Is Jack Sparrow one of Us?

[RebeccaFog]

Don't ask.  Don't tell.

[Suzie]

No, it's just eyeliner and mascara.

I still want him to do me though...he's so hot!

[Doc]

I thought the running joke was that J. Depp modeled the character on Keith Richards of the Stones.

Depp did admit that he modeled Jack Sparrow's physical mannerisms after those of Keith Richards. The swaying and the hand-gestures which are both jerky and liquid. I have not observed Keith Richards enough to know if it was an accurate imitation. I believed, on seeing the original film, that Depp was portraying Sparrow as suffering from the kind of motor-control anomalies that occur with neurosyphilis, which would have been historically accurate. Everybody in the early eighteenth century had syphilis.

Yeah, it's true, about men wearing makeup then. And holding hands and kissing each other without it being a sexual thing, precisely. Fruity pirate garb is indeed a poor man's version of the 'metrosexual' of the day, who would have been called 'macaroni' and worn make-up, mixed in with naval costumery.

To further muddy things, Depp read a book called Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition (by Barry Burg) and liked it. Knock a couple of points off Depp, because I thought it was dumb. In any case, historian Burg attempts ceaselessly to convince us, with thin and often silly evidence, that all early eighteenth century anglo-american pirates were gay as christmas trees. Anyway, Depp said that the book was very interesting and that he would henceforth play Jack Sparrow 'more gay.' And the world said, "More gay?"

Probably Johnny Depp is interested in gender ambiguity. He could play any part he wanted, but very often chooses to play characters who are sexually and gender ambiguous in one way or another.

[Pica Pica]

does that say something about johnny i wonder? Do i care i also wonder?

[tekla]

To begin with, I find J. Depp as good as any actor I've ever watched.  He has an amazing array of roles that he has done so far.

But (and I don't do this often, it seems like tales out of school or something) I spend a few days last year constructing a ramp from the stage (20 feet high) to the dressing area for the Stones last tour in SF.  It had a couple of switchbacks, and we padded and taped some of the edges and corners on them, as a precaution.  As we were finishing one of the Stones management people (and the Stones have more management than General Motors or Citibank, largely because they make about the same amount of money) comes by and inspects the work.

"Nah, it needs more, see Keith is going to come down (at this point he starts to do this sort of half stumble / half walk / half swagger down the ramp bumping into places), and you need to pad it for him."  So we did.  Hey, we were in OT anyway, another hour easy.  Fast Forward to two days later, when I was running a truss spot that was right above the ramp I had built.  And I look down and watch Keith walk down that ramp just like Mister Manager said he would, hitting every point this guy hit.  Amazing.

And pirates (not the romantic notion of today, but the true terrorists of yesterday) often wore women's clothes, they wore whatever they could plunder.  Name of the game there.  Nothing sexual to it.  Women were raped and tossed overboard, as traveling with a woman on a ship was considered unlucky.

[Doc]

And pirates (not the romantic notion of today, but the true terrorists of yesterday) often wore women's clothes, they wore whatever they could plunder.  Name of the game there.  Nothing sexual to it.  Women were raped and tossed overboard, as traveling with a woman on a ship was considered unlucky.

Oh, actually there is a fair amount of good historical documentation showing early eighteenth-century anglo-american pirates having opportunities to rape women and not doing so. My major objection to Barry Burg's Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition is that he claims this as evidence that they were gay.

There is also quite a lot of historical evidence of female-bodied sailors dressed as men, throughout the 'Age of Sail.' Very often these stories end somewhat boringly, with the FTM sailor being well-known to be female among the ship's company, and everybody just politely pretending not to notice.

It was also common practice for certain members of the crew to bring their wives along. Said wives were respected and useful crewmembers. What was 'unlucky' was bringing along prostitutes, 'girlfriends' or other females of questionable sexual loyalties, as this tended to cause men to fight. Which was, by the way, forbidden on early eighteenth century anglo-american pirate ships -- their articles consistantly demand that if crewmembers have a quarrel and want to settle it with violence they've got to wait 'til the ship reaches land and duel on shore.

[Pica Pica]

very democratic lot on the whole, in those conditions it was needed. Isn't that another bit of evidence in the book, he does try to make it sound like a camp floating civil paradise away from the tyranny of land.

[Doc]

Indeed, they did 'invent' democracy. Pirate captains of that period had extremely limited powers, and basically only had decision-making powers when the ship was attacking something or fleeing, and he did not recieve special rights like captains of merchant or naval ships, who got private rooms and special food. Aside from the emergency combat/flee situations, everything was decided by a vote. Though it seems that sometimes the voting had a funny rule attached to it, that you needed to be drunk or at least inclined to be if supplies to do so had been at hand.

The egalitarian nature of 'pirate culture' is pretty well documented, those guys wrote up quite detailed articles that essentially outlined a system of government for the ship, all more or less the same during that hey-day period of piracy, and very much directed at preventing tyrannical rule aboard the ship.

Sort of a civil paradise, except the population has to steal everything it needs and is at war with approximately everybody else in the world.

History books about pirates by Marcus Redicker are a lot of fun, and very well researched.

[tekla]

Except for a few "hell's angels" type pirates, most operated under what is quaintly known as a "Letter of Marque" making them state-supported, economic terrorists.

AND.... "eighteenth-century anglo-american pirates" is not exactly the majority of pirates, its was not called "The Spanish Main" because there were so many English types hanging out there. (we just don't get it, they have been here in the Caribbean for years, but they never tan)  Most pirates were French or Spanish.  (Hint, because the French and Spain were at war, more or less - but mostly more - during that time.)  Most of the English were smugglers, violating British Colonial Trading Policies, not outright pirates.  Though their violation of trade laws rendered them unto pirates when caught on the high seas (think: hung by the neck until dead) that was not what they were really doing.

And they might have 'invented democracy' had those darn Greeks not beat them to it a few centuries before.

[Doc]

Those aren't pirates, they're privateers.

The end of the War of Spanish Succession in 1713 caused a staggering drop in sailor's wages and a couple of years later an explosion of piracy in the Atlantic. Essentially, poor and infrequent and often stolen pay coupled with deadly working conditions and a legal system that allowed even merchant captains to do things like beat you to death with a dried elephant's penis that he calls 'the Persuader' caused a bunch of workers to murder the management and take over the factory. Ship, rather. There was a decade or so where there were a lot of these ships going about where the crew had disposed of the ship's owner's representatives and made the vessel their own, complete with its own interesting system of psuedo-government, and were using it to attack other ships and steal stuff out of them, and recruit new pirates. It's this specific little period that our whatchocallit, cultural-image-thingie of 'pirates' is recollecting.

True enough that a lot of the historical 'pirates' you can name were from outside that period, and were privateers, or were privateers who didn't stop when their letters were withdrawn and thus became illegal and pirates.

-------------

Uh, the above'd make more sense but you edited your post. And sure, early eighteenth-century anglo-american pirates cannot be the majority of pirates, what with all the rest of the history of trade by sea. They're just the pirates we're talking about, movie pirates are a fun romaticized depiction of early eighteenth-century anglo-american pirates.

[tekla]

Outside of Hogan's Heroes, is there say, a "fun romaticized depiction of early" Nazis?  Didn't think so.

I hate romantic versions of anything.  Mob guy are not cute movie types or Soprano types.  They are cold blooded killers.  Nazis are nazis, pirates are pirates.  Not much cute about either one in real life.

However... "Those aren't pirates, they're privateers."

Touché, but that's a distinction that few of us really understand.  After all, we do label, Sir Francis Drake as a pirate, when in fact, he was a privateer.

[Seshatneferw]

Outside of Hogan's Heroes, is there say, a "fun romaticized depiction of early" Nazis?  Didn't think so.

Not yet, anyway -- the Nazis are still pretty recent, and have got a rather extreme reputation (and deservedly so). Their time will come, though: there is already a rather nasty fringe that romanticises them, and in a couple of centuries it won't be illegal to show swastikas in Germany. Anyway, the point is that it's hard to think of a group which was so atrocious that it did not eventually get romanticised.

However... "Those aren't pirates, they're privateers."

Touché, but that's a distinction that few of us really understand.  After all, we do label, Sir Francis Drake as a pirate, when in fact, he was a privateer.

Originally, there was not too much of a distinction: the first letters of marque were pretty much along the lines of "Oh, the French stole your ship? Please gather some men and recover your losses from them. Love and kisses, King Edward".

However, long before Sir Francis the kings started using letters of marque also as a way to raise extra fighting ships, somewhat as a naval analogue to modern-day Blackwater. Drake himself, while mostly on the profit-oriented side of privateering, was a vice admiral during the Grand Armada incident, commanding the English fleet (along with vice admiral Sir John Hawkins and under Baron Howard of Effingham, who as Lord High Admiral laid out the overall strategy but stayed ashore). Not that these naval ranks mean exactly what they do nowadays, of course.

  Nfr

[RebeccaFog]

Say.  Where did I leave my dried elephant penis?   

If you see it, please return it. Oh.  And DON'T get it wet.

[NicholeW.]

Ummm, Reeb. I was sure you wouldn't miss it. I have sent it by pm. Sorry, it was just laying there and I was curious. *blush*

Nichole

[Pica Pica]

Say.  Where did I leave my dried elephant penis?   

If you see it, please return it. Oh.  And DON'T get it wet.

cos no one wants a wet elephant penis

[NicholeW.]

Yuck, Pica!!! It WASN'T WET!!!! *terribly blushing now* And still isn't!!!

[RebeccaFog]

Stop bickering you two and get me my penis back.

I have a crew to whip.

[Pica Pica]

  spit me drink

[NicholeW.]

Here. But you're gonna have to get it off the elephant!!! LOL

[RebeccaFog]

Whoever filmed that was giggling.