is contrary to the current therapeutic aim...

In other words, you're seeing your therapist to try to bring peace and an end to the relentless questioning and work to remember the role determined by your gender assigned at birth - you are supposed to be working towards treatments that bring about that peace, taking what interventions are needed.

At present you're trapped in an infinite loop trying to describe the indescribable to make someone comprehend, what is for them incomprehensible - this is why you need to think about making the change of therapist, at the moment they do not comprehend, and do not see a need to step outside of the status quo.

Big hugs, you can do this hon.


Rowan
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KathyLauren

I guess my therapists (and my wife!) have been more understanding: they don't really press the point.  It's like "I need breasts, I need SRS," and they say, "Then you should have them."

But the question has come up occasionally in therapy, so I had to think about it.  My dysphoria was mostly social, and involved my presentation.  Body dysphoria was secondary.  But it was there.

A large part of my body dysphoria actually relates to my social and presentation dysphoria.  I can't present convincingly as female unless my body falls within norms of female characteristics.  I don't need to be beautiful, but I do need people to see me as a woman.  Breasts were therefore necessary.  Feminizing my face was necessary.  Female-pattern hair was necessary.  And, to a certain extent, having no externally visible genitals was necessary, all for my presentation.

Some of those things could be accomplished without altering my body, using forms, wigs, tucking, etc., but too much of that makes it feel like role playing.  And role-playing is what I needed to get away from.  My social dysphoria was about the dissatisfaction of playing the role of a male.  I couldn't accept playing the role of a female.  I needed to be real as a woman.  HRT has given me much of what I needed there.

As long as I have the wrong genitals, my body feels wrong.  I long for the proper, smooth shape.  Not having it has social consequences for me.  I need to be gendered correctly, and having a bulge in the wrong place makes that less likely.  I have had no negative experiences, but I live in fear of someone seeing something they shouldn't through the crack in the stall door and making my life difficult. 

I have been a gym member in my previous life, and have been to public swimming pools.  Those activities are not a big part of my life, but I enjoyed them at the time and might like to do them again.  I cannot use a public locker room with the hardware I was born with, so those activities are out of the question.  I cannot relax on a beach without thinking about how I am going to cover up.

None of those things is a threat to my life.  I am a survivor, so if they told me I couldn't have the necessary treatment, I wouldn't go and do something silly.  But all those things do add up to a considerable weight on my mind.  They are obstacles to being fully myself.  I need to alter my body to fully be me.

Luckily, HRT has helped a lot.  My breasts, while just little As, are real, and I take pride in not using forms when out in public.  I am about being real, and they are.  My face looks plausibly feminine, aside from the regular pre-electrolysis stubble.  My hair is a goner, so I wear a wig.  Real hair would be preferable, but there are women with worse alopecia than me, so it doesn't bother me too much. 

I can tuck the boy parts to make myself look presentable when the clothing requires it, but that is uncomfortable.  And I hate seeing myself in the mirror after a shower.  The rest of my body looks not bad, but there are those bits that just shouldn't be there.  Just seeing them puts me back in that boy-space that I tried so hard to get out of.  I long to look in the mirror and see myself from the waist down, as well as above the waist.

So that's kind of long-winded and beats around the bush, but it is how I describe my body dysphoria.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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JessicaHF

Quote from: KathyLauren on February 28, 2018, 01:51:32 PM
I guess my therapists (and my wife!) have been more understanding: they don't really press the point.  It's like "I need breasts, I need SRS," and they say, "Then you should have them."

But the question has come up occasionally in therapy, so I had to think about it.  My dysphoria was mostly social, and involved my presentation.  Body dysphoria was secondary.  But it was there.

A large part of my body dysphoria actually relates to my social and presentation dysphoria.  I can't present convincingly as female unless my body falls within norms of female characteristics.  I don't need to be beautiful, but I do need people to see me as a woman.  Breasts were therefore necessary.  Feminizing my face was necessary.  Female-pattern hair was necessary.  And, to a certain extent, having no externally visible genitals was necessary, all for my presentation.

Some of those things could be accomplished without altering my body, using forms, wigs, tucking, etc., but too much of that makes it feel like role playing.  And role-playing is what I needed to get away from.  My social dysphoria was about the dissatisfaction of playing the role of a male.  I couldn't accept playing the role of a female.  I needed to be real as a woman.  HRT has given me much of what I needed there.

As long as I have the wrong genitals, my body feels wrong.  I long for the proper, smooth shape.  Not having it has social consequences for me.  I need to be gendered correctly, and having a bulge in the wrong place makes that less likely.  I have had no negative experiences, but I live in fear of someone seeing something they shouldn't through the crack in the stall door and making my life difficult. 

I have been a gym member in my previous life, and have been to public swimming pools.  Those activities are not a big part of my life, but I enjoyed them at the time and might like to do them again.  I cannot use a public locker room with the hardware I was born with, so those activities are out of the question.  I cannot relax on a beach without thinking about how I am going to cover up.

None of those things is a threat to my life.  I am a survivor, so if they told me I couldn't have the necessary treatment, I wouldn't go and do something silly.  But all those things do add up to a considerable weight on my mind.  They are obstacles to being fully myself.  I need to alter my body to fully be me.

Luckily, HRT has helped a lot.  My breasts, while just little As, are real, and I take pride in not using forms when out in public.  I am about being real, and they are.  My face looks plausibly feminine, aside from the regular pre-electrolysis stubble.  My hair is a goner, so I wear a wig.  Real hair would be preferable, but there are women with worse alopecia than me, so it doesn't bother me too much. 

I can tuck the boy parts to make myself look presentable when the clothing requires it, but that is uncomfortable.  And I hate seeing myself in the mirror after a shower.  The rest of my body looks not bad, but there are those bits that just shouldn't be there.  Just seeing them puts me back in that boy-space that I tried so hard to get out of.  I long to look in the mirror and see myself from the waist down, as well as above the waist.

So that's kind of long-winded and beats around the bush, but it is how I describe my body dysphoria.

Wow, Kathy! You just described exactly what I'm feeling! Thank you!

I've been trying to understand this feeling completely from a physical perspective. I've been trying to explain it to myself from a purely physical perspective. To some extent it is in the physical such as presentation, but the social gender dysphoria has also been a huge issue for me. I've been putting all the focus on the physical with the mindset that once I figured out the physical explanation that the social aspect would be corrected in the process.

I too cringe when someone refers to me as male, even when I'm in full male mode. I found myself getting angry the other day when the nurse at my doctors office kept calling me sir. I couldn't blame her, what she saw in front of her looked like a man. So I then proceeded to turn the anger in on myself for expecting anything different! Yeah, I've got issues!

I was able to keep the gender dysphoria at bay for 40 years to some extent and for some reason it's now so forceful I feel like I'm losing my mind!

Again, thank you for your response and thank you for helping me see this from an different perspective.

Hugs, Jessica


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JessicaHF

Quote from: Deborah on February 28, 2018, 12:20:35 PM
I'm not sure that it can really be adequately described to someone who hasn't experienced it.  It's kind of like describing color to the blind or a symphony orchestra to the deaf.  The best I can come up with is encapsulated in this picture and with the analogy I wrote a few years ago.

I open my eyes and it's dark.  I'm in a box, dark, cramped, very small.  I feel around with my hands and its sealed.  There are no openings and there is no escape.  It's completely silent and as I begin to beat on the sides of the box the sound is muffled and I realize the box is buried underground and there is no escape.  I scream and nobody can hear, nobody can help.  Deep dark despair embraces me with its icy arms as I realize I  am trapped . . . alone . . . for eternity.



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That's a really powerful image! Add to that the idea that I kept myself in that box for years because I "knew" that no one would ever understand the real me and definitely never love the real me.

Thank you very much for sharing that Deborah!


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JessicaHF

Quote from: Sno on February 28, 2018, 01:47:13 PM
Oh hon.
Sadly I think it may be time for a new therapist - they are struggling and don't really, (want to), understand. This is normal for someone for whom, they have never asked that question of themselves.

As to an answer, I'm not sure there is one, but there is always a snarky retort of when my brain is congruent (aligned) with my body, it doesn't have to think to be able to move, act or respond - it is free. When it is free, I think more clearly, quite simply because I am not having to compensate for this misalignment. By not changing, the current level of psychological discomfort will continue at the present level, and that is contrary to the current therapeutic aim...

In other words, you're seeing your therapist to try to bring peace and an end to the relentless questioning and work to remember the role determined by your gender assigned at birth - you are supposed to be working towards treatments that bring about that peace, taking what interventions are needed.

At present you're trapped in an infinite loop trying to describe the indescribable to make someone comprehend, what is for them incomprehensible - this is why you need to think about making the change of therapist, at the moment they do not comprehend, and do not see a need to step outside of the status quo.

Big hugs, you can do this hon.


Rowan
My therapist did ask me that question, but it was my difficulty describing it that I'm struggling with. My therapist has said from our first appointment that in order for me to feel complete and fulfilled I need to stop suppressing my female side, even if that means transitioning to live fully as a woman. Since our first appointment she has also told me that, in her opinion, she's not sure how I suppressed my female side as long as I have and I need to stop trying to find "another answer" and accept my true self so others can start accepting my true self. So, basically I don't think my therapist is the problem.

Thank you for looking out for me though!



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JessicaHF



Quote from: Virginia on February 28, 2018, 01:38:29 PM
I was taught in a course on communication that facts are preferred to analogies, comparisons, judgments and value statements  because people do not share the same point of reference. An example: Rather than describing a person as "disgusting," it would be better to say "they pick their nose with their thumb."

The GD I experienced before starting hormones was a horrible horrible thing; total obsession with my gender to the point of being nearly impossible to think about anything else; an uncontrollable compulsion to express myself as a woman regardless of the consequences; a life sucking zombie-like funk that makes it barely possible to perform the basic functions of daily life.

During the six months before I was prescribed hormones:
-Weight fell from 173 to 146 pounds
-Two, maybe three hours of sleep a night
-Excruciating mental agony when addressed as "sir," even the thought of even being perceived as a guy
-Uncontrollable obsession with expressing myself as a woman to the point of taking a Herculean effort to think about or do absolutely anything else
-Shaved my body like a hairless cat
-Stopped biting my nails for the first time in 40 years
-Started growing out my lifelong short hair
-Pruned the caterpillars over my eyes into a shadow of their former Grouch Marx glory
-Started laser beard removal/electro
-Walking sitting, eating, pretty much doing everything like a girl
-Using my girl voice when I was presenting male to people I didn't know
-Wore eyeliner, lip gloss, bra and andro shoes to work every day. Andro womens tops or slacks to work every day. Tops AND slacks to work once a week and every evening and weekend.
And I was not only dysphoric about my maleness but also my femaleness.

Refusing to see how what I was doing was affecting my marriage and those around me, presenting as female in public once a week was the only thing that kept me going. I lived for the dream-like numbness, the precious hours of relief from the life-sucking malaise, the relief barely lasted until it was over. I was an addict waiting for my next fix. My wife and I were desperate for something, anything to give me peace or relief. It was a race between insanity and suicide, and I was running out of options.

Virginia,

Thanks for the reply! A lot of what you listed are things that I am currently experiencing.

I'm in a consistent depression that I can't seem to get out of, even with meds. This is caused me to not feel like eating and I've lost 30 pounds.

If I get 3 hours of sleep a night it's A LOT!

I find myself getting angry when people call me sir, even when I'm in full male mode. I have come to hate even writing my name.

My wife has asked that I not shave my legs, but everything else has been kept shaved for months now. My wife has been supportive to a point and Im grateful that she has been as understanding as she has, I'm struggling but trying to respect that.

Have shaped by eyebrows into a much more feminine shape

The hair on my head abandoned me years ago, but if I could I would be growing that out.

The list just keeps going...

My biggest obstacle has really been me. I love my wife very much and up until the point I couldn't suppress these feelings any longer, we really did have a storybook marriage. I am desperately trying not to blow that up. So I'm trying to give my wife time to acclimate to this newly aware part of me. My fear is that my GD will eventually destroy our marriage, but I'm hopeful that it won't.

Thanks for sharing your experience with me, I really do appreciate hearing your story.

Thanks,

Jessica

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Allison S

I knew I couldn't describe the negatives of gender dysphoria for others to understand. With cis people I put on a sort of mask of positivity. I don't hide my transness but technically gender dysphora can be relatable to cis people by talking about depression and anxiety. Which is a reality for most trans people too, but often transitioning is our treatment.

I'm probably still closed off because suffering from depression most of my life and paying for it, I never got the help I needed until recently.

Talking about the suffering is important and everyone should be able to. But I think when others just don't or can't understand then they're missing out.

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FinallyMichelle

I had documentation from the 80s, lots and lots of documentation, and my therapists still thought they could cure me. They didn't believe in transition as a cure at all they thought that it was something that they fix and were almost hostile in how they treated me.

I don't know. No one who has not felt this can understand, no one. I don't even try anymore. But you have to make a few accept.

It was a wave for me. Have you ever been to the beach as a child? I went running out into the surf and played and played, then that one big wave hit. It drug me under and rolled me against the sand then pulled me under and out. It wasn't really scary at first, just another fun bit of the day. It let go a little just as the next wave hit. I never even got to breathe before I was under again... wait I can stand. Another hit me and shoved me under. It seemed like forever, the pressure in my chest and in my head. My world narrowed and the only thing that existed was that pressure, and the darkness that was starting to take over everything. Rolling over and over.

When I was a child my uncle grabbed me by the leg or something and lifted me out of the water. No one was there for me when dysphoria crashed over me.

When the shrinks asked me what it felt like I told them the truth.
It's a need so overpowering that it consumes every spare breath. A pressure against the inside of me that feels like it is breaking my skin and bones as it pushes out. An ache that hurts so deep that I don't know how I can go on. It was a dark wave crashing over me dragging me down to where the sunlight would never find me and I would spend an eternity aching for breath in my lungs.

It a screaming agony that climbs up to the back of your throat but won't come out, it just pushes and pushes until that pain, that darkness consumes you. That is what dysphoria is. Pain so deep that it brings with it the end of hope.

No one can understand that need that hasn't felt it. It wasn't hard to make every one of those idiots see, this was all of me. All that I had. I don't know how to help you but I don't have to do I, you know the ache. All you have to do is express that.

Sorry that I can't be more help.
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Dena

All of the points made in this thread are valid however you can get the message across to others by asking the to try explaining color to a blind person. Without a frame of reference, it's nearly impossible for a CIS person to understand dysphoria. I have been trying to come up with a description for around 40 years and I still don't have one.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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  •  

just

When I first talked to my doctor about my dysphoria she described it like a noise. Like a constant ringing in your head that is not supposed to be there, all of the time. Reminding you every waking moment of every day that your body isn't yours and your name isn't yours and your life isn't yours, and I had never thought of it like that before but it made a lot of sense to me.
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TonyaW

Quote from: Faith on February 28, 2018, 01:40:54 PM
They will never really grasp it without experiencing it. I've broached one scenario with two people that asked, they were both female.

First, I ask how often the think about being female rather than just being. That gets them thinking.
Then I ask, how do you think you'd feel waking up tomorrow with your breasts gone and a penis stuck on you.

The look on their face is enough to show it made an impact. I also know that despite that they will still never really understand ... and they don't need to.
I said something similar to this to my grandson (10 yo at the time) after he started to notice and asked questions.  I asked him "you are a boy, right"?  He said yes, so then I asked "how would you feel if you had a girls body"?  He replied that he would HATE it. 

So he got the basic idea but I don't think that fully explains it and I'm not sure you can fully understand it if you don't experience it.



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SaraDanielle

For me, what I recognize as dysphoria, seems to be a frustration that builds through the day and culminates in an angry unlikable person in the evening.  I've come home too many nights, angry that this is how I am, to not do something..Before this surfaced I was usually a cheery person.

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